They're Still Out There! 22 22

[Randall Dowling]

47 minutes ago, N e r V said:

Eh, I don’t know. Depending on the book and the pedigree I pay more for one just like I do for white pages vs lesser quality. White mountain, Spokane , River city, Aurora, Cosmic Aeroplane, etc.. will usually get me to pony up a bit more. Probably a bigger premium if it’s a 40’s or 50’s pedigree vs SA and BA books but I still go harder for one. 
 

So I guess I’m in the minority ?

Depends on the pedigree, right?  I wouldn't pay more for Crowley or Crippen books.  But I would generally accept a premium for Church, Reilly, or Allentown books, etc.  

I think the declarations that this collection is immediately on par with the Church collection is premature until the market gets a chance to look at them up close.  Until then, talk of these books being worth multiples of current value just sounds like auction hype to me.  And there's an awful lot of that going on.   

[tth2]

2 hours ago, FlyingDonut said:

On 5/22/2021 at 8:28 PM, tth2 said:

That good old muggy Washington DC weather!

My air conditioning bill to keep white paged books white is astronomical.

Tell me about it.  I live in one of the few places on earth that is even more humid than DC! 

[tth2]

2 hours ago, N e r V said:

Eh, I don’t know. Depending on the book and the pedigree I pay more for one just like I do for white pages vs lesser quality. White mountain, Spokane , River city, Aurora, Cosmic Aeroplane, etc.. will usually get me to pony up a bit more. Probably a bigger premium if it’s a 40’s or 50’s pedigree vs SA and BA books but I still go harder for one. 
 

So I guess I’m in the minority ?

Pedigrees for which I would personally pay a premium over comparable non-pedigreed books: 

Church, Reilly, Allentown, Spokane, Vancouver, Curator

 

[N e r V]

I think the reason people will pay more for certain pedigrees is you have an expectation of what you will get with that book if you’re familiar with that pedigree. Someone posted before about how certain pedigrees differ with their own characteristics.

So since we know all books aren’t equal just because their numbers might be the same and you should always judge each book on its own merits having that advance benefit of expectation can give you more comfort/confidence in your purchase.

Anyway that’s the best way I can explain it. I’m sure others might disagree.

[sfcityduck]

3 hours ago, Randall Dowling said:

 

I think the declarations that this collection is immediately on par with the Church collection is premature until the market gets a chance to look at them up close.  Until then, talk of these books being worth multiples of current value just sounds like auction hype to me.  And there's an awful lot of that going on.   

To be fair, Matt and Brian on the video both declared that the Promise Collection was not quite the quality of the Mile High or San Francisco.  And some of the grading issues have got to impact some buyers views of certain books.

But, I'd bet these books are going to get multiples because of the story behind the collection, especially for the non-marque books.  Interesting none of you guys are mentioning Okajimas in a discussion of multiples.

Edited May 24, 2021 by sfcityduck

[sagii]

Can someone in a nutshell explain the reason the Detroit Trolley books were not designated an 'official' pedigree again? 

[N e r V]

I think the story is an interesting part of a pedigree but doesn’t really impact the price as much as it does other collectibles. Maybe because it’s usually a lot of books in a ped and there’s no direct link to someone or something famous like a Hollywood collectible might have. A car Steve McQueen drove in a movie or red slippers Judy Garland wore in Oz have a premium due to that. Maybe if a Humphrey Bogart collection of crime comics that he personally bought off the stands emerges you might see a premium attached to that ped…

Edited May 24, 2021 by N e r V

[Robot Man]

8 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I think the story is an interesting part of a pedigree but doesn’t really impact the price as much as it does other collectibles. Maybe because it’s usually a lot of books in a ped and there’s no direct link to someone or something famous like a Hollywood collectible might have. A car Steve McQueen drove in a movie or red slippers Judy Garland wore in Oz have a premium due to that. Maybe if a Humphrey Bogart collection of crime comics that he personally bought off the stands emerges you might see a premium attached to that ped…

I have a few books from Jerry Garcia’s Collection. Being a Grateful Dead fan, it is so cool owning a book he held and read. 

[N e r V]

I also don’t know what premium that the Okajimas might be getting but that story has a bit more of history in the US part of WW2 than most of the other peds have IMO. Other stories might be interesting for sure but might not resonate like that one does. Kind of like Anne Frank was just one girl but her story represented an entire generation of what happened to her…

[N e r V]

2 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I have a few books from Jerry Garcia’s Collection. Being a Grateful Dead fan, it is so cool owning a book he held and read. 

See I’m not a fan of their music but that might have value to me based on his ice cream. Love it!

 

[Robot Man]

11 hours ago, tth2 said:

Pedigrees for which I would personally pay a premium over comparable non-pedigreed books: 

Church, Reilly, Allentown, Spokane, Vancouver, Curator

 

If you like blinding, bone white pages, you need to add a Salida to your collection. Problem is, they are pretty much impossible to find. All locked up in private collections. 

[N e r V]

10 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

If you like blinding, bone white pages, you need to add a Salida to your collection. Problem is, they are pretty much impossible to find. All locked up in private collections. 

Heritage has had them. After a quick search this ones available now and won’t destroy your budgets. You’re right though, nice pedigree.

 

[sfcityduck]

34 minutes ago, N e r V said:

I also don’t know what premium that the Okajimas might be getting but that story has a bit more of history in the US part of WW2 than most of the other peds have IMO. Other stories might be interesting for sure but might not resonate like that one does. Kind of like Anne Frank was just one girl but her story represented an entire generation of what happened to her…

To me the Okajima pedigree is best, when it comes to the WWII propaganda books, because of the irony and injustice of the internment.  

But, just as comic collectors became knowledgeable about the Japanese internment because of Okajimas, the Promise Collection is, I suspect, going to lead comic collectors to learn about the Korean War in much greater depth.

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

1 minute ago, sfcityduck said:

To me the Okajima pedigree is best, when it comes to the WWII propaganda books, because of the irony and injustice of the internment.  

But, just as comic collectors became knowledgeable about the Japanese internment because of Okajimas, the Promise Collection is, I suspect, going to lead comic collectors to learn about the Korean War in much greater depth.

I've been slowly working through a book on how the US dealt with Chinese POW's in Korea. It's a tough read so I've put it down a couple of times but I was surprised to find out how many of those POW's wound up in Taiwan. Fairly pertinent to today's news.

[batman_fan]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

If you like blinding, bone white pages, you need to add a Salida to your collection. Problem is, they are pretty much impossible to find. All locked up in private collections. 

[Mmehdy]

16 hours ago, tth2 said:

Pedigrees for which I would personally pay a premium over comparable non-pedigreed books: 

Church, Reilly, Allentown, Spokane, Vancouver, Curator

 

I will second that, it's just certain pedigrees have a "extra added value" to an all ready great GA comic. book. I know that certain famous coin collections always add the fact that they were formally in the famous  coin collection of like the Sheik of Saudi Arabia or something like that. Also in the art world, especially say the "Charles Martignette" collection sold on the same website HA.com all of the additional  information or history  adds value or perception of value or authentication of source to the item itself. When everything is and done on the sale of this collection, it will be quality and condition wise that will create one of the top 5 of the 61 GA  comic book pedigree's  ever documented.

 But the marketplace will determine how much each book will go for which is different than the Church and SF collections which were sold from comic shop dealers to collectors. I can remember at the time a great backlash when Chuck came in to SDCC with that table full of MH's and other dealers saying he was ripping off everyone etc...everybody said they were to much money, same with SF books which were priced about 2x times guide. However, as time has shown, the price paid in the long run was a true bargain and they turned out to be amazing buys. So in this collection with a wider buyer  audience and probably higher prices paid, slowly just like the church and SF collections, these ultra great books get put in GA collections holes and are not gonna come out for a very time. Meaning part of the price of 5x or 10 guide today is that the numbers of available books have dwindled thus the price explosion. This will happen again, as history repeats itself. As time goes on, and more Promise books are put in those collections, the availabilty from that collection will decrease, thus the market price will increase. That is why some smart GA comic book collectors/dealers are gonna buy like 20 books with the intention to sell 3/5 years down the line 10 and thus get the other 10 for free. Not a bad plan, I told him if you have the power and will to simply put them away and forget about them , not having giving in to the tempting 50% profit  after two years.

 Church and Riley just add value to the existing GA comic book period. How much added value is up to the individual collector. In my discussions with my Dealer/Collector friend he has got it down to a science. He is gonna target books in which the Promise collection which out grades the Church or Riley collection  after doing research to see if there are any matches or same existing book. I understand get the highest grade of the 3 pedigree's which might even add extra demand. Interesting approach, and there probably another dozen ways to do it.

I think it boils down to me, that first I want the book and second if it is a pedigree copy especially Church or SF..or one top five, to adjust my price upwards from previous sales, GPA, and Overstreet (for whatever that is worth).  

 The Pedigree adds value to the overall GA comic book  total Package.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Mmehdy

[cheetah]

3 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I will second that, it's just certain pedigrees have a "extra added value" to an all ready great GA comic. book. I know that certain famous coin collections always add the fact that they were formally in the famous  coin collection of like the Sheik of Saudi Arabia or something like that. Also in the art world, especially say the "Charles Martignette" collection sold on the same website HA.com all of the additional  information or history  adds value or perception of value or authentication of source to the item itself. When everything is and done on the sale of this collection, it will be quality and condition wise that will create one of the top 5 of the 61 GA  comic book pedigree's  ever documented.

 But the marketplace will determine how much each book will go for which is different than the Church and SF collections which were sold from comic shop dealers to collectors. I can remember at the time a great backlash when Chuck came in to SDCC with that table full of MH's and other dealers saying he was ripping off everyone etc...everybody said they were to much money, same with SF books which were priced about 2x times guide. However, as time has shown, the price paid in the long run was a true bargain and they turned out to be amazing buys. So in this collection with a wider buyer  audience and probably higher prices paid, slowly just like the church and SF collections, these ultra great books get put in GA collections holes and are not gonna come out for a very time. Meaning part of the price of 5x or 10 guide today is that the numbers of available books have dwindled thus the price explosion. This will happen again, as history repeats itself. As time goes on, and more Promise books are put in those collections, the availabilty from that collection will decrease, thus the market price will increase. That is why some smart GA comic book collectors/dealers are gonna buy like 20 books with the intention to sell 3/5 years down the line 10 and thus get the other 10 for free. Not a bad plan, I told him if you have the power and will to simply put them away and forget about them , not having giving in to the tempting 50% profit  after two years.

 Church and Riley just add value to the existing GA comic book period. How much added value is up to the individual collector. In my discussions with my Dealer/Collector friend he has got it down to a science. He is gonna target books in which the Promise collection which out grades the Church or Riley collection  after doing research to see if there are any matches or same existing book. I understand get the highest grade of the 3 pedigree's which might even add extra demand. Interesting approach, and there probably another dozen ways to do it.

I think it boils down to me, that first I want the book and second if it is a pedigree copy especially Church or SF..or one top five, to adjust my price upwards from previous sales, GPA, and Overstreet (for whatever that is worth).  

 The Pedigree adds value to the overall GA comic book  total Package.

For me, it was always the book first.  White pages, no browning on the edges, looking like it was freshly printed.  Most times when you find the book, it then follows it is the Church copy.  Sheer volume leads to the Church books being more available, more noticeable, more collectible, and more likely to fetch a high price.  Don't get me wrong, the other peds are very nice but the quantity and name recognition of the Church books almost always makes them the copy to go after if you want an immaculate 80-year old book.

I should add that since I was never a big collector of the top 100 GA books, the Church copies were almost always the only high-quality ped available.  Some Allentowns, some Pennsylvanias, almost never any SF copies.  Church and Crowley were the primary choices of well structurally-preserved books and Crowleys were always a distant also-ran compared to the Churchs.  They are just much more common and easy to find in many titles.

Edited May 24, 2021 by cheetah
had another stray thought

[The Lions Den]

20 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Like you, I will pay a premium for page quality. I paid north of $5K for this book because it had white pages and was graded in the era when CGC was more strict about page quality. I really didn't care about the pedigree designation. If the pages had been OW/W, then I would not have bid over $2,500. CGC has relaxed their page quality standards quite a bit, so "WHITE" doesn't mean what it used to, but even with newer slabs, I'll bid more for WHITE than for OW/W. (I don't bid on anything below OW/W unless the book is in an old-label slab, and then I'll occasionally go down to OW.)

That's a sweet looking copy!  

Yes, many older slabs tend to have pretty strict page quality standards, largely because certain primary graders back then were tough on page quality...   

[Aman619]

I like pedigree copies because they usually mean a high grade copy. That’s what I’ve collected.  Unlike many of you, If offered two copies same book, one a pedigree in one not but in same grade, same price, I’d choose the pedigree.  Higher priced? Maybe not.  A LOT higher priced? Nope.  But if the non pedigree was a higher grade, I’d go for it over the pedigree.  Because as I stated up front: I like pedigrees because they usually mean a high grade copy.  If it’s a lower grade, why?  Does not compute.

as for the back story? Doesn’t do anything for me. Found in Santa’s workshop? Ok.  In an internment camp? Cool.  Whatever.  Don’t we always say “buy the book, not the label?”

[Robot Man]

1 hour ago, cheetah said:

For me, it was always the book first.  White pages, no browning on the edges, looking like it was freshly printed.  Most times when you find the book, it then follows it is the Church copy.  Sheer volume leads to the Church books being more available, more noticeable, more collectible, and more likely to fetch a high price.  Don't get me wrong, the other peds are very nice but the quantity and name recognition of the Church books almost always makes them the copy to go after if you want an immaculate 80-year old book.

I should add that since I was never a big collector of the top 100 GA books, the Church copies were almost always the only high-quality ped available.  Some Allentowns, some Pennsylvanias, almost never any SF copies.  Church and Crowley were the primary choices of well structurally-preserved books and Crowleys were always a distant also-ran compared to the Churchs.  They are just much more common and easy to find in many titles.

The Church books when they came out, were not “maximized”. For the most part, they probably still aren’t. At least I hope not. They were true freaks of nature. They redefined at the time what “mint” and “white pages” really meant. 

Hard to confirm if the Promise books are truly the best copies in existence. Sounds like most, if not all, have had something done to them. I guess if you simply take the biased word of CGC saying they are the highest graded on their census, I guess it justifys the record prices they will surely bring to a lot of buyers. 

There is the Church collection and there is everything else.