They're Still Out There! 22 22

[D84]

At this point, I assume any new to market books are altered (pressed). It's the world we live in now.

There was a point when restoration was considered a good thing. In time, we shall see how pressing is viewed by future collectors.

Edited May 24, 2021 by D84

[cheetah]

21 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

The Church books when they came out, were not “maximized”. For the most part, they probably still aren’t. At least I hope not. They were true freaks of nature. They redefined at the time what “mint” and “white pages” really meant. 

Hard to confirm if the Promise books are truly the best copies in existence. Sounds like most, if not all, have had something done to them. I guess if you simply take the biased word of CGC saying they are the highest graded on their census, I guess it justifys the record prices they will surely bring to a lot of buyers. 

There is the Church collection and there is everything else. 

You can look through the census and see where the Church books have been pressed.  I think the new pedigree labels have prompted a number of resubmissions and pressing.  From my experience, the original  label books were often unpressed but the second generation labels are where the amount of pressing became common.  FWIW, a lot of the Church books did not get significant improvement from pressing.  I did a comparison many years ago and my feeling was most of the church books had already reached their maximum potential.  Granted, Matt Nelson’s skills have continued to improve and what couldn’t ‘press up’ 10 years ago is probably a gimme 0.2 increase now.

[comicdonna]

18 hours ago, sagii said:

Can someone in a nutshell explain the reason the Detroit Trolley books were not designated an 'official' pedigree again? 

I think it was partially because they were purchased in batches from the family, in combination with being dispersed into collections, some slabbed, and there was no notation on the label.  By the time CGC became more lenient in naming pedigrees and adding to their list, I think they  felt it was too hard to distinguish these books as Detroit Trolleys.  At the time of release, I remember seeing numerous books that had a similar L that were not Trolley books.   There was Marnin's list but, he wasn't on great terms with CGC at the time.  

[sagii]

15 minutes ago, comicdonna said:

I think it was partially because they were purchased in batches from the family, in combination with being dispersed into collections, some slabbed, and there was no notation on the label.  By the time CGC became more lenient in naming pedigrees and adding to their list, I think they  felt it was too hard to distinguish these books as Detroit Trolleys.  At the time of release, I remember seeing numerous books that had a similar L that were not Trolley books.   There was Marnin's list but, he wasn't on great terms with CGC at the time.  

Thank you! 

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, cheetah said:

Granted, Matt Nelson’s skills have continued to improve and what couldn’t ‘press up’ 10 years ago is probably a gimme 0.2 increase now.

From what I understand, Matt is involved with grading books most of the time...  

[cheetah]

23 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

From what I understand, Matt is involved with grading books most of the time...  

I’m out of date.  Too long since I played the pressing game.

[sagii]

61 Pedigrees. 'Recognized' anyway 

I don't think we have Threads dedicated to each one do we? Or maybe we do. There are a few i don't recall seeing Threads for though

[Robot Man]

1 hour ago, cheetah said:

You can look through the census and see where the Church books have been pressed.  I think the new pedigree labels have prompted a number of resubmissions and pressing.  From my experience, the original  label books were often unpressed but the second generation labels are where the amount of pressing became common.  FWIW, a lot of the Church books did not get significant improvement from pressing.  I did a comparison many years ago and my feeling was most of the church books had already reached their maximum potential.  Granted, Matt Nelson’s skills have continued to improve and what couldn’t ‘press up’ 10 years ago is probably a gimme 0.2 increase now.

I’m not a high grade chaser and therefore not as astute as many of you guys. At first I thought you meant a pressed book was noted on the label but I know that isn’t what you meant. Although, in the fairness of full disclosure, it would sure be great to know.

I guess, I am still bit of an idealist and believe in the “old fashion” term of ethics. But I don’t wear rose colored glasses. Pressing them is just to great a temptation. 

I’m kind of glad to be at the twilight of my collecting career. Just not very proud at what this hobby has become. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Robot Man

[jimjum12]

2 hours ago, cheetah said:

a lot of the Church books did not get significant improvement from pressing.

Thank you for pointing this out, Jeff.

... many books won't improve with pressing. To think an organization that seeks a profit would apply a costly and time consuming procedure carte blanche to every unit they process is, well, ... fill in the blank. In fact, the higher the grade, the more likely a book does NOT need pressing. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimbo_7071]

44 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I’m not a high grade chaser and therefore not as astute as many of you guys. At first I thought you meant a pressed book was noted on the label but I know that isn’t what you meant. Although, in the fairness of full disclosure, it would sure be great to know.

I guess, I am still bit of an idealist and believe in the “old fashion” term of ethics. But I don’t wear rose colored glasses. Pressing them is just to great a temptation. 

I’m kind of glad to be at the twilight of my collecting career. Just not very proud at what this hobby has become. 

Agreed. For most people it's all about making a fast buck. The only thing you can do is try not to let them make a fast buck off of you. If you think a book has been pressed, pass it by. If you see a copy on the block less than five years after the last sale of the same copy, pass it by—no matter how high it is on your want list. Don't be an enabler.

 

[jimjum12]

1 minute ago, szav said:

Non pedigree, all day.  I know it may sound weird but in general, and perhaps selfishly,  I'd rather my books be my copies, not someone else's copies that I'm temporarily holding.  Yes I know, anything I have now was someone else's copy at some point (except maybe file copies), but they just feel like less mine when it's designated the soandso copy.  I'm guessing that its not an opinion many will share but it's what I like.

In general I agree and don't really care a ton for the pedigree stories in so far as paying for them, but the only one that I care enough about, and don't feel dumb for, paying a premium on is the Okajima.  I find the whole story very compelling and moving.  Let's just start with the fact that the OO of all these war and jungle comics is a girl, and then that she's unjustly interned but keeps her love for comics and presumably, as can be told by the sort of comics she's buying, her love for her country.  Comics themselves are an American story, and despite what her country did to her she seems to have maintained or bought into the American ideal.  Just guessing of course, who know's how she or her family really felt...but it's 100% cool to me that she collected while in the camp, and even after, and kept them for her whole adult life it seems.

The Okajima's I have feel like museum pieces that capture the undaunted American spirit of the era, almost like I shouldn't be able to own them.  None of the other pedigrees do that for me.  No I haven't been drinking...I just really like the Okajima's.  Love to show them to my non-comic collecting friends and tell them the story when they're in the mood to listen to me babble about comics.  Not sure the Promise books could ever have that same pull with me, unless the story is fleshed out and authenticated.  Till then, they're just high grade books to me.

Bottom line... at least for me, I would've loved comics even if there were no pedigrees. Some do add an extra element though. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

One thing I notice about pedigrees is that I can see the subtle differences through the slab that set them apart. Sometimes they have to be "in hand" for that to be obvious, though. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mmehdy]

14 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

Agreed. For most people it's all about making a fast buck. The only thing you can do is try not to let them make a fast buck off of you. If you think a book has been pressed, pass it by. If you see a copy on the block less than five years after the last sale of the same copy, pass it by—no matter how high it is on your want list. Don't be an enabler.

 

Jimbo, I think you need to be a bit more flexible and not assume every book sold in the last five years is pressed, a flip or whatever. I really do not think you can by buying any book, enable anyone to make a fast buck of "you" pressed or not. Until the CGC officially puts on every label whether in their professional opinion the book has been "permissibly" pressed we will never know with any kind of reasonable certainty in which to act or chose to buy. I believe, like you that the true meaning of "unrestored" is simple and a very easy term to understand. No "BUTs" whether pressing, cleaning etc etc...just simply the book which was bought at the newsstand untouched and THAT BOOK should be rewarded as a true example of something "untouched".

 I agree with you, but you cannot put a line in the sand and say 5 years, 5 months, or 5 minutes...each book needs to be judged on its own, looking back at history if available to see if that meets you standards for a blue label true unrestored GA comic booK. I know the arguments that the 
church books were indirectly or directly pressed by being stacked on one another. I understand that argument. But to me and probably similar in the "coin" field I do penalize some type of alteration. The opposite appears in the art world, where restoration is not a bad word and that it rescues the work itself.

 However I do not see how taking a untouched GA OO book and pressing it is rescuing anything other than profit maximization  for the seller.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Mmehdy

[Aman619]

2 hours ago, szav said:

Non pedigree, all day.  I know it may sound weird but in general, and perhaps selfishly,  I'd rather my books be my copies, not someone else's copies that I'm temporarily holding.  Yes I know, anything I have now was someone else's copy at some point (except maybe file copies), but they just feel like less mine when it's designated the soandso copy.  I'm guessing that its not an opinion many will share but it's what I like.

In general I agree and don't really care a ton for the pedigree stories in so far as paying for them, but the only one that I care enough about, and don't feel dumb for, paying a premium on is the Okajima.  I find the whole story very compelling and moving.  Let's just start with the fact that the OO of all these war and jungle comics is a girl, and then that she's unjustly interned but keeps her love for comics and presumably, as can be told by the sort of comics she's buying, her love for her country.  Comics themselves are an American story, and despite what her country did to her she seems to have maintained or bought into the American ideal.  Just guessing of course, who know's how she or her family really felt...but it's 100% cool to me that she collected while in the camp, and even after, and kept them for her whole adult life it seems.

The Okajima's I have feel like museum pieces that capture the undaunted American spirit of the era, almost like I shouldn't be able to own them.  None of the other pedigrees do that for me.  No I haven't been drinking...I just really like the Okajima's.  Love to show them to my non-comic collecting friends and tell them the story when they're in the mood to listen to me babble about comics.  Not sure the Promise books could ever have that same pull with me, unless the story is fleshed out and authenticated.  Till then, they're just high grade books to me.

Okajimas do have a compelling back story. Compared to the rest, they have real world consequences (although Reillys and Promise do too).  As for the little girl, a surprising aspect Ive learned about life in the cams is that it was generational in impact.  By that I mean that older Japanese Americans were hurt most. Adults too. Having been born here as Americans, and only lived here, it was bewildering and humiliating.  However for the kids it was a different story. Especially younger kids.  This was just their life. You had to be older and lost your way of life, and house and possessions to have been deeply impacted. The kids were just like all kids, finding things to do, playing, and they had their families with them.  When talk of reparations comes up within the Japanese communities, it is also generational.  The people who were kids then just don't feel so slighted, and want to move on while their parents are still angry!  This puts a strain on them because the elders are dying out and if the kids don't care to fight for justice (their homes were forfeited! businesses gone) justice will never come.

anyway, Great story: so watch the movies, read the books and bios.  Whats it got to do with which copy to add yo your collection?  

Though it is cool to have Pedigree copies. I left out one factor in my decision making, I may pay a higher Pedigree price if Im confident that OTHERS will want to as well when Im ready to let them go.  But, in the first years of CGC, the grade was a leveling of Pedigree importance.  Before independent grading, you bought the Pedigree copy over a no name copy because it had added significance = value in the hobby.  When no name copies showed up in higher grades, they were more desirable.  Theres been somewhat of a resurgence in Pedigree copies, even lesser grades.. which is a surprising show of strength!

 

[sfcityduck]

9 hours ago, szav said:

 Also, many of the young adults in the camps went straight from internment to enlisting in the military, definitely some out of coercion, or as a means to escape, but many willingly,  and not all ended up as bitter as you'd think. 

The Japanese internment was a shameful episode for our country, which unjustly ended up causing a lot of immigrants and their children, children who were fully U.S. citizens, to feel a sense of shame that only the political leaders who locked them up should have felt (and some did).  The impact of the pedigree, to me, is that the fact that these American youth read and enjoyed comic books reaffirms just how normal and American they were.  That Okajima read comics with a WWII propaganda theme was not unusual, it was normal.  Okajima was an American, and the comics emphasize the injustice and irony of the internment of American citizens (and immigrants who wanted nothing more that to be American citizens).

I have never read that there was any coercion to get American internees (anyone of draft age in the camps was likely born in America) into the military.  Instead, it was a patriotic reaction, which is all the more laudable given how they and their families were being treated.  

The Okajima collection has been a pedigree which, unlike any other, has educated comic collectors about important American history.  I expect that the Promise Collection will shock some people by doing so as well.  I don't think the SF collection had that impact because the limited history relevant to that story was well known.

Here's my bottom line:  Comics have no intrinsic value.  The only thing that sells a comic is how cool or significant they are in the view of comic collectors.  Pedigrees, rightly or wrongly, add a bit of a back story or desirability that boosts prices.  The pedigree is just another factor like whether comic contains a first appearance, is a number 1, has desirable art, is used in SOTI, etc.  And the pedigree is not an element of condition. There are many many non-pedigree comics that are "pedigree quality" but lack provenance, including, for example, the comics which have garnered the top 3 highest prices ever paid.

Edited May 25, 2021 by sfcityduck

[The Lions Den]

14 hours ago, cheetah said:

I’m out of date.  Too long since I played the pressing game.

No sweat, my fellow feline. I'm sure many people think the same thing...

[Badger]

On 5/22/2021 at 1:05 PM, lou_fine said:

Roy;

Exactly what book are you referring to here, since I seem to be getting lost in this maze of books that everybody's talking about here?  

If it's this copy of Subby 12, no matter how hard I look at the spine corners here, I don't really see much of a bindery corner issue here at all:  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/sub-mariner-comics-12-the-promise-collection-pedigree-timely-1943-cgc-vf-75-white-pages/p/7244-175250.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Preview-SearchResults-120115&lotPosition=23|0#

 

Wow. I love Subby #12. I have owned many copies but this one...hurts me. I know I've defended CGC grading on this Pedigree but I do not understand this one at all. Did someone take a pair of scissors to it? I do not see how that top edge is production related. Did the cover get cut a few times by the press? How is that possible? My current copy is below and I feel it is higher grade than the Promise copy. I'm assuming that's a sun or dust shadow on the back corner of the Promise copy. I miss the days when dust shadows and sun shadows counted as defects.

[The Lions Den]

13 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

Until the CGC officially puts on every label whether in their professional opinion the book has been "permissibly" pressed we will never know with any kind of reasonable certainty in which to act or chose to buy.

Some people are getting so good at pressing books it's even difficult for professional graders to tell...

[The Lions Den]

6 minutes ago, Badger said:

Wow. I love Subby #12. I have owned many copies but this one...hurts me. I know I've defended CGC grading on this Pedigree but I do not understand this one at all. Did someone take a pair of scissors to it? I do not see how that top edge is production related. Did the cover get cut a few times by the press? How is that possible? My current copy is below and I feel it is higher grade than the Promise copy. I'm assuming that's a sun or dust shadow on the back corner of the Promise copy. I miss the days when dust shadows and sun shadows counted as defects.

[Robot Man]

6 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Some people are getting so good at pressing books it's even difficult for professional graders to tell...

But when the professional grading companies are doing it themselves in house...