They're Still Out There! 22 22

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, Black Bat said:

6 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Yes always, even their weeklies get livestreamed 

I've followed their weekly Sunday auctions buy they've always been digital- never seen one with real people.

I know the Thursday Platinum portion of their Signature Auctions are always done with live auctioneers while their Saturday portion is not.  

Not sure about their Friday portions though since it's usually not comic books, so I tend to skipped that.  Doesn't appeared to be the case here though, as it seems that the Promise Collection is scheduled to hammer on June 18th which is a Friday and I highly suspect it will definitely be with the live auctioneers.  

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

12 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Ummm.....................wouldn't that simply be nothing more than the polar opposite of what many call here as being "gift grades" by CGC?  

I can appreciate where you're coming from; some books appear to be nicer than their assigned grade. But I'm sure there's a reason this book received a 7.0 instead of a higher grade. And I do hope you understand that "punishment grading" by any CGC grader would be grounds for immediate dismissal. There are some things CGC won't tolerate...

It should be pointed out that I was basing my comment on not just the picture of the front cover of the book, but also upon what the original boardie (who I believe is telling the truth here, even though others are seemingly hinting otherwise) said in quotes as to what was listed in the Grader's Notes plus his own visual analysis of the book vis-a-vis the Notes which I simply took at face value.  

As for my usage of "punishment grading", you are most likely seeing something in there that's probably more nefarious than what is actually intended.  From MY point of view, "undergrading" or "overgrading" is when a book is possibly off by only 1 or 2 grading condition levels which I would consider to be within reason since grading is really nothing more than just a subjective opinion at a particular point in time when a book crosses a grader's desk.  By "punishment grading" or "gift grading", from my own personal POV is when a book is off by 3 or more grading condition levels, because hey, these graders here are supposed to be so-called "experts" and I feel that would probably be beyond MY personal threshold or acceptable margin of error.  For some others here though, it sounds as though 5 or 6 grading condition levels might be acceptable, but that's alright also since it's really a case of to each their own.  

As for either "punishment grading" or "gift grading" (as per my definition above), it's probably much more a case of additional training required, as opposed to grounds for dismissal, and once again, this being from my own personal point of view here.    

Edited May 28, 2021 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, comicdonna said:

Yep,  It's one thing for someone to post a front cover scan of a book that has a large chunk out of the cover and is graded a 9.0  You can see the grade and a defect.  But, to post a 7.0 with a flawless front cover scan and no  back cover scan, it doesn't mean the book is under graded.  A back cover scan, and possibly a scan of the spine may be needed to show it is under graded.

Totally agree with you 100% and that is also exactly what I was alluding to in my prevous posts from up above, as repeated below here:    

10 hours ago, lou_fine said:

On 5/26/2021 at 11:11 AM, lou_fine said:

From the scan here, it would definitely appear that the book has been severely undergraded from my own personal point of view, although you cannot accurately grade a book without actually having it in hand. 

Although this is definitely true for books that might appear to be possibly undergraded, it is a lot easier to tell if a book is possibly overgraded from a scan, especially in the case of clear and obvious visual defects which other books in equivalent grades would generally not have. 

Unfortunately, although this would indeed appear to be common sense, I believe we cannot say such things on these boards here as it would get the acolytes' undies all in a knot and nonsensical stuff would spew out from their buttocks, instead of common sense from their little gray cells.    

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

I've heard that if you remove the book from the CGC case you'll find not only a back cover but also interior pages.....not all defects are on the front cover

I've heard that you should never ever pay for Graders' Notes because they do NOT list the major defect(s) that would take the book down beyond high grade, as they list only the most insignificant defects that would have the least amount of impact on the grade of a book.     

[The Lions Den]

5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

It should be pointed out that I was basing my comment on not just the picture of the front cover of the book, but also upon what the original boardie (who I believe is telling the truth here, even though others are seemingly hinting otherwise) said in quotes as to what was listed in the Grader's Notes plus his own visual analysis of the book vis-a-vis the Notes which I simply took at face value.  

I do agree that this book does look much nicer than the assigned grade. What I'm wondering is whether the current owner has seen the book outside the holder..?

 

11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

As for my usage of "punishment grading", you are most likely seeing something in there that's probably more nefarious than what is actually intended.  From MY point of view, "undergrading" or "overgrading" is when a book is possibly off by only 1 or 2 grading condition levels which I would consider to be within reason since grading is really nothing more than just a subjective opinion at a particular point in time when a book crosses a grader's desk.  By "punishment grading" or "gift grading", from my own personal POV is when a book is off by 3 or more grading condition levels, because hey, these graders here are supposed to be so-called "experts" and I feel that would probably be beyond MY personal threshold or acceptable margin of error.  For some others here though, it sounds as though 5 or 6 grading condition levels might be acceptable, but that's alright also since it's really a case of to each their own.  

You're right on about this. I thought you were implying that graders were deliberately hammering certain books for whatever reason. I can assure you that's not something that's tolerated by CGC, and there are safeguards in place to keep it from happening. In the case of the Promise books, I'm sure they were finalized by senior members of the grading staff, not newbies. So if the final grades fall into the "punishment" or "gift" category for you, it's likely those books would remain the same grade even if they're resubmitted. Because finalizers are generally very consistent in how they arrive at their grades, it would actually be very surprising and disappointing if they were inconsistent with their own assessments of the books. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's unlikely.

 

34 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

As for either "punishment grading" or "gift grading" (as per my definition above), it's probably much more a case of additional training required, as opposed to grounds for dismissal, and once again, this being from my own personal point of view here.    

As far as I know, periodic grading tests have always been a regular part of the program at CGC...

[lou_fine]

6 hours ago, tth2 said:

6 hours ago, batman_fan said:

everyone knows there is only one book worth any serious bidding in this auction 

 

Expand  

Wow!!!!  That book is amazing!!!!

How in the world can we tell since this is just a front cover scan only and as many have already said loudly and clearly here, tells us absolutely zippo about the rest of the book and its actual technical or visual condition?  

Lucky for you, I went and did my due diligence and checked out the back cover scan before placing my leading bid.  Then I realized the obvious error of my ways after reading some of these thought provoking posts here and realized that although the scans only showed 2 absolutely stunning and gorgeous pages of this 68-page book, is it possible that the other 66 pages within the covers might just be all blank or just a POS.    

Hope somebody here takes out my high bid or I might just have to contact HA to cancel my bid, but most of all, I hope the owner of this book here had the smarts to check out all 68 pages of the book after they had brought it.  

[The Lions Den]

13 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I've heard that you should never ever pay for Graders' Notes because they do NOT list the major defect(s) that would take the book down beyond high grade, as they list only the most insignificant defects that would have the least amount of impact on the grade of a book.     

There are times where the grading notes have been helpful for me, especially on more expensive books. And the majority of the notes are usually entered by the pre-graders...

[lou_fine]

17 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I do agree that this book does look much nicer than the assigned grade. What I'm wondering is whether the current owner has seen the book outside the holder..?

 

From the way that I read his post, the current owner (i.e. sfcityduck) was the submittor of the book and had intended to sell it, but probably had a change of heart after the book came back from grading.  

 

17 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

As far as I know, periodic grading tests have always been a regular part of the program at CGC...

Wow, learn something new all the time here as I never realized this, but definitely good to hear. 

I just hope this process doesn't have a negative impact on their turnaround times here.      

Edited May 28, 2021 by lou_fine

[jimbo_7071]

7 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

There is no panic, only reality here. 5000+ OO GA books with 95% top grade speaks for itself. There is no hype either, its one the last OO GA comic book collections on this size to ever appear. I do not believe that any SF copy or Chuck copy original purchaser has ever lost on those buys. Yes this is 2021. You can buy an sell anything for any price at any time, however using common sense and purchasing from a collector's standpoint with an ability to hold these books for 3+ years I do no see a number of re-sold at a loss with that program in mind. Are widget buyers more likely to lose, yes if they have no holding power. If you are a collector, a TCBC who is buying the book itself in the best possible condition, then I disagree with you  that  a loss  always happens with over hyped auctions. This is not over hype, but the real deal.

But Mitch, you know that auctions like this always attract newbies who will lose interest in the hobby in less than three years. Many of these books will resurface in a year or two. Some will never be seen again.

Unfortunately, most of my Grails are from 1939—1942, so I don't expect to see any books that I'll feel compelled to go "all in" on, and it would be hard for me to justify paying a strong price for any book that isn't a grail.

[jimjum12]

12 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

I can appreciate where you're coming from; some books appear to be nicer than their assigned grade. But I'm sure there's a reason this book received a 7.0 instead of a higher grade. And I do hope you understand that "punishment grading" by any CGC grader would be grounds for immediate dismissal. There are some things CGC won't tolerate...

I've deslabbed tons of books .... I leave the label in the back of the mylar for reference. While I occasionally find a 9.0 that looks 9.2, I don't believe I've ever deslabbed an 8.0 or lower that didn't become painfully obvious why it received the grade it did... stuff like 1'2" edge tears not visible through the slab... an 8.0 once that revealed a 6" NCB crease .... Books always have things not visible through the slab... always. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited May 28, 2021 by jimjum12

[tth2]

1 hour ago, jimjum12 said:

Books always have things not visible through the slab... always.

But apparently they become visible in a photo of the book in a slab.

[jimjum12]

I just put in my thrill bids  There are several more esoteric books that I might even be willing to pay "Stupid Money" for ... I'll have to think about it. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Mmehdy]

8 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

But Mitch, you know that auctions like this always attract newbies who will lose interest in the hobby in less than three years. Many of these books will resurface in a year or two. Some will never be seen again.

Unfortunately, most of my Grails are from 1939—1942, so I don't expect to see any books that I'll feel compelled to go "all in" on, and it would be hard for me to justify paying a strong price for any book that isn't a grail.

I think the new generation of "newbies" are plugged into the "marvel universe" full throttle. When it comes to GA...it the grails from 1939-1941 that is gonna attract them. But the beauty of this collection is about 0% care about All Winner's 19, 21 Phantom Lady. So, I think this promise collection does not fit their buy mode, as it is not easy unless you have some real collector interest or knowledge to chose the right ones among the over 5000 OO Ga books. Allentown, Billy Wright for sure they would be a major bone to contend with. I think the dealer/investor aspect...dealers who know the long term value of this collection book by book are going to be the bigger competition for the promise collection. They definitely  have the holding power and will wait for perfect timing on resale or to help pay for their very long term holds. There are so many promise books hitting the market over the next 18 months that every TCBC will have a shot for couple of these great books "newbie" free.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Mmehdy

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

25 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

I think the new generation of "newbies" are plugged into the "marvel universe" full throttle. When it comes to GA...it the grails from 1939-1941 that is gonna attract them. But the beauty of this collection is about 0% care about All Winner's 19, 21 Phantom Lady. So, I think this promise collection does not fit their buy mode, as it is not easy unless you have some real collector interest or knowledge to chose the right ones among the over 5000 OO Ga books. Allentown, Billy Wright for sure they would be a major bone to contend with. I think the dealer/investor aspect...dealers who know the long term value of this collection book by book are going to be the bigger competition for the promise collection. They definitely  have the holding power and will wait for perfect timing on resale or to help pay for their very long term holds. There are so many promise books hitting the market over the next 18 months that every TCBC will have a shot for couple of these great books "newbie" free.

I thought the horses were a bit slow out the gate, and decided those crypto guys must have more patience than I gave them credit for.  But maybe you’re right: maybe they’re not out there at all for this group. 
 

ive asked Heritage for a complete list of the collection. They may not want to give it out out of concern bidders might hold off until their one special book comes up. For whatever reason, they haven’t yet given it to me. I get the feeling, based on responses ive gotten so far, that they have not been giving out the full list to anyone.

but who knows. Maybe the crypto guys already know the lineup for the next 12 month rollout

Edited May 28, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[lou_fine]

Did you get a chance to ask about the Suspense run since I noticed that they already got the last half of the run graded and slabbed quite early on?  

Interested in where the classic cover Suspense 3 will end up in comparison to both the Penn and Church copies from a few years ago.  

Also the Suspense 4 which is apparently the toughest of the lot to find in grade, along with the Suspense 1 which I consider to be the poor man’s version of Suspense 3.  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

12 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Did you get a chance to ask about the Suspense run since I noticed that they already got the last half of the run graded and slabbed quite early on?  

Interested in where the classic cover Suspense 3 will end up in comparison to both the Penn and Church copies from a few years ago.  

Also the Suspense 4 which is apparently the toughest of the lot to find in grade, along with the Suspense 1 which I consider to be the poor man’s version of Suspense 3.  

I didn’t ask, and until you just now said, I didn’t know they were even in the pipeline 

[thehumantorch]

5 hours ago, jimjum12 said:

I've deslabbed tons of books .... I leave the label in the back of the mylar for reference. While I occasionally find a 9.0 that looks 9.2, I don't believe I've ever deslabbed an 8.0 or lower that didn't become painfully obvious why it received the grade it did... stuff like 1'2" edge tears not visible through the slab... an 8.0 once that revealed a 6" NCB crease .... Books always have things not visible through the slab... always. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

That's another good point.  Sometime there are defects, even on the front cover, that aren't easy to spot through the slab.

[The Lions Den]

11 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Wow, learn something new all the time here as I never realized this, but definitely good to hear. 

I just hope this process doesn't have a negative impact on their turnaround times here.  

In the olden days, tests were conducted by two graders (usually a pre-grader and a finalizer) going through a box of submissions together as they were finalized. In that way, the finalizer could point out certain details about each book to the pre-grader while still moving books through the system. It was very helpful and provided insight to both graders about why they graded the books a certain way. If there was a difference of opinion, the finalizer would seek another opinion from a different finalizer. This ultimately enabled the pre-grader and the finalizer to understand each other better and improve consistency. 

I would guess the current leadership has implemented a similar system to help improve the overall grading efficiency...

[LordRahl]

14 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I don't believe you are allow to say such positive things about a book that's been slabbed as only a CGC 7.0 graded copy, because that would be considered as absolutely blasphemous to the eyes and ears of somebody like his Lordship and his gang of loyal followers. 

Especially since we are supposed to be paying attention to the CGC label only and not try to relate it back to how the actual underlying book appears. 

Remember the mantra here:  Buy the label, not the book!!!     

So you lose an argument and resort to name calling and attempted belittling? Nice, very mature. While I will lose no sleep tonight since I don't know you, don't care to and couldn't possibly care less what your opinion of me is... I will say that if you stopped posing such unreasonable arguments like "punishment grading" (and yes, that was interpreted as being an intentional thing given what you chose to call it) maybe more people would actually listen to you as opposed to dismissing you out of hand as a batty conspiracy theorist with an anti-CGC agenda, which is what you come off as currently.

[LordRahl]

1 hour ago, thehumantorch said:

That's another good point.  Sometime there are defects, even on the front cover, that aren't easy to spot through the slab.

Oh absolutely. For anyone that has broken free more than a few books, this is pretty common knowledge. The slab hides all kinds of defects.