Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[thehumantorch]

On 5/15/2023 at 6:33 AM, Mark Warren said:

If there isn't a thread dedicated to the insanity of paying a 5X multiple of the 9.6 price for a 9.8, there really should be. I feel like someday the whole 9.8 fad will collapse and the hobby will collectively realize just how much money it has wasted chasing a subjective and mostly meaningless number ("It's a teeny tiny little microscopic bit better than a 9.6--except when it isn't! And who cares that the 9.6 has better centering!"), but so far I've been dead wrong. I get that for resellers, 9.8 is sometimes the only grade that makes sense financially. But for people who are paying through the nose for 9.8s for their personal collection...it just seems strange.

I started buying comics in the 1970's, off of spinner racks, and I almost never encountered comics that were essentially perfect, even fresh off the rack. 9.8 comics, at least from the copper age on back, just look unnatural to me. I think Overstreet had it right when he listed 9.2 as the defacto highest grade.

If there are 20 copies in 9.6 and 1 copy in 9.8 is it insane to pay a 5X multiple?  Especially considering some people want the best copy and money isn't an issue?  Don't forget that some people are building registry sets and getting the best copy they can is important and 'competitive'.  And I don't think there's no wrong answer here, we all collect differently.

If you've been collecting since the 70s, as have I, you'll recall Overstreet only listed 3 grades with NM- (9.2) (I think) being the best.  Values between GD prices and FN prices and NM- prices weren't that much and there really wasn't much need to break out different grades.  Times have changed and small increments in grade do matter to the market.  I've seen books from all eras that are virtually perfect and they are a joy to handle and look at and they are clearly higher grade than NM-

[Microchip]

On 5/16/2023 at 12:36 PM, mjoeyoung said:

Those prices are simply dumb.

Teen Titans #14 in 9.6 sells for $240 in 2019 and then sells for $5040?

$8400 for TT #12 that only has 34 on the census?

$6000 for TT #13, last sale of a 9.6 was $256 in 2020 and their are only 36 on the census?

These books are from 1968, is it really possible that these are the only high grade copies in existence?

This is some high level stupidity.  This is Beanie Babies dumbness.

Huh, the TT#12 there is a single 9.6 copy, and has been for 22 years, and the issue never comes up for sale!!   It's a strong result but not surprising in this era.

The same for issue #13.   The census numbers on these issues are right next to non existent in grade.   You can get a million beater copies, but not in grade.

The TV series Titans is a major success, and red hot right now.  

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1043813/

 

 

 

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:36 PM, mjoeyoung said:

Those prices are simply dumb.

Teen Titans #14 in 9.6 sells for $240 in 2019 and then sells for $5040?

$8400 for TT #12 that only has 34 on the census?

$6000 for TT #13, last sale of a 9.6 was $256 in 2020 and their are only 36 on the census?

These books are from 1968, is it really possible that these are the only high grade copies in existence?

This is some high level stupidity.  This is Beanie Babies dumbness.

First time I've ever heard someone use a low census number to argue a price is too high, but maybe for DC books that argument makes sense?

[Randall Dowling]

On 5/15/2023 at 9:36 PM, mjoeyoung said:

Those prices are simply dumb.

Teen Titans #14 in 9.6 sells for $240 in 2019 and then sells for $5040?

$8400 for TT #12 that only has 34 on the census?

$6000 for TT #13, last sale of a 9.6 was $256 in 2020 and their are only 36 on the census?

These books are from 1968, is it really possible that these are the only high grade copies in existence?

This is some high level stupidity.  This is Beanie Babies dumbness.

I think I can help with this.  I used to own a very high grade copy of Teen Titans 14. 

• It took me many years to find it. 
• I owned it for a few years, lost interest and sold it a few years ago. 
• The book has now exploded in price as I no longer own it. 

This is a well documented cause and effect of my owning and selling books.

I can't help it.  I'm a force of nature.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Randall Dowling
Organization

[namisgr]

Many of us can relate.  

[mjoeyoung]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:22 PM, thehumantorch said:

If there are 20 copies in 9.6 and 1 copy in 9.8 is it insane to pay a 5X multiple?  Especially considering some people want the best copy and money isn't an issue?  Don't forget that some people are building registry sets and getting the best copy they can is important and 'competitive'.  And I don't think there's no wrong answer here, we all collect differently.

If you've been collecting since the 70s, as have I, you'll recall Overstreet only listed 3 grades with NM- (9.2) (I think) being the best.  Values between GD prices and FN prices and NM- prices weren't that much and there really wasn't much need to break out different grades.  Times have changed and small increments in grade do matter to the market.  I've seen books from all eras that are virtually perfect and they are a joy to handle and look at and they are clearly higher grade than NM-

I think the subjective nature of grading is part of my problem with it.  If yesterday's 9.6 can become today's 9.8, or when individuals can successfully re-submit over and over again fishing for a higher grade, it is more art than science.  At that point you are grade collecting, not comic book collecting.  I'm not sure that is good for the hobby.

On 5/16/2023 at 12:10 AM, Microchip said:

The census numbers on these issues are right next to non existent in grade.

Sure, because the book wasn't worth that much.  Now that a 9.6 is seemingly worth thousands of dollars, there may be a few more getting graded. Maybe one or two of the 6 TT #12  9.4s that were last graded in 2004 or 2005 would grade at a 9.6 now?  And the TT #14 is not even the highest graded copy so why is it worth $5K now versus the $375 it sold for in 2021?  Is the 9.8 copy now worth $65K?

Schrödinger's Comic Book:  It is worth both $100 and $10,000, you won't know until the bidding is over

[Microchip]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:52 AM, mjoeyoung said:

Schrödinger's Comic Book:  It is worth both $100 and $10,000, you won't know until the bidding is over

There's 100,000 reviews on IMDB for Titans, a small fraction of the total audience.   The timing was right for that title, there's no mystery here.

There's so many examples of great books out there, with low market value.   Demand drives price, and when it arrives, it's dramatic.  

There's no confusion here.   $8k for a 1 of 1 book, in a red hot title, and an early issue for when the title artist completely changed his style for the better.    That looks cheap next to other in-demand books out there.

[COI]

9.8s are just another version of manufactured scarcity.

I could relate more to the 9.8 chase if the CPR game wasn't a thing. The subjective and sometimes arbitrary nature of distinguishing a 9.6 from a 9.8 is reason enough to go for the 9.6 at a deep discount, but what really makes it baffling is that the 9.8 you're thinking of buying at 5x the 9.6 price might've been a 9.0 in a previous life that was dunked into the Lazarus pit.

But hey, if that's your thing, go nuts.

[Microchip]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:31 AM, COI said:

9.8s are just another version of manufactured scarcity.

I could relate more to the 9.8 chase if the CPR game wasn't a thing. The subjective and sometimes arbitrary nature of distinguishing a 9.6 from a 9.8 is reason enough to go for the 9.6 at a deep discount, but what really makes it baffling is that the 9.8 you're thinking of buying at 5x the 9.6 price might've been a 9.0 in a previous life that was dunked into the Lazarus pit.

But hey, if that's your thing, go nuts.

Does that apply to every 9.8 out there?   ...I assume we're talking pre Modern era here.

 

[Happy Noodle Boy]

The good thing about the 9.8 collectors paying an arm and a leg so that the big black number in the upper left corner of the plastic case matches the big black numbers in the upper left corner of all their other plastic cases is that it leaves lots of comparatively very affordable 9.6 and 9.4 comics for the rest of us.

In April a CGC 9.8 copy of Batman 251 sold for $32,999. The previous month, a 9.6 copy of that book sold for $4,680.00. This is madness. Comic book grading is, at least to a degree, subjective. If a 9.8 had some kind of defined, obvious difference from a 9.6 that could always definitely be quantified that would be one thing, but with comics the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 can come down to whether or not a particular grader had his cup of coffee that morning. 9.8 collectors are paying for a number, and it's a subjective number. But I guess it's better than spending it all on booze and lottery tickets.

[COI]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:06 AM, Microchip said:

Does that apply to every 9.8 out there?   ...I assume we're talking pre Modern era here.

 

For me, it applies anywhere you see these massive spreads between 9.6/9.8. 

My stance on the CPR game has been consistent for the last 15+ years, so my bias is that pressing has undermined the pursuit of very high grade books by making them more common than they otherwise would've been, and this would apply to all eras. And I emphasize very high grade books because that's where the price spreads are the largest. 

In addition, the difference between 9.6s and 9.8s is so small that the difference in price between 9.6s and 9.8s suggest either that 1) people have supreme confidence in CGC's ability to discern the two consistently, or 2) buyers of 9.8s are primarily concerned with the label, which is why they'll take 1 copy labelled a 9.8 over 5 copies labeled a 9.6 for the same price, when it's plausible and maybe even likely that at least one of those 9.6s could have scored a 9.8 on another day. I think most people who have seen and/or submitted enough books at this level would scoff at #1, which means it's likely that the market for 9.8s mostly hinges on #2. 

In CGC's defense, I don't think any group of people could be consistent enough, given the number of graders and volume of books, to warrant those spreads. And to be fair to 9.8 sellers and buyers, the value we assign to every book in this hobby is based on some conceptual framework that has nothing to do with any intrinsic property of the books themselves. And clearly, the market for 9.8s has spoken, so it really doesn't matter what I think. But we all have to draw the line when it comes to our own perception of value, and I tend to tap out at around 9.6.

[Aman619]

Teen Titans is hot?  wow!  

[DC#]

On 5/18/2023 at 5:42 AM, Mark Warren said:

The good thing about the 9.8 collectors paying an arm and a leg so that the big black number in the upper left corner of the plastic case matches the big black numbers in the upper left corner of all their other plastic cases is that it leaves lots of comparatively very affordable 9.6 and 9.4 comics for the rest of us.

In April a CGC 9.8 copy of Batman 251 sold for $32,999. The previous month, a 9.6 copy of that book sold for $4,680.00. This is madness. Comic book grading is, at least to a degree, subjective. If a 9.8 had some kind of defined, obvious difference from a 9.6 that could always definitely be quantified that would be one thing, but with comics the difference between a 9.8 and a 9.6 can come down to whether or not a particular grader had his cup of coffee that morning. 9.8 collectors are paying for a number, and it's a subjective number. But I guess it's better than spending it all on booze and lottery tickets.

I understand the logic of the questioning - but it also gets to why is any of this worth anything - only because someone sees a value in something.   Here is a 9.6 vs a 9.2 of Batman #251 - why is the 9.6 worth $3k more (+300%) over the 9.2?   Are the differences really that material?     I assume some of one's view of what is a rational vs irrational depends greatly on how much money you or have to spend on this hobby/investments.    If you are not someone who would ever drop $30k on a book - it would never seem rational to spend the premium for a 9.8 vs. a 9.6.    If you would never drop more than $2k on a book - you think it is crazy to pay for a 9.6 Batman 251 vs a nice 9.2. 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by DC#

[Microchip]

On 5/19/2023 at 3:32 AM, COI said:

For me, it applies anywhere you see these massive spreads between 9.6/9.8. 

My stance on the CPR game has been consistent for the last 15+ years, so my bias is that pressing has undermined the pursuit of very high grade books by making them more common than they otherwise would've been, and this would apply to all eras. And I emphasize very high grade books because that's where the price spreads are the largest. 

In addition, the difference between 9.6s and 9.8s is so small that the difference in price between 9.6s and 9.8s suggest either that 1) people have supreme confidence in CGC's ability to discern the two consistently, or 2) buyers of 9.8s are primarily concerned with the label, which is why they'll take 1 copy labelled a 9.8 over 5 copies labeled a 9.6 for the same price, when it's plausible and maybe even likely that at least one of those 9.6s could have scored a 9.8 on another day. I think most people who have seen and/or submitted enough books at this level would scoff at #1, which means it's likely that the market for 9.8s mostly hinges on #2. 

In CGC's defense, I don't think any group of people could be consistent enough, given the number of graders and volume of books, to warrant those spreads. And to be fair to 9.8 sellers and buyers, the value we assign to every book in this hobby is based on some conceptual framework that has nothing to do with any intrinsic property of the books themselves. And clearly, the market for 9.8s has spoken, so it really doesn't matter what I think. But we all have to draw the line when it comes to our own perception of value, and I tend to tap out at around 9.6.

I'm really confused here about what you're trying to say here.

You're upset about what other people are happy to pay for 9.8 books, compared to 9.6 copies?  

You don't see the difference between the grades as justifying the price difference?   

But we see exact scenario to a factor of 100x, 1000x, all over the place.   Art, watches, car's, houses, on and on and on.   There's an endless list of examples where this dynamic happens.   Which is why people are happy to pay the growing multiples over 9.6 books.   They have a different perspective to you, and many others, including me.   I need to drop the old thinking on ratio's of prices between grades on books.

Comic books pricing, and prices has changed dramatically over the last 3 years.   The genie is out of the bottle, and after a 15 year period of stagnation, comic book prices are now growing.   Arguably this is a great thing for the hobby.   You can still currently put together 9.6 runs of top titles.  My advice would be do that now while they're looking so well priced next to the top tier. 

 

 

 

[COI]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:44 PM, Microchip said:

I'm really confused here about what you're trying to say here.

You're upset about what other people are happy to pay for 9.8 books, compared to 9.6 copies?  

You don't see the difference between the grades as justifying the price difference?   

But we see exact scenario to a factor of 100x, 1000x, all over the place.   Art, watches, car's, houses, on and on and on.   There's an endless list of examples where this dynamic happens.   Which is why people are happy to pay the growing multiples over 9.6 books.   They have a different perspective to you, and many others, including me.   I need to drop the old thinking on ratio's of prices between grades on books.

Comic books pricing, and prices has changed dramatically over the last 3 years.   The genie is out of the bottle, and after a 15 year period of stagnation, comic book prices are now growing.   Arguably this is a great thing for the hobby.   You can still currently put together 9.6 runs of top titles.  My advice would be do that now while they're looking so well priced next to the top tier. 

 

 

 

I'm not upset about anything. I was just giving my perspective as to why I  don't see the value in paying multiples for 9.8s over 9.6s. It's a combination of CPR making 9.8s more common than they otherwise would be combined with CGC not being consistent enough to justify the price difference for me.

I don't think it's particularly good OR particularly bad for the hobby because it's a small subset of the collectors. To your point, I'm happy to take the deep discount on 9.6s.

[mjoeyoung]

On 5/18/2023 at 3:20 PM, DC# said:

I understand the logic of the questioning - but it also gets to why is any of this worth anything - only because someone sees a value in something.   Here is a 9.6 vs a 9.2 of Batman #251 - why is the 9.6 worth $3k more (+300%) over the 9.2?   Are the differences really that material?     I assume some of one's view of what is a rational vs irrational depends greatly on how much money you or have to spend on this hobby/investments.    If you are not someone who would ever drop $30k on a book - it would never seem rational to spend the premium for a 9.8 vs. a 9.6.    If you would never drop more than $2k on a book - you think it is crazy to pay for a 9.6 Batman 251 vs a nice 9.2. 

 

High grade two dimensional collectibles like baseball cards are relatively easy to grade. I think most people could look at different grades of baseball cards and objectively determine which cards are higher grades.  Grading high grade comic books is much more complicated, and subjective.  Just looking at your example, I prefer the more complete pricing circle, the shade of blue in the background, the staple placement and the near perfect wrap of the 9.2.  None of those are factors in determining the difference between a 9.2 and 9.6.  Books with white covers can be pretty yellow and still get 9.8s (OMAC #1).  9.8s have been seen in the wild with page quality as low as Tan to Cream.  If that was the sole highest copy should it be worth a high multiple over a 9.6 with white pages?  What about a comic with manufacturing defects like bindery tears and back cover transfers stains vs. a comic that has only a couple of spine ticks?

The point is that when you get up to these grades the defects are so minor and the preferences so personal, that there is NO OBJECTIVE STANDARD.  This book is a 9.8 and that book is a 9.6 solely because CGC has decreed it.  You are paying a premium because the comic is inside some plastic that says it is a 9.8.  If you take it out of the plastic it could be be a 9.8 or a 9.6 or even a 9.4 if you sent it back in for grading.  The values assigned to the different grades should reflect the arbitrary nature of grading.  You buy the book, not the grade.

[Happy Noodle Boy]

Sometimes I think the people who pay for the 9.8 number and don't seem to care very much what's inside the case are going to collectively realize, like the speculators of the 1990s who horded all those Death of Superman books did, that they've been played. That there will be a mass sell-off of 9.8 books and the prices will crash down to approximately "9.6 +10%" rates. But in order for that to happen CGC and CBCS--really the entire professional grading industry--would have to be caught in some kind of grading scandal that made the whole "9.x" end of their grading scale look not just subjective but arbitrary, or worse, subject to outside influence or favors. And while there have been cases of "gift grades" here and there, that doesn't seem to be the case. So I imagine the 9.8 collectors will go on spending their money on their matching cases that look so nice all lined up together because the numbers in the upper left corner match, while the rest of us will continue to get good deals on 9.4 and 9.6 books. 

One question I wanted to pose: dealers often mention that some books, moderns, usually, only really have resale value in a 9.8. By which they mean not just that it has to *be* a 9.8 but that it also has to have been *professionally graded* as a 9.8. Comic book resellers with YouTube channels are constantly saying this. But if that's the case--if a book is essentially not worth bothering with if it hasn't been CGC graded at a 9.8--does that book itself really have any actual value at all? 

And I like the 9.2 copy of Batman 251 better than the 9.6. The colors pop better on the 9.2, and the Batman logo on the 9.6 has some sort of white discoloration in a couple of places. Maybe just bits of debris, but if you're never going to remove the book from the slab you're stuck with it...

 

[calicomic]

On 5/18/2023 at 2:20 PM, DC# said:

I understand the logic of the questioning - but it also gets to why is any of this worth anything - only because someone sees a value in something.   Here is a 9.6 vs a 9.2 of Batman #251 - why is the 9.6 worth $3k more (+300%) over the 9.2?   Are the differences really that material?     I assume some of one's view of what is a rational vs irrational depends greatly on how much money you or have to spend on this hobby/investments.    If you are not someone who would ever drop $30k on a book - it would never seem rational to spend the premium for a 9.8 vs. a 9.6.    If you would never drop more than $2k on a book - you think it is crazy to pay for a 9.6 Batman 251 vs a nice 9.2. 

 

I Know that 9.8 sale on eBay is not legit. No one paid that for this comic. Last month one sold on comic link for around 14k in 9.8. 

I just I don't believe it sold for more than double what that one sold for. 

Ebay has a history of the item being "sold" but not transaction actually took place.

I have bought and sold this book many times including a few 9.8's and it always goes for around 10-13k. I have a 9.8 signed by Neal Adams. 1 of 2. no one would buy it for 30k plus.

[Microchip]

On 5/19/2023 at 12:36 PM, mjoeyoung said:

The point is that when you get up to these grades the defects are so minor and the preferences so personal, that there is NO OBJECTIVE STANDARD.  This book is a 9.8 and that book is a 9.6 solely because CGC has decreed it.  You are paying a premium because the comic is inside some plastic that says it is a 9.8.  If you take it out of the plastic it could be be a 9.8 or a 9.6 or even a 9.4 if you sent it back in for grading.  The values assigned to the different grades should reflect the arbitrary nature of grading.  You buy the book, not the grade.

I'm going to have to disagree.

People are paying these silly multiples squarely because of their confidence in the grading provided by CGC, and they're confident in the incremental grading differences.

None of us would be writing here on this forum if this wasn't staggeringly the case. 

 

@COI The confidence in the grading is irrespective of the CPR game.  Though your points are quite valid.   

 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:02 AM, Microchip said:

I'm going to have to disagree.

People are paying these silly multiples squarely because of their confidence in the grading provided by CGC, and they're confident in the incremental grading differences.

None of us would be writing here on this forum if this wasn't staggeringly the case. 

 

@COI The confidence in the grading is irrespective of the CPR game.  Though your points are quite valid.