Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[VintageComics]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:33 PM, MAR1979 said:

Same incessant whining about prices in the Card forums, by the same dimwits or is it liars? (IE Kenny Goldin + PWCC + 4SC) who said in 2021 it was not a bubble and prices would continue to skyrocket due to "new money" in the hobby and similar nonsense.

The only answers are; 1) adapt or 2) be young enough to wait it out until next bubble in 20-30 years.

If comics are following the same trends as all other collectibles, is it considered a hobby bubble or an economic bubble? 

And if it's an economic bubble, which it obviously was, why are people arguing the Promise books were a hobby bubble?

[MAR1979]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:22 PM, VintageComics said:

If comics are following the same trends as all other collectibles, is it considered a hobby bubble or an economic bubble? 

And if it's an economic bubble, which it obviously was, why are people arguing the Promise books were a hobby bubble?

Perhaps it should be considered a "dual' or "perfect storm" or "franken" bubble.

[atomised]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:22 PM, VintageComics said:

If comics are following the same trends as all other collectibles, is it considered a hobby bubble or an economic bubble? 

And if it's an economic bubble, which it obviously was, why are people arguing the Promise books were a hobby bubble?

I don't get the folks that are obsessed with pointing out that the Promise books were over-graded, a bubble or responsible for world hunger.  It's a good pedigree, the books are great, and it helps everyone that collects when a new pedigree is announced.  Sure the prices were higher for those books a year or two ago, so were a lot of books across many genres and eras.  Every time there is a big HA sale, there are a least a couple gleeful posts pointing out how Promise books have dipped.  It's just morbid and depressing and I don't get it.

[october]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:49 PM, buttock said:

IQ is calculated on a normal distribution.  That means that 1 in 6 people are going to be 2 standard deviations below the norm, and barely capable of functioning in society.  Those are the people posting that.  

My drooling is considered fashionable in some circles. 

If you love the Promise books so much why don't you marry them dork.

[VintageComics]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:42 PM, atomised said:

I don't get the folks that are obsessed with pointing out that the Promise books were over-graded, a bubble or responsible for world hunger.  It's a good pedigree, the books are great, and it helps everyone that collects when a new pedigree is announced.  Sure the prices were higher for those books a year or two ago, so were a lot of books across many genres and eras.  Every time there is a big HA sale, there are a least a couple gleeful posts pointing out how Promise books have dipped.  It's just morbid and depressing and I don't get it.

Social media has programmed society to be annoyed at everything. We should start a petition, because the Promise Pedigree needs a social justice thread to fight for it because it's so oppressed.

[Chip Cataldo]

On 12/12/2023 at 5:43 PM, VintageComics said:

Social media has programmed society to be annoyed at everything. We should start a petition, because the Promise Pedigree needs a social justice thread to fight for it because it's so oppressed.

I'm annoyed that you think Joaquin is The Joker. He's not. 

[Buzzetta]

Anyway, as with anything, it depends on the product, availability, desire to spend money on the part of the buyer, overall opportunity cost and a host of other mitigating factors.   Some stuff is going up, some is steady, and some stuff is going down. 

Either way, I picked up some stuff this year, and I am off to list other items in other places.   Latahz. 

[namisgr]

Today I won on E-Bay a Bronze Age key book in CGC 9.2 condition for the price essentially identical to the 12 month average for the issue in 9.0.

It's by no means the only bronze age comic I've been able to buy recently for  a favorable price, and is consistent with the overall trend for bronze age books noted in the data compiled and posted by DC#

[VintageComics]

On 12/12/2023 at 4:42 PM, atomised said:

I don't get the folks that are obsessed with pointing out that the Promise books were over-graded, a bubble or responsible for world hunger.  It's a good pedigree, the books are great, and it helps everyone that collects when a new pedigree is announced.  Sure the prices were higher for those books a year or two ago, so were a lot of books across many genres and eras.  Every time there is a big HA sale, there are a least a couple gleeful posts pointing out how Promise books have dipped.  It's just morbid and depressing and I don't get it.

I think it's really hard to separate emotions from logic in large scale discussions about the hobby because the hobby is fundamentally based on emotion. Collecting is basically an emotional endeavor. 

Some people have vested interests in one direction or another, and they argue out of those vested interests. 

When I was much younger I used to be this way. I hated my wealthy family members and only focused on what I didn't have. I learned that it wasn't a good path and stopped thinking that way and started focusing on achieving things rather than being critical. It made all the difference to me. I ended up rising to the top of every industry I was in.

Life is just a series of choices, and if you don't like your choices, change them, but you can't go blaming others for your own choices. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:13 PM, VintageComics said:

You sound like all the bitter people in 2006 who made a lot of mistakes about understanding the process, only because they were so emotional and unreasonable about the topic.

Pressing a book isn't trickery.

It's a benign, almost natural process in much the same way that if you lay on a bed for long enough, you'll actually get taller.

I've told this story many times, but I uncovered an incredible, high grade, original owner collection in a tropical climate and the books were stacked for many years raw. This pressure from stacking along with the natural humidity caused them to naturally press and preserve their condition. Should I disclose that they were stored in a humid environment, stacked for years? 

People who talk about "the long term impact of pressing" know nothing of what a book goes through before they're printed. They go through much worse conditions during the printing process BEFORE the books hit the stands, than a properly pressed book. The heat, the pressure, the violent forces - have you EVER looked into the process or seen it on video? Those books aren't treated with care. 

At least a presser is treating it like a collectible. 

How about when your books are sitting in the delivery truck out in the desert, and it's 120 degrees outside, and nearly 200 degrees in the truck where your plastic starts to melt? Do you think the truck driver cares about your precious collectible?

The fact is that people have been scraping boogers off of books, pressing them and trying to make their nice books look better for as long as there have been comics and some are just better at it than others and it's been an ever evolving process since Pop Hollinger, arguably the 1st vintage comic book dealer was taping books together to preserve them back in the 1940s.

What people take exception about is the money they leave on the table. Well, tough bananas. I've left 6 figure life changing money on the table. We've all done it. As adults, you take your lumps in life, learn your lessons and move on.

Or just stay bitter forever. The choice is yours. 

Well, Matt pressed books for us before submitting them to CGC in 2006. If that was your first incorrect assumption I’d let it slide. Your Roy-splaining about the printing process is comical, as I’ve forgotten more about the printing process in the last 30 years than you presume to know by several orders of magnitude. Again, not your fault that because you’re into comics you’re not the SME on the methods of production you think you are. Lots of that on message boards and you’re hardly unique. But to compare printing on virgin paper on a printing press to the application of heat and moisture and pressure to a printed comic with the cover and staples and glue where applicable already assembled years or decades after its original production with little knowledge of the conditions the book was subject to in the intervening years is naive at best. The simple fact that some press-able defects are only temporarily ameliorated and need to be graded and slabbed in a timely manner before they revert to their original state of imperfection proves that pressing is indeed an artificial treatment of the comic that is pure trickery that is hardly benign. How many times are you willing to repress that book if it’s so benign? Its not Botox. Its wood pulp, it’s not going to get better with time, and you might have just shortened that time to pass it off as a higher grade. Assuming most of the Promise Books went through a cursory pressing, even as we speak some of those 9.4 and 9.6s are shrinking back to the 9.0 and 9.2s they always were. I’m hardly bitter though, I’ve never lost money on a slab. Nothing printed in the last 55 years was ever worth slabbing to begin with. What a colossal waste of money better spent on genuinely rare artifacts like comic art. 

[CGC Mike]

I have cleaned up this thread.  Going forward, posting off topic/derailing posts may result in a permanent ban from the thread, ban from forum,  or posting restrictions forum wide.  A few years ago, we raised the age limit for members to 18.  Lets start acting more like adults.  This goes for all of the threads.  I am seeing posting patterns from multiple people that I do not like.  

[comicwiz]

On 12/12/2023 at 1:21 PM, VintageComics said:

It would be really interesting to note how other hobbies fared compared to comics in a macro study - ie how many baseball cards, or cars, or watches or whatever are coming back to market and reselling.

There's a great deal I can expand on here, but I'll choose instead to explain something that's recently come full circle. Worth elaborating for this discussion because we are talking about bubbles. 

I'm an admin in several FB groups on collecting. There are interconnections between some of these groups despite being different collecting categories. Recently, a certain member was found to be retracting bids on feeBay. Normally, what happens on feeBay, I don't want to know about, but it was being pushed by some admins who wanted this issue resolved because this individual was a member in their groups. In a nutshell, it was discovered that this person retracts a lot of bids, when he was asked why, he didn't see a problem with it, since feeBay won't suspend, penalize, ban or even delete accounts caught doing it. That member decided to leave of his own volition, made the entire ackwardness of pushing him out simpler. That didn't however address how feeBay doesn't give a damn about anyone retracting bids.

There's a few things I "listen" for through a software I developed - when I say listening, I mean chatter that people discuss in social media, usually of a collecting nature. Think CB & Ham type listening for online/social media. I've developed many leads on collections this way. About a year ago, someone tweeted about a "group" of people who are leading the charge on "new asset class" investing. At the time, I had been doing some independent research on fractional platforms, specifically in relation to SEC filings, and peeling back the layers of how each operated. So this kind of intersected a bit with this research endeavour, I followed the person to IG, and a snapchat post where I nabbed an invite-only discord link to a channel they had created. I'm going to cut straight to the chase on this one, but suffice it to say that about a week in, I realized one of the things they were using this channel for was to shill bid feeBay auctions for members of this discord. 

So as I watch how little feeBay gives a damn, especially when I see accounts that over the last 30 days, a person has had nearly 44,000 bid retractions, and I see people using platforms like discord to do underhanded stuff like shill bidding, I do believe it is far more contextually honest to start talking about these as imitation bubbles. Fake interest, fake bids, driving-up fake prices, fooling people into believing the market is strong. 

Sure, what's been happening since the invasion of Ukraine has demonstrably shown the impacts on a global economy. But there were numerous signals the average person with an average understanding of how markets work could see early on that what we were witnessing was a perversion of "economic" principles being guided by greed. There was no justification for the jumps we were seeing in values. But this time, the confluence of all these factors - free money (low interest, pandemic aid), can't miss narrative on collectibles being the next big thing pushed by everyone and their mother, AND covert technological methods/tactics to achieve this end. That you almost have to devle into in an "undercover" way to be able to discover!

The synergy that exists between this throng of newbies that don't want to learn, don't want to put in the time, don't want to put in the effort or learn the ropes because they don't want to be told how to collect, they just want to make bank - face to face with those using these "new" fangled ways to enrich themselves and anyone willing to follow, leads us down this bleak future for hobbying. And please, don't confuse anything about these activities as remotely resembling anything to do with collecting or investing, it's theft by deception.

In toys, we have "repro" issues with everything from figures, their weapons, accessories, and even packaging. Idenfitication systems have worked to keep certain things at bay, but it's a constant cat and mouse game.

What we have here is not an economic bubble. It's not a financial bubble, not a market bubble, but a "REPRO or imitiation bubble."

Unlike the issues with repro in toys, is it's more akin to the mice multiplying, figuring out a way to make themselves stealth, and are using decoys that continue fooling the cat. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by comicwiz

[MyNameIsLegion]

Wow great post @comicwiz. A lot to unpack here but it speaks to what is happening in different collecting circles in coordinated (collusion) and asynchronous ways of buoying prices beyond what they would be organically. The original comic art market is one prominent area. A small group bid up everything to maintain price perception to protect their holdings while they consign, get cash or credit advances and apply them to future auctions. That’s been going on for almost 10 years thanks to HA and Clink, it’s the last area CGC hasn’t managed to invent a product for. But I’m sure the shenanigans you speak of are legion wherever there’s a lack of transparency and oversight.

[VintageComics]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:37 PM, comicwiz said:

There's a great deal I can expand on here, but I'll choose instead to explain something that's recently come full circle. Worth elaborating for this discussion because we are talking about bubbles. 

I'm an admin in several FB groups on collecting. There are interconnections between some of these groups despite being different collecting categories. Recently, a certain member was found to be retracting bids on feeBay. Normally, what happens on feeBay, I don't want to know about, but it was being pushed by some admins who wanted this issue resolved because this individual was a member in their groups. In a nutshell, it was discovered that this person retracts a lot of bids, when he was asked why, he didn't see a problem with it, since feeBay won't suspend, penalize, ban or even delete accounts caught doing it. That member decided to leave of his own volition, made the entire ackwardness of pushing him out simpler. That didn't however address how feeBay doesn't give a damn about anyone retracting bids.

There's a few things I "listen" for through a software I developed - when I say listening, I mean chatter that people discuss in social media, usually of a collecting nature. Think CB & Ham type listening for online/social media. I've developed many leads on collections this way. About a year ago, someone tweeted about a "group" of people who are leading the charge on "new asset class" investing. At the time, I had been doing some independent research on fractional platforms, specifically in relation to SEC filings, and peeling back the layers of how each operated. So this kind of intersected a bit with this research endeavour, I followed the person to IG, and a snapchat post where I nabbed an invite-only discord link to a channel they had created. I'm going to cut straight to the chase on this one, but suffice it to say that about a week in, I realized one of the things they were using this channel for was to shill bid feeBay auctions for members of this discord. 

So as I watch how little feeBay gives a damn, especially when I see accounts that over the last 30 days, a person has had nearly 44,000 bid retractions, and I see people using platforms like discord to do underhanded stuff like shill bidding, I do believe it is far more contextually honest to start talking about these as imitation bubbles. Fake interest, fake bids, driving-up fake prices, fooling people into believing the market is strong. 

Sure, what's been happening since the invasion of Ukraine has demonstrably shown the impacts on a global economy. But there were numerous signals the average person with an average understanding of how markets work could see early on that what we were witnessing was a perversion of "economic" principles being guided by greed. There was no justification for the jumps we were seeing in values. But this time, the confluence of all these factors - free money (low interest, pandemic aid), can't miss narrative on collectibles being the next big thing pushed by everyone and their mother, AND covert technological methods/tactics to achieve this end. That you almost have to devle into in an "undercover" way to be able to discover!

The synergy that exists between this throng of newbies that don't want to learn, don't want to put in the time, don't want to put in the effort or learn the ropes because they don't want to be told how to collect, they just want to make bank - face to face with those using these "new" fangled ways to enrich themselves and anyone willing to follow, leads us down this bleak future for hobbying. And please, don't confuse anything about these activities as remotely resembling anything to do with collecting or investing, it's theft by deception.

In toys, we have "repro" issues with everything from figures, their weapons, accessories, and even packaging. Idenfitication systems have worked to keep certain things at bay, but it's a constant cat and mouse game.

What we have here is not an economic bubble. It's not a financial bubble, not a market bubble, but a "REPRO or imitiation bubble."

Unlike the issues with repro in toys, is it's more akin to the mice multiplying, figuring out a way to make themselves stealth, and are using decoys that continue fooling the cat. 

You're talking about this like it's something new.

Shill bidding has been happening since the dawn of time and I've been openly speaking out against it for over a decade on here myself, maybe even 15 years since I found out it was a common practice.

As I've always said, I've personally never had a book shill bid even though I've had offers like "can I throw in a bid for you" and I always reply with "bid whatever you want to pay for it", but you can often tell which books are shill bid by how quickly prices rise early in an auction while mine seem to sit at low prices indefinitely. 

As far as the "imitation bubble" we've already seen that too, here with CGC slab tampering and other things. That's where my analogy about keeping your money safe came in a few days ago. 

People stored their money under their mattresses until it became unsafe to do so, and then started storing them in banks. Now it's on the banks to keep your money safe, and on the certification companies to keep your products free from fraud. 

------------

Uncovering that ring is a great catch on your part, though. Bravo! 

As organizations build better mousetraps, the mice will continue to get smarter. 

The two things I would add that can improve on this is

a) building better mousetraps and

b) raising better children.

Society's values are a reflection of incoming generations and we've become a society that is lackadaisical in putting in the effort to raise better quality children but then complain when society falters. In many ways, the older generations are responsible for it and the very reason we need better mousetraps. 

On 12/13/2023 at 7:06 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

Wow great post @comicwiz. A lot to unpack here but it speaks to what is happening in different collecting circles in coordinated (collusion) and asynchronous ways of buoying prices beyond what they would be organically. The original comic art market is one prominent area. A small group bid up everything to maintain price perception to protect their holdings while they consign, get cash or credit advances and apply them to future auctions. That’s been going on for almost 10 years thanks to HA and Clink, it’s the last area CGC hasn’t managed to invent a product for. But I’m sure the shenanigans you speak of are legion wherever there’s a lack of transparency and oversight.

Why on EARTH would you blame two auction houses for practices that have been happening since the dawn of time?

I can't imagine living a life where I see a boogeyman everywhere I look. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[comicwiz]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:48 PM, VintageComics said:

You're talking about this like it's something new.

Shill bidding has been happening since the dawn of time and I've been openly speaking out against it for over a decade on here myself, maybe even 15 years since I found out it was a common practice.

As I've always said, I've personally never had a book shill bid even though I've had offers like "can I throw in a bid for you" and I always reply with "bid whatever you want to pay for it", but you can often tell which books are shill bid by how quickly prices rise early in an auction while mine seem to sit at low prices indefinitely. 

I've been doing what I do long enough to know this is an oversimplication of what I'm describing. 

I've been on feeBay since it started. While you may think this is a problem that is not new, let's go over why it isn't. feeBay makes it clear they do not condone shill bidding. The PWCC expose they did a few years ago, if nothing else, at least demonstrates this is something they have consistently been saying all along. 

The retraction policy feeBay used to have would not allow anyone to retract a bid with less than 12 hours left in a listing. Now, you can retract a bid even in the last minute of an auction. feeBay cites two specific reasons for retractions - the first is if the seller revises the listing, and understandably, a revision of terms, description, photos, and a change not described in the first iteration could be a deal-breaker. The second is if the person enters the wrong amount, however the kind of mistake they are specifically referring to is an error where you bid $300 instead of $30. 

When the 12 hour rule was in place, there was a check the software performed to see how much time was left in the listing. If you tried to retract with 11:59 minutes left, you were SOL. So, why hasn't feeBay instituted the same "checks" on things as simple as a check against whether the seller has made any revisions? That could be done rather simply. Or, on the amount entered. In the situation with that member who the admins wanted booted, I was reviewing bid activity where he would retract a bid of $125, and won the item at $126 - why wouldn't the check at least look at the bid amount being retracted against what other bids were entered? That could clearly not only show a misuse/abuse case, but when reporting it, they could also see that it was likely he retracted that $125 bid because he used it to figure out the high bidders max bid, then when he exposed it, the max bid he needed to use would have dialed-up the bid too high, so he retracted it, and placed the winning bid in the last seconds. So essentially he was able to keep that additional $10-$20 in his pocket, and I understand that it could have gone the other way, where a snipe bid from the top bidder won against that difference he wanted to save. 

However what about using those retractions for things like bid shielding? Or sellers who use multiple accounts to push the price until some legitimate bidder wanders into the frenzy, and then retracts all bids to leave that lone bidder in winning position, or using retractions to position second chance offers?

When the 12 hour rule was in place on retractions, it virtually elimated these deceptive tactics. I recognize feeBay ignoring these issues conveniently also benefits them greatly, because inflated bids show shareholders feeBay still has it, and if they're monetizing the platform on fees, the higher the prices, the better their take.

What this is really about is how we all lose in situations like this, because these methods/tactics are creating inflated values, and we use data aggregators that source this past sales data, and let's be honest, when records are broken, it's irrefutable to those who stand to benefit most from that growth. When the markets are going good, no one stops to question it, even when there's people saying none of it makes sense. 

What this is about is how it's being done. This is one of the ways. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by comicwiz

[VintageComics]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:21 PM, comicwiz said:

I've been doing what I do long enough to know this is an oversimplication of what I'm describing. 

I've been on feeBay since it started. While you may think this is a problem that is not new, let's go over why it isn't. feeBay makes it clear they do not condone shill bidding. The PWCC expose they did a few years ago, if nothing else, at least demonstrates this is something they have consistently been saying all along. 

The retraction policy feeBay used to have would not allow anyone to retract a bid with less than 12 hours left in a listing. Now, you can retract a bid even in the last minute of an auction. feeBay cites two specific reasons for retractions - the first is if the seller revises the listing, and understandably, a revision of terms, description, photos, and a change not described in the first iteration could be a deal-breaker. The second is if the person enters the wrong amount, however the kind of mistake they are specifically referring to is an error where you bid $300 instead of $30. 

When the 12 hour rule was in place, there was a check the software performed to see how much time was left in the listing. If you tried to retract with 11:59 minutes left, you were SOL. So, why hasn't feeBay instituted the same "checks" on things as simple as a check against whether the seller has made any revisions? That could be done rather simply. Or, on the amount entered. In the situation with that member who the admins wanted booted, I was reviewinb bid activity where he would retract a bid of $125, and won the item at $126 - why wouldn't the check at least look at the bid amount being retracted against what other bids were entered? That could clearly not only show a misuse/abuse case, but when reporting it, they could also see that it was likely he retracted that $125 bid because he used it to figure out the high bidders max bid, then when he exposed it, the max bid he needed to use would have dialed-up the bid too high, so he retracted it, and placed the winning bid in the last seconds. So essentially he was able to keep that additional $10-$20 in his pocket, and I understand that it could have gone the other way, where a snipe bid from the top bidder won against that difference he wanted to save. 

However what about using those retractions for things like bid shielding? Or sellers who use multiple accounts to push the price until some legitimate bidder wanders into the frenzy, and then retracts all bids to leave that lone bidder in winning position, or using retractions to position second chance offers?

When the 12 hour rule was in place on retractions, it virtually elimated these deceptive tactics. I recognize feeBay ignoring these issues conveniently also benefits them greatly, because inflated bids show shareholders feeBay still has it, and if they're monetizing the platform on fees, the higher the prices, the better their take.

What this is really about is how we all lose in situations like this, because these methods/tactics are creating inflated values, and we use data aggregators that source this past sales data, and let's be honest, when records are broken, it's irrefutable to those who stand to benefit most from that growth. When the markets are going good, no stops to question it, even when there's people saying none of it makes sense. 

What this is about his how it's being done. This is one of the ways. 

All fair points, and I didn't mean to oversimply your point, I just didn't want to have a huge, wordy response.

This just solidifies my theory that the corporate structure is prone to corruption, as the more something MUST lean toward profit the more it MUST lean toward corruption. It's a really simple principle that has even been shown to be true through studies.

The need for corporate eBay to increase profitability to satisfy stockholders is the only excuse I too can think of that they wouldn't implement the 12 hour rule again.

But additionally, having been a part of the many shill bidding discussions on here, you can only control what's in your own hands, and as a buyer the Caveat Emptor slogan rings even more true. Don't get caught in heat, bidding more than you should pay for an item. 

Price protection has been a practice since the dawn of time, and the only thing that really changes is how intricate the fraud gets as better mousetraps get built. 

Or, again, if you raise children who don't value profit and corruption over integrity, those people will find more honorable ways to turn a profit and run a business and I'm going to beat that drum until the day I die, because that's the real solution to every problem in life. 

For example, good people won't deal with bad people, immediately stunting the growth of that 'bad' enterprise.

Or good people won't work for those types of companies that exhibit poor behavior.

Or good people won't encourage that sort of behavior and even speak out against it if / when it comes up in the corporate board room. 

Or good people won't overextend themselves in ways that puts them into situations where they may consider making bad decisions to get themselves out of it. 

So having good people in the world is really the solution to most world problems. I really believe that.  

[comicwiz]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:42 PM, VintageComics said:

All fair points, and I didn't mean to oversimply your point, I just didn't want to have a huge, wordy response.

This just solidifies my theory that the corporate structure is prone to corruption, as the more something MUST lean toward profit the more it MUST lean toward corruption. It's a really simple principle that has even been shown to be true through studies.

The need for corporate eBay to increase profitability to satisfy stockholders is the only excuse I too can think of that they wouldn't implement the 12 hour rule again.

But additionally, having been a part of the many shill bidding discussions on here, you can only control what's in your own hands, and as a buyer the Caveat Emptor slogan rings even more true. Don't get caught in heat, bidding more than you should pay for an item. 

Price protection has been a practice since the dawn of time, and the only thing that really changes is how intricate the fraud gets as better mousetraps get built. 

Or, again, if you raise children who don't value profit and corruption over integrity, those people will find more honorable ways to turn a profit and run a business and I'm going to beat that drum until the day I die, because that's the real solution to every problem in life. 

For example, good people won't deal with bad people, immediately stunting the growth of that 'bad' enterprise.

Or good people won't work for those types of companies that exhibit poor behavior.

Or good people won't encourage that sort of behavior and even speak out against it if / when it comes up in the corporate board room. 

Or good people won't overextend themselves in ways that puts them into situations where they may consider making bad decisions to get themselves out of it. 

So having good people in the world is really the solution to most world problems. I really believe that.  

The bid retraction activities are more caveat emptor and venditor. The stuff I described above just scratches the surface with the kind of manipulation it's allowing accounts that do both buying and selling.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 12/13/2023 at 5:21 PM, comicwiz said:

I've been doing what I do long enough to know this is an oversimplication of what I'm describing. 

I've been on feeBay since it started. While you may think this is a problem that is not new, let's go over why it isn't. feeBay makes it clear they do not condone shill bidding. The PWCC expose they did a few years ago, if nothing else, at least demonstrates this is something they have consistently been saying all along. 

The retraction policy feeBay used to have would not allow anyone to retract a bid with less than 12 hours left in a listing. Now, you can retract a bid even in the last minute of an auction. feeBay cites two specific reasons for retractions - the first is if the seller revises the listing, and understandably, a revision of terms, description, photos, and a change not described in the first iteration could be a deal-breaker. The second is if the person enters the wrong amount, however the kind of mistake they are specifically referring to is an error where you bid $300 instead of $30. 

When the 12 hour rule was in place, there was a check the software performed to see how much time was left in the listing. If you tried to retract with 11:59 minutes left, you were SOL. So, why hasn't feeBay instituted the same "checks" on things as simple as a check against whether the seller has made any revisions? That could be done rather simply. Or, on the amount entered. In the situation with that member who the admins wanted booted, I was reviewing bid activity where he would retract a bid of $125, and won the item at $126 - why wouldn't the check at least look at the bid amount being retracted against what other bids were entered? That could clearly not only show a misuse/abuse case, but when reporting it, they could also see that it was likely he retracted that $125 bid because he used it to figure out the high bidders max bid, then when he exposed it, the max bid he needed to use would have dialed-up the bid too high, so he retracted it, and placed the winning bid in the last seconds. So essentially he was able to keep that additional $10-$20 in his pocket, and I understand that it could have gone the other way, where a snipe bid from the top bidder won against that difference he wanted to save. 

However what about using those retractions for things like bid shielding? Or sellers who use multiple accounts to push the price until some legitimate bidder wanders into the frenzy, and then retracts all bids to leave that lone bidder in winning position, or using retractions to position second chance offers?

When the 12 hour rule was in place on retractions, it virtually elimated these deceptive tactics. I recognize feeBay ignoring these issues conveniently also benefits them greatly, because inflated bids show shareholders feeBay still has it, and if they're monetizing the platform on fees, the higher the prices, the better their take.

What this is really about is how we all lose in situations like this, because these methods/tactics are creating inflated values, and we use data aggregators that source this past sales data, and let's be honest, when records are broken, it's irrefutable to those who stand to benefit most from that growth. When the markets are going good, no one stops to question it, even when there's people saying none of it makes sense. 

What this is about is how it's being done. This is one of the ways. 

[Lightning55]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:21 PM, comicwiz said:

The retraction policy feeBay used to have would not allow anyone to retract a bid with less than 12 hours left in a listing. Now, you can retract a bid even in the last minute of an auction. feeBay cites two specific reasons for retractions - the first is if the seller revises the listing, and understandably, a revision of terms, description, photos, and a change not described in the first iteration could be a deal-breaker. The second is if the person enters the wrong amount, however the kind of mistake they are specifically referring to is an error where you bid $300 instead of $30.

Two of these things don't ring true to me.

Last week I tried to retract a bid when I found out that the seller's last 5 feedbacks were Negative, never shipped. There were only 10 hours left, so I was unable to retract, denied by eBay, under 12 hours left. Even if I wanted to retract it for the wrong amount bid, it would not have let me proceed, just roadblocked. So I guess the 12 hour rule is alive and well. Fortunately for me, an equally unobservent bidder outbid me, letting me off the hook.

And once there is a bid placed on an auction, the seller is unable to revise it (all consequential fields grayed out). I found that out when I wanted to make a bulk revision of handling time, not noticing that one of the listings in the group had a bid on it. Revision denied.

I'd like to know who has been able to get around these restrictions, because I know I can't. 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

https://www.ebay.com/help/buying/bidding/retracting-bid?id=4013