Ant-Man spec anyone? 0

[serling1978]

With the crazy blow up of Jim 83 this year, wondering if that is solely related to his next upcoming movie and if so, at what point, if any, will the upcoming Ant-Man movie start to drive up prices for TTA 27 and TTA 35? And TTA 44 for that matter. 

Need to see some love for my tiny friend. Recently I noticed JIM 85 surpassing TTA 27 in value. Idk when that took place but I've had both books for a long time and I don't recall ever seeing JIM 85 in the same universe as TTA 27.

Is Ant-Man destined to fall hopelessly behind the main, and upcoming, SA intro's or can TTA 27 continue to hang around the fringes as a 2nd tier SA "grail"? 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

I like Ant-man because of Paul Rudd.  Never cared about Ant-man as a collector. 

[serling1978]

46 minutes ago, THE_BEYONDER said:

I like Ant-man because of Paul Rudd.  Never cared about Ant-man as a collector. 

I like his TTA stuff and his early Avengers appearances. I never got into the Scott Lang thing or anything that came after that. But I do like him as an early Marvel hero. 

[the blob]

Ant Man was generally a 47th tier character, but thanks to Paul Rudd** he is a big movie name. Nobody reads the comics though. The main super cool part of it is that it, along with FF 1 and 2 are the only post-hero 10 cent Marvels (putting aside the Yellow Claw books which are relevant now that Jimmy Woo is relevant)

I bought a few of the early TTA appearances thinking his first movie appearance would help, but I didn't see a lot of a bounce. Possibly because it isn't the same Ant Man.

** My wife generally despises super hero movies. But for some reason with Rudd playing Ant Man she did not mind watching a bit of the movies. Interesting.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by the blob

[serling1978]

I don't think the movies did the character any favors. The stories weren't at the same level as other MCU work, the villains were extremely weak, and like you said they didn't even star Hank Pym. 

I felt equally disappointed with how Ultron was handled. I guess since Hank Pym created Ultron its only fitting that they both got the shaft in the MCU. 

[shadroch]

I hated Ant-Man as an Avenger, but began to like him as Goliath. I thought his Yellowjacket days with the Defenders were great.

Of the early Marvel heroes, he is by far the weakest and I imagine TTA 27 will continue to drop in rank as other books .  I wouldn't be surprised if #44, the first Wasp, surpasses #27 eventually.

 

[serling1978]

12 hours ago, shadroch said:

Of the early Marvel heroes, he is by far the weakest and I imagine TTA 27 will continue to drop in rank as other books .  I wouldn't be surprised if #44, the first Wasp, surpasses #27 eventually.

 

True, but collectors have long known of who Ant-man is and his deficiencies, nothing new has come out to change that recently, yet value wise TTA 27 still historically outpaced the likes of DD1, and ST 110, and was worth around 50-60% of JIM 83 as recently as last year. I'm still not sure what changed in the past months where TTA 27 hit a brick wall while others hit a speed boost. Looking back at 2020 GPA averages, books like ST 110, DD1, and JIM 83 are seeing massive jumps. Thor and Dr Strange are long established in the MCU so there's nothing new there. So all this has made me wonder what's up with Ant-man in the past 5 or so months and has a collecting shift taken place where the book is now less desired by long standing collectors or is this more being driven by  new collectors who don't care as much about the character being one of the early Marvel heroes and don't value those TTA books the same way. 

[thehumantorch]

1 minute ago, serling1978 said:

True, but collectors have long known of who Ant-man is and his deficiencies, nothing new has come out to change that recently, yet value wise TTA 27 still historically outpaced the likes of DD1, and ST 110, and was worth around 50-60% of JIM 83 as recently as last year. I'm still not sure what changed in the past months where TTA 27 hit a brick wall while others hit a speed boost. Looking back at 2020 GPA averages, books like ST 110, DD1, and JIM 83 are seeing massive jumps. Thor and Dr Strange are long established in the MCU so there's nothing new there. So all this has made me wonder what's up with Ant-man in the past 5 or so months and has a collecting shift taken place where the book is now less desired by long standing collectors or is this more being driven by  new collectors who don't care as much about the character being one of the early Marvel heroes and don't value those TTA books the same way. 

Keys take turns appreciating.  Fantastic Four popped, Hulk 180 and 181 went up,  X-men jumped, Daredevil 1 exploded.  TTA 27 is an important and early key and it will have it's time in the sun.  I like the cover to TTA27, like the character and think Paul Rudd was very likeable as Antman and thought the 2015 movie was one of the better and charming Marvel movies.

[the blob]

On 5/3/2021 at 1:56 PM, serling1978 said:

I don't think the movies did the character any favors. The stories weren't at the same level as other MCU work, the villains were extremely weak, and like you said they didn't even star Hank Pym. 

I felt equally disappointed with how Ultron was handled. I guess since Hank Pym created Ultron its only fitting that they both got the shaft in the MCU. 

Disagree. These are exactly the sorts of villians Ant Man needs to be up against. These are fun and funny (at times) movies. I look forward to the next one. Granted, probably not to the point I need to see it on the big screen, but maybe. I find Rudd endearing for some reason. He is always cast as the handsome guy, but usually is falling down around him, so I find him likeable.

 

[serling1978]

On 5/4/2021 at 2:24 PM, the blob said:

Disagree. These are exactly the sorts of villians Ant Man needs to be up against. These are fun and funny (at times) movies. I look forward to the next one. Granted, probably not to the point I need to see it on the big screen, but maybe. I find Rudd endearing for some reason. He is always cast as the handsome guy, but usually is falling down around him, so I find him likeable.

 

I'd be all for some b villians like Egghead or Whirlwind. El Toro anyone? I just didn't find the Ghost to be interesting or worthy in the last outing . 

The rumors that Kang will be the baddie in the next Ant-man/Wasp movie is pretty intriguing. 

[The lips]

I can never see TTA 27 / 35 / 44 becoming that hot for the reason that it’s well, erm, Ant Man

 

ok it might increase a bit but they’ll get nowhere near the big league books 

[Vixom]

I sold all my ant-man books but if I didn't or came across one today I would hold onto it thinking it will increase. Same with anything else that hasn't jumped. Ironman? I dunno what all hasn't gone up. But no reason those books can't do the same as Thor falcon daredevil punisher. 

[FatComicMafia]

Howdy Ho!

I think part of the problem with Ant Man's "first appearance" is that it is defused a bit.

Tales to Astonish #27 vs.Tales to Astonish #35.

I see that Wikipedia lists Ant Man's first appearance as Tales to Astonish #35 and I concur. 

If I recall, there were two try out issues during the pre-hero titles approximately January, 1962. I remember reading that whichever similar issue, insect related character had the more favorable response would then return and become a super-hero.

 

So for me, Tales to Astonish #35 features the first super-hero appearance of the Ant Man. (yes, I have a stack of NM copies).In costume, on the cover, the Ant Man super-hero and in action.

To drive the point further, I would assume if Peter Parker appeared in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14 and had a partial origin, but not in costume, while it would have extra value, it would not be Spider-man's first appearance. Especially if he appeared in a later issue in costume, as a named super hero, and on the cover to boot. 

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by FatComicMafia

[StillOnly25Cents]

Avengers 181 is such a beautiful cover 

[serling1978]

9 hours ago, FatComicMafia said:

Howdy Ho!

I think part of the problem with Ant Man's "first appearance" is that it is defused a bit.

Tales to Astonish #27 vs.Tales to Astonish #35.

I see that Wikipedia lists Ant Man's first appearance ad Tales to Astonish #35 and I concur. 

If I recall, there were two try out issues during the pre-hero titles approximately January, 1962. I remember reading that whichever similar issue, insect related character had the more favorable response would then return and become a super-hero.

 

So for me, Tales to Astonish #35 features the first super-hero appearance of the Ant Man. (yes, I have a stack of NM copies).In costume, on the cover, the Ant Man super-hero and in action.

To drive the point further, I would assume if Peter Parker appeared in Amazing Fantasy #14 and had a partial origin, but not in costume, while it would have extra value, it would not be Spider-man's first appearance. Especially if he appeared in a later issue in costume, as a named super hero, and on the cover to boot. 

 

 

 

Agree that it hurts the value of his character because the first appearance is essentially split between two books. Kind of like Carol Danvers and Mrs Marvel. 

[KirbyJack]

I’ve never been able to buy into the Astonish 27 / Suspense 32 theory. 
 

The timeline doesn’t work: Astonish 27 is cover dated 1-62, Suspense 32 is 8-62, and Astonish 35 is 9-62. They didn’t have time to get sales results from Suspense 32 before making the decision to go with Ant-Man the next month.

It’s possible they drew up Bee-Man, looked at it, and went, “Yeah, let’s go with Ant-Man.”

[FatComicMafia]

Yes, hard to say, Lee and Kirby may have wanted to replicate more of the Man in the Ant Hill vibe. However, I speculate that the covers (TTA #27 & TOS #32) may have been drawn around  the same time? They seem too similar to replicate later, and one direction was chosen at first over the other?

Regardless, The first "Ant Man" superhero appearance would be Tales to Astonish #35.

TTA #27 is more of the first appearance of the sci fi /mad scientist /pre-hero type, later to be conceptualized as a superhero. 

I think the CGC label should be modified for TTA #27 as first appearance of Dr. Hank Pym (who later becomes Ant man). Maybe partial origin.

Tales to Astonish #35 should be noted as First Appearance of Ant Man. In addition to origin and costume as well.

It's pretty clear cut.

Now, Sgt. Rock's first appearance, now that is still a little more vague and complicated.

Edited May 8, 2021 by FatComicMafia

[bc]

3 hours ago, KirbyJack said:

I’ve never been able to buy into the Astonish 27 / Suspense 32 theory. 
 

The timeline doesn’t work: Astonish 27 is cover dated 1-62, Suspense 32 is 8-62, and Astonish 35 is 9-62. They didn’t have time to get sales results from Suspense 32 before making the decision to go with Ant-Man the next month.

It’s possible they drew up Bee-Man, looked at it, and went, “Yeah, let’s go with Ant-Man.”

I'm with you on this.

As far as the TTA27 vs TOS32 theory goes....

The Job Code for the TTA27 Ant Hill story is V-430 while the TOS32 Bee Hive story code is V-765 (335 jobs/stories later). On average they had 50 jobs per month, which would line up with the 7 month difference between these two issues dates that you pointed out.

Given that the TOS32 story wouldn't be assigned to an artist for several months later, it is highly unlikely the covers were created anywhere near the same time. Any cover similarities are likely purely a coincidence of being drawn by the same (very busy) artist.

Think the whole idea about both being try-out issues to determine the most popular has become somewhat of an urban myth in the hobby. It's not like Stan ever exaggerated to add to the hype

-bc