Cameo Appearance Debate 1 1

[siro123]

How many panels is still a cameo appearance ?

Is a Full Page Last Page Splash still a cameo ?

Does anyone know how CGC determines this ?

Lets discuss....

 

 

[Tnexus]

A cameo is technically the first appearance, but because all the pump and dumpers who missed the boat now have to settle for the second app, they like to call it the "First Full Appearance".

[StillOnly25Cents]

[The lips]

As an example, and in my opinion…First appearance of wolverine is IH180 as is first appearance of Venom ASM299. 
 

There the issues when we first see them in all their glory. 

[Icctrombone]

I'm thinking that anything that will sell the book is used. Taskmaster appears in the last age of Avengers # 195, but 196 is being considered the first appearance. 

[Lazyboy]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:14 AM, Tnexus said:

A cameo is technically the first appearance, but because all the pump and dumpers who missed the boat now have to settle for the second app, they like to call it the "First Full Appearance".

Some people actually read comics.

Plus, cameo and first appearance are mutually exclusive.

[Bo1983]

Hulk 180 first appearance it’s a shame he didn’t have first appearance with cover just like the joker didn’t have a cover with first appearance!!

[HotKey]

5 hours ago, Amazeron said:

Regardless of cameos and full appearances: A character’s first appearance is a character’s first appearance. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Exactly. 

When you have to add extra descriptions to "first appearance" then you are admitting it isn't. 

[Icctrombone]

6 hours ago, HotKey said:

Exactly. 

When you have to add extra descriptions to "first appearance" then you are admitting it isn't. 

True, but some books are being advertised as first appearance the they are not. Hulk 180 is largely ignored as a key book as compared to 181.

[Axelrod]

Like most things, the “market” decides.  

I think there are a lot of examples where the character debuts on the last page, possibly in the last panel of a book (as mentioned, notably Hulk 180, Spider-Man 299, Avengers 195) and seems like in most of those specific situations the market says that’s a “cameo” and not as valuable as the following book, where the character is more featured.

I’m sure there are a lot of counter-examples where a last page/panel appearance  IS considered the valuable issue (and then the market doesn’t call it a “cameo,”) but if you’re asking for a hard and fast rule,  I don’t  think it exists.

[Off Panel]

Several people have noted (and I agree) that the word “cameo” is problematic. Most would consider a “cameo” to be a brief guest appearance of an already established character.

If I ruled the world, I would change this to “first glimpse” appearance. We see the character for the first time, maybe a partial drawing or maybe “in all his glory” (or her glory, or its glory as the case may be), but only in a single page or panel. This is to whet the reader’s appetite and ensure they show up next month for the first full appearance. In my mind, while valuable and significant, these panels might as well be titled “Next Month in Incredible Hulk!” (or Amazing Spider-man, etc).

I do see a lot of value in these “first glimpse” appearances (and so does the market — an Incredible Hulk 180 in CGC 9.8 may set you back $40k these days! Respect!), but as a collector, the “first full appearance” is my priority. I think that is true for most, which is why 181 is the more valuable book.

If you ask comic book collectors what happened in Wolverine’s first appearance, the vast majority will say, “He fought the Hulk!” (IH 181).

Very few will say, “He struck a pose and shouted his own name!” (IH 180). 

[Msgarmar]

Also add in to the mix “First cover appearance” which is sometimes and sometimes not noted by CGC depending on the book. 

[Wall-Crawler]

This is a "classic" debate and I'll use ASM 25 as example of cameo vs first appearance.

ASM 25 - Mary Jane's first appearance IS a cameo as her face is obstructed by a flower and only has a few lines.

ASM 42 - Last panel but big entrance with her classic line. That's a first appearance (to me). But CGC says her face revealed in cameo for first time and not until ASM 43 we get the first full MJ designation.  But does anyone care about 43 all the much?

Avengers 195 -  I consider the first Taskmaster.  He has a nearly full page spread and interacting with other characters. Nothing is obscured. First appearance. 

Incredible Hulk 180 -  You see Wolverine in full costume, interacting with the other characters. nothing is obscured. First appearance.

I actually think ASM 299 is worse though than the IH 180/181 debate as you have the second last page of Venom "in shadow", which if it ended there I would consider a cameo but he is still interacting with characters and the last page is a full page reveal of Venom. Two pages. The last if full page spread. That's first Venom. 

...Now if someone can tell me why people pay more for SMPJO 134 as Darkseid first cameo where he is essentially a talking turd on a screen in a tiny panel as opposed to later more fullsome cameo/appearance or why CGC labels this one 1st appearance of Darkseid in cameo on last page I'd love to know the logic on that one 😂

To me, if you have an unobstucted/nearly full view of the character, there is nothing "hidden" (like say in shadows) and they are having dialogue/interactions with other characters that should be the benchmark or something similar as to the difference between cameo and a first appearance.

[Icctrombone]

There was a time in the 90’s that Valiant comics were placing first appearances in random books. It made it an interesting search for “key” books. 

[Cat]

Then there's Gambit's first appearance. Do you go with story first appearance, or by ship date first appearance? It's all such a mess. 

[Lazyboy]

10 hours ago, Off Panel said:

Several people have noted (and I agree) that the word “cameo” is problematic. Most would consider a “cameo” to be a brief guest appearance of an already established character.

If I ruled the world, I would change this to “first glimpse” appearance. We see the character for the first time, maybe a partial drawing or maybe “in all his glory” (or her glory, or its glory as the case may be), but only in a single page or panel. This is to whet the reader’s appetite and ensure they show up next month for the first full appearance. In my mind, while valuable and significant, these panels might as well be titled “Next Month in Incredible Hulk!” (or Amazing Spider-man, etc).

First teaser appearance.

10 hours ago, Off Panel said:

If you ask comic book collectors what happened in Wolverine’s first appearance, the vast majority will say, “He fought the Hulk!” (IH 181).

Very few will say, “He struck a pose and shouted his own name!” (IH 180). 

Yeah, and it's not limited to collectors.

Of course, calling Hulk 181 Wolverine's (unqualified) first appearance is incorrect regardless of the source.

[Jeffro.]

On 7/2/2021 at 12:36 AM, siro123 said:

 

Lets discuss....

Let's not unless it's to mock and deride.

in other words...

Edited July 5, 2021 by Jeffro.

[Lazyboy]

8 hours ago, Wall-Crawler said:

...Now if someone can tell me why people pay more for SMPJO 134 as Darkseid first cameo where he is essentially a talking turd on a screen in a tiny panel as opposed to later more fullsome cameo/appearance or why CGC labels this one 1st appearance of Darkseid in cameo on last page I'd love to know the logic on that one 😂

look here

8 hours ago, Wall-Crawler said:

To me, if you have an unobstucted/nearly full view of the character, there is nothing "hidden" (like say in shadows) and they are having dialogue/interactions with other characters that should be the benchmark or something similar as to the difference between cameo and a first appearance.

As I recently pointed out in another thread, that's not how it works. It's brief presence and full presence, not partial depiction and full depiction.

[William-James88]

On 7/4/2021 at 12:51 PM, Wall-Crawler said:

 

I actually think ASM 299 is worse though than the IH 180/181 debate as you have the second last page of Venom "in shadow", which if it ended there I would consider a cameo but he is still interacting with characters and the last page is a full page reveal of Venom. Two pages. The last if full page spread. That's first Venom. 

 

299 is indeed first venom, I don't think there is much debate amongst fans who read the book, regardless of what the CGC label says. I remember discussing it a while back on these boards and 300 isn't wanted more principally because people see it as the first venom but because it's an anniversary issue with one of the most classic comic covers of all time. 

And anyways, as I have stated elsewhere, CGC currently reports Batman 357 as being Killer Croc's first full appearance rather than a cameo so there is no rhyme or reason (although I do think that's a literal mistake that just wasn't caught by them).

for more info, see here: https://www.comictom101.com/post/batman-357-is-a-crock-of-s

And some people are rather upset about how CGC is labelling Batman 357

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by William-James88

[Lazyboy]

5 hours ago, William-James88 said:

299 is indeed first venom, I don't think there is much debate amongst fans who read the book

What? Venom appears on the last page of the previous issue, and that's without even getting into the two Web issues.