Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:48 PM, Karl Liebl said:

Collect bottle caps

[Buzzetta]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:24 PM, Karl Liebl said:

The stinky cheap newsprint of comics and it’s survivability make them rare and collectible. Is everything a collectible?  In a 1000 years maybe!  People bought video games for the game not the package.  Comic books are not the same. I just think it’s silly that video game packaging is worth millions. More than action comics 1 even!  More than any collectible perhaps!  I’ll sell you a vacuum cleaner catalog from 1952 for 400000. Deal?

Glad I could help.  Let me know when you read the rest and if that answers your question. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:24 PM, Karl Liebl said:

 I’ll sell you a vacuum cleaner catalog from 1952

That sucks....

Is it a Newsstand?  

Pics or it never happened. 

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:27 PM, Buzzetta said:

Glad I could help.  Let me know when you read the rest and if that answers your question. 

Are the brown brick legos edible?

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:32 PM, Karl Liebl said:

Are the brown brick legos edible?

You can eat just about anything.  

Whether you digest/pass it is another story.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Kind of like these prices on graded games or the grades of the Promise Pedigree.  

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

A WATA founder (with others) bought your game for a record price, promoted it as evidence of a booming market, went on TV and posed as an ordinary collector, not disclosing he's actually a founder of the grading company that graded the game he's holding in his hand, has a discussion with the president of the the grading company he helped found, they pretend they don't know each other while talking about the million dollar value of the game. 

If you don't see it, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it in terms you would accept. Though you sure seemed surprised.

 

 

 

 

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

A WATA founder (with others) bought your game for a record price, promoted it as evidence of a booming market, went on TV and posed as an ordinary collector, not disclosing he's actually a founder of the grading company that graded the game he's holding in his hand, has a discussion with the president of the the grading company he helped found, they pretend they don't know each other while talking about the million dollar value of the game. 

If you don't see it, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it in terms you would accept. Though you sure seemed surprised.

 

 

Isn't this the Pawn Star schtick though? It's a reality show. When they pretend to spontaneously call an "expert" in to evaluate some item that a "random person", all of that stuff is arranged ahead of time, and everyone knows each other.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not making an ethical judgment. I'm neither saying it's right or wrong, but it's how those shows work. Similarly, lots of stuff mentioned in the video, like the subjectivity of grading, the labelling of collections, etc, is just how that stuff works. When you stack these things together, you can make anyone/anything look ultra shady. And maybe these things are shady by your subjective value judgement, but there's a large gap between subjectively shady and establishing a big, heavy word like FRAUD. Maybe we could start at establishing a clear line between marketing and market manipulation.

Just take your knowledge of the comic market, all the scandals, inconsistencies with CGC, the CPR game, etc and imagine what kind of video you could make, if you were so inclined, stacking all of these elements into a compelling argument that virtually nothing about graded comics is legitimate, or at least, is as it appears to be from an outsider's point of view. 

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:00 PM, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz and @Bronty both have more experience with the nuances that I am going to try to explain so you guys feel free to jump in.  You two might disagree on a couple of the aspects or issues I raise but I *think* I can presently explain the basics somewhat clearly.  

Let's back off the idea of comics being art.  The original art is the art and comics are collected bound printed volumes of the art on paper.   Let's forget about comics all together because in reality, as far as I am concerned the only true graded collectable that does not interfere with the usability of the collectable is sports and gaming cards since you can flip it over and get the same experience and usability of the item regardless of whether or not it is graded. 

Grading a video game is really nothing more than grading the packaging it came in and assuming that the contents not only are there and work but that all factory issued paperwork is present.  This mentality toward collecting is very much related to MIB (Mint in Box) toy grading.  You assume that all of the contents contained in the sealed box are also mint and unbroken and were manufactured correctly.   The mentality is that to obtain a sealed box of a toy you are trying to have the most perfect representation of that sealed item as it came off the production floor. 

Now are there problems with this?  Absolutely.  Let's go back to Lego.  Check this listing out on eBay as it is the FMV going rate for this set at around $400.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/224369239367 Lego 10223, Kingdom's Joust is a representation of what everyone collects when they collect MIB samples of items and everything that can go wrong.  To continue this I am going to assume that you are all clicking the link to look at the pictures.  The year that this set arrived, Lego introduced a new plastic recipe for lack of a better word for their brown bricks.   The bricks were VERY brittle and broke easily with many of those parts finding themselves into this particular theme of sets.  I have two of them with both opened.  Lego actually addressed the problem and offered replacement parts.  Everyone learned of this problem within a couple of years.  The plastic dried out VERY quickly and would just snap.  Article LEGO Apologizes for Brittle, Reddish Brown Bricks – Assures Problem is Now Solved.

Now we have a question on that sealed $400 Lego set on eBay.  What are you buying when you buy that set?   I assure you that the set has those particular bricks in question that will snap.  Again, I know because I have two of the sets and have had to swap out the brown bricks.   Are you buying a presentation of the best model you could find off the shelf of your favorite toy?   Are you buying an actual Lego set to open and build?  If it is the second one, you can still contact Lego and they will help you out.  However, the value of the set has gone down once you open the package.

The same holds true with vintage SW Toys still sealed in the box, Transformers were not sold in window boxes, and most definitely the one thing I always tell people to stay away from, MIB GI Joe playsets which contain the most brittle plastic I have ever seen.  

With a video game you are not buying a graded and sealed game to play the same way you are not buying a graded and sealed comic to read.   It's supposed to sit on your shelf and look pretty.   However, yes, you do not know if the game will actually work just the same way that I can tell you that I have no idea if the $1,300 sealed Lego set I sold last month has problems with the brown bricks.    You won't know unless you crack it open and see.  But once you do that you no longer have a factory sealed sample of the best representation possible of the product. 

 

 

 

 

All I can say is sealed state collecting isn't for the faint of heart. I've owned 40-60 year old sealed toys that eventually had some functional characteristic that maintained the integrity of the sealed toy start to fail. I've owned toys where it was/is known to have plastics which were brittle. I avoided those. Even sold an entire set of MOC Star Wars because I knew the inevitable was going to happen, and the inevitable was that the plastic was going to first crack, then combust spontaneously like a DETOLF. It took one loss to figure that out for me. Ultimately, I don't care for the notion that having a sealed state collectible in a tamper evident case being the be all, end all. I've told this to many people who flashed an AFA graded toy where the tape seals lifted - whether you're a purist or are just concerned with the value of the things you collect, there is no way that same toy no longer demonstrating sealed ends should be considered sealed, nor is the grade on the label valid any longer.

But what about the sealed contents? Or if the box is "minty?"

Those are all fine too, but I'm not paying sealed state. And I'm not sure people can appreciate the value difference, but it's a significant hit. The rarity of the item will always trump the rest. If you have something that is so bloody rare, it matters most that it's complete. If you can somehow luck out and have it still sealed, it better not involve tape. The one thing that is counter-intuitive to using tamper evident cases with toys prone to degradation is that we don't know enough about how they contribute - or worse, accelerate - the cascading effects of decomposition, degradation or disintegration. In the MOC collecting categories, yellowing is the tell-tale sign. In comics, it's brittle pages. Certain plastics give you an indication by the way it discolours, some aren't as forgiving or helpful in alerting you. The way the toy spent it's afterlife from the time it was liberated from a retail shelf, rack or display is important, but what's far more important are the serial flipping tendencies. An item changing hands multiple times in a calendar year - well, I don't have to tell you how this fares in some of the collectible categories, look at what's happening with comics shifting in slabs? Many here might not know enough about this, but one of the consignors of those high grade Star Wars (SW) MOC's that first sold at Hakes, then reappeared less than a year later on Heritage took a bath, and his reason for selling was he lived in a hot climate, and just having those in his possession for those 6 or 7 months was enough for him to sell them. Whether it's a sealed LEGO set, a sealed SMB or a sealed MOC, I'd rather know more about the way it was kept, how many times it has changed hands, and to minimize the amount of time it's out in transit, if I can't pick it up in person myself.

One outlier in this is electronics. I remember seeing a friend complain that they sold a sealed vintage item, I may be getting my stories crossed here, but I believe it was a vintage calculator. Not to bore people with details, but this particular calculator enjoyed a cachet beyond it's ability to crunch numbers, it was used in a product shot in a foreign unlicensed toy. Finding the calculator photographed for that product packaging became something of a quest for select collectors. Anyway, he sold it to someone, that person bought it, opened it, found it didn't work, and wanted a refund. The problem is he opened it, and killed over half of the value in the process. Many might think not a big deal, but it wasn't a small amount, and finding one in a sealed package is insanely rare. I know auctioneers like Hakes specify in their terms that when you buy a vintage item that either is electronic in nature, or has electronic features, you are buying the item with no warranty or guarantee it will work - rather, you are buying it for its aesthetic appeal and/or for it's displaying awesomeness. For many, this would be rather obvious, but due to the remote possibility someone will find something to complain about, it's not a bad idea to specify this limitation in any item you list for sale.

Edited August 27, 2021 by comicwiz

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:40 PM, COI said:

Isn't this the Pawn Star schtick though? It's a reality show. When they pretend to spontaneously call an "expert" in to evaluate some item that a "random person", all of that stuff is arranged ahead of time, and everyone knows each other.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not making an ethical judgment. I'm neither saying it's right or wrong, but it's how those shows work. Similarly, lots of stuff mentioned in the video, like the subjectivity of grading, the labelling of collections, etc, is just how that stuff works. When you stack these things together, you can make anyone/anything look ultra shady. And maybe these things are shady by your subjective value judgement, but there's a large gap between subjectively shady and establishing a big, heavy word like FRAUD. Maybe we could start at establishing a clear line between marketing and market manipulation.

Just take your knowledge of the comic market, all the scandals, inconsistencies with CGC, the CPR game, etc and imagine what kind of video you could make, if you were so inclined, stacking all of these elements into a compelling argument that virtually nothing about graded comics is legitimate, or at least, is as it appears to be from an outsider's point of view. 

Once again this is the "Other people are doing it" argument....

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:44 PM, kav said:

Once again this is the "Other people are doing it" argument....

Once again, I'm not making the argument you think I'm making. 

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:41 PM, comicwiz said:

All I can say is sealed state collecting isn't for the faint of heart. I've owned 40-60 year old sealed toys that eventually had some functional characteristic that maintained the integrity of the sealed toy start to fail. I've owned toys where it was/is known to have plastics which were brittle. I avoided those. Even sold an entire set of MOC Star Wars because I knew the inevitable was going to happen, and the inevitable was that the plastic was going to first crack, then combust spontaneously like a DETOLF. It took one loss to figure that out for me. Ultimately, I don't care for the notion that having a sealed state collectible in a tamper evident case being the be all, end all. I've told this to many people who flashed an AFA graded toy where the tape seals lifted - whether you're a purist or are just concerned with the value of the things you collect, there is no way that same toy no longer demonstrating sealed ends should be a valid grade any longer. But the sealed contents. Or the box is "minty." Those are all fine too, but I'm not paying sealed state. And I'm not sure people can appreciate the value difference, but it's a significant hit. The rarity of the item will always trump the rest. If you have something that is so bloody rare, it matters most that it's complete. If you can somehow luck out and have it still sealed, it better not involve tape. The one thing that is counter-intuitive to using tamper evident cases with toys prone to degradation is that we don't know enough about how they contribute - or worse, accelerate - the cascading effects of decomposition, degradation or disintegration. In the MOC collecting categories, yellowing is the tell-tale sign. In comics, it's brittle pages. Certain plastics give you an indication by the way it discolours, some aren't as forgiving or helpful in alerting you. The way the toy spent it's afterlife is important, but what's far more important are the serial flipping tendencies. An item changing hands multiple times in a calendar year - well, I don't have to tell you how this fares in some of the collectible categories, look at what's happening with comics shifting in slabs? Many here might not know enough about this, but one of the consignors of those high grade SW MOC's that first sold at Hakes, then reappeared less than a year later on Heritage took a bath, and his reason for selling was he lived in a hot climate, and just having those in his possession for those 6 or 7 months was enough for him to sell them. Whether it's a sealed LEGO set, a sealed SMB or a sealed MOC, I'd rather know more about the way it was kept, how many times it has changed hands, and to minimize the amount of time it's out in transit, if I can't pick it up in person myself.

One outlier in this is electronics. I remember seeing a friend complain that they sold a sealed vintage item, I can't remember if it was a calculator. Not to bore people with details, but this particular calculator enjoyed a cachet beyond it's ability to crunch numbers, it was used in a product shot in a foreign unlicensed toy. Finding the calculator photographed for that product packaging became something of a quest for select collectors. Anyway, he sold it to someone, that person bought it, opened it, found it didn't work, and wanted a refund. The problem is he opened it, and killed over half of the value in the process. Many might think not a big deal, but it wasn't a small amount, and finding one in a sealed package is insanely rare. I know auctioneers like Hakes specify in their terms that when you buy a vintage item that either is electronic in nature, or has electronic features, you are buying the item with no warranty or guarantee it will work - rather, you are buying it for its aesthetic and for displaying. For many, this would be rather obvious, but due to the remote possibility someone will find something to complain about, it's not a bad idea to specify this in any item you list.

battery was probably dead or corroded.  why woud someone buy a valuable electronic item then immediatly destroy half the value by opening it?  

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:46 PM, COI said:

Once again, I'm not making the argument you think I'm making. 

thats the old "you dont understand what I'm REALLY saying" argument, tho....

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:48 PM, kav said:

thats the old "you dont understand what I'm REALLY saying" argument, tho....

So what's my argument, Kav? 

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:47 PM, kav said:

battery was probably dead or corroded.  why woud someone buy a valuable electronic item then immediatly destroy half the value by opening it?  

I'm sure I know the answer - it's a five letter word, starts with i and ends with t.

[Karl Liebl]

How much is a copy of Ultima 3 with cloth map and ankh in mint condition worth?

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

A WATA founder (with others) bought your game for a record price, promoted it as evidence of a booming market, went on TV and posed as an ordinary collector, not disclosing he's actually a founder of the grading company that graded the game he's holding in his hand, has a discussion with the president of the the grading company he helped found, they pretend they don't know each other while talking about the million dollar value of the game. 

If you don't see it, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it in terms you would accept. Though you sure seemed surprised.

 

 

Well, my frustration with all of this all along has been the tossing of facts, errors and accusations into what appears to me to be click bait salad.    Some of the questions asked are good.   But when it’s wrapped in a package of both straight inaccuracies and questionable motivations, I am, as I said earlier, deeply disappointed with the reports.    

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bronty

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:49 PM, COI said:

So what's my argument, Kav? 

Thats the old kobiyashi maru gambit-no matter what I say you say "nope".

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:40 PM, COI said:

Isn't this the Pawn Star schtick though? It's a reality show. When they pretend to spontaneously call an "expert" in to evaluate some item that a "random person", all of that stuff is arranged ahead of time, and everyone knows each other.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I'm not making an ethical judgment. I'm neither saying it's right or wrong, but it's how those shows work. Similarly, lots of stuff mentioned in the video, like the subjectivity of grading, the labelling of collections, etc, is just how that stuff works. When you stack these things together, you can make anyone/anything look ultra shady. And maybe these things are shady by your subjective value judgement, but there's a large gap between subjectively shady and establishing a big, heavy word like FRAUD. Maybe we could start at establishing a clear line between marketing and market manipulation.

Just take your knowledge of the comic market, all the scandals, inconsistencies with CGC, the CPR game, etc and imagine what kind of video you could make, if you were so inclined, stacking all of these elements into a compelling argument that virtually nothing about graded comics is legitimate, or at least, is as it appears to be from an outsider's point of view. 

You're really, really, really grasping at anything to discredit what is a clear-cut conflict of interest. 

Pretend the Pawn Star thing didn't happen.

WATA still promoted this record breaking sale, sent out press releases saying the buyer was Joe Collector, this becomes huge news in the collecting world, sends prices surging, and they purposely hid he was a WATA founder. 

I'm on the board of an art museum. I can't buy a piece at a record price, pretend I'm just an unaffiliated collector, tell people in the national press that it's real value is 10x what I paid for it, and then sell it at the same museum. It's a conflict.

If you don't see it, you don't want to see it.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:40 PM, COI said:

 

Just take your knowledge of the comic market, all the scandals, inconsistencies with CGC, the CPR game, etc and imagine what kind of video you could make, if you were so inclined, stacking all of these elements into a compelling argument that virtually nothing about graded comics is legitimate, or at least, is as it appears to be from an outsider's point of view. 

Back in the day I suggested we create a CGC handbook that details the ins and outs of collecting in this age of encapsulation.  I got a vacation for it.  
 

Knowledge is power & ignorance is bliss.

 Choose your poison....