Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[Buzzetta]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:39 AM, MasterChief said:

Is this the book you're referring to?

Yes !

[jaybuck43]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:29 AM, Buzzetta said:

Yes !

I wonder if Joey can press that out?

[alexgross.com]

On 8/27/2021 at 11:05 PM, jcjames said:

Its good that you have it planned and I really hope it works out that way. The day I was hired back in 1997 in my current career, I knew exactly the date I would retire with my pension at 58 years old, which would have been next year. But then I got stage four cancer at 49 and that threw my original plans down the drain. Approaching eight years later now and I've had to tweak those original retirement plans just a teensy bit. 

hope your fight is going alright. eight years with stage 4 cancer is no joke.

the illusion that the future is promised to any of us, or that we have any real control over it, is a hard one to shake. 

[mattn792]

On 8/28/2021 at 4:39 AM, MasterChief said:

Is this the book you're referring to?

Wow, a Dylan 8.5 in real time.  

[namisgr]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:43 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

It really wasn’t.  If you showed up in 2004, your hazing would have been 10 fold. 

Tell me about it.  

[JollyComics]

[Transplant]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:27 PM, Bronty said:

On 8/27/2021 at 6:18 PM, jaybuck43 said:

So there’s a question bouncing around my head that doesn’t make sense. 
 

In 2017 WATA for all intents and purposes does not exist. VGA is THE company to grade video games. 

Now in 2018 WATA embarks on a tour to various conventions around the country to advertise their services. I distinctly remember seeing them at NYCC 2018 and asking if they were going to offer an “excavation pedigree” for ET copies. Spoke to them about their product for a few minutes, wished them luck on their future endeavors and walked away. (As I said previously, while I have a large used video game collection, I’m not in the habit of grading them.) WATA came with several display games including Dan’s SMB. None of that was surprising, Borock did the same thing a few years prior when CBCS launched (set up a booth, showed off books in slabs, and hyped the new company.)

So now to my question. What was the arrangement to tour the SMB? I mean you’re talking about THE holy grail of video game collecting right? (Oldest known copy of the most popular NES game out there.) Already Dan had turned down $50,000 offers for it so he has an idea of the value. Heck when he wacked up the collection it came from he and his partner valued it at something like between $2-4,000 in 2012 way before the mini boom in video games in the mid 2010s. So he’s always believed it was a valuable item. But…. You just crack it out, have WATA repackage it, and hand it to them for 9 months or so to tour it all over the country with no guarantee of anything in return? I mean who’s covering the insurance? What happens if it gets damaged in transit? Or worse, lost? WATA is using it in their promotional materials. Did you get paid for publicity rights? For instance when IDW approaches OA owners about scanning their art for artist additions these are always things discussed right? How it gets there safely, whose responsible in case of damage, and of course rights to publicity since IDW is gonna sell all those beautiful books at $100+ a pop. So why help WATA promote their business? It might help increase the value of your individual game, sure, but most realistically all it’s going to do is attract people to submit their games to WATA, and they make their money off that, you don’t. In other words, all the risk, (mostly) none of the reward. 
 

Again, going back to my initial post, I’m looking at the smell test, and this just smells off. Someone lends a company a super valuable instrument to help gain the company notoriety ostensibly out of altruism, which tour then ends with Heritage signing an exclusive deal with said company, and a month later, boom said instrument just so happens to become the most valuable video game sale in history. To paraphrase the late Howard baker what did you know sir and when did you know it?

Expand  

Simply lent to them, as did others with other notable games, to enable them to have some notable items for display.   The same way others have lent artwork to exhibits etc.   
 

A lot of the questions you ask - what if it gets damaged etc, frankly weren’t considered.   Maybe you think that’s crazy, but remember , I’m 90% art collector for a decade at that point.   Those questions would have been asked if I was lending cover art.    Lending a game?   Meh, just a game even if a really nice one. 

Wait, what?  

Look, I don't know you or the facts behind this stuff enough to judge.  Sometimes I jump in here to point what seem like really weird circumstances or positions or allegations, whatever.  But, what you just laid out is a really weird fact pattern.  I do recall enough to know that your passion seems to lie with videogame art and other art.  But, this is a game that IIRC, you turned down $50k shortly before this time period.  You said yourself that you advised the WATA folks on some things.  I get it.  

But you just loaned them a $50k or more piece of {anything: art/game/comic/electronics/pottery} with absolutely NO discussion of it being insured against being damaged or stolen and no compensation to you for the advertising use of it?  Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, I don't mean to.  

And then, you let WATA (a brand new company) regrade it without any compensation or assurances of a grade?  And you did so, with or without any agreement in place for the SMB to sell at a certain price later in its new WATA holder/grade?  You just rolled the dice?  Was there no deal in place to assure a minimum value or buy it outright from you before it went to WATA to grade and then to Heritage to auction? Nothing?  

Frankly, I do think it's crazy to loan, even "just a game even if a really nice one", to someone for advertising purposes, that's valued in the mid-five figures at a minimum, with absolutely no assurance regarding insurance or compensation.  And I think it's a crazy gamble to let them regrade something you owned as the pinnacle of the hobby at the time, with no assurance regarding the new grade or any protection against a drop in value as a result.  

If you came on and responded to Jay with "none of your business" or "I'm not commenting on that"; I could understand that, but to come here and say, "Meh, it ain't no thang." Well, I'd love to hear more about your thought process.  Those are some freaking good friends to let them roadshow it; crack it and auction, all for no gain to you.  

[Buzzetta]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:05 AM, jcjames said:

Its good that you have it planned and I really hope it works out that way. The day I was hired back in 1997 in my current career, I knew exactly the date I would retire with my pension at 58 years old, which would have been next year. But then I got stage four cancer at 49 and that threw my original plans down the drain. Approaching eight years later now and I've had to tweak those original retirement plans just a teensy bit. 

I applaud you beating cancer and keep it up.  You should have a long life ahead of you. 

That's been on my mind in the even that something happens... but I really cannot see any type of scenario that does not derail my departure date.  I don't plan on sitting on a beach and watching the world go by and I will find a new path shortly after it.  But at some point after I am eligible I am putting in the paperwork.  

[jcjames]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:23 AM, alexgross.com said:

hope your fight is going alright. eight years with stage 4 cancer is no joke.

the illusion that the future is promised to any of us, or that we have any real control over it, is a hard one to shake. 

Thanks. I am immensely blessed beyond belief. Eight years and every day is a battle and it still goes on. It changes everything. 

You're right, tomorrow is not promised to anyone. 

[jimjum12]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:22 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

A WATA founder (with others) bought your game for a record price, promoted it as evidence of a booming market, went on TV and posed as an ordinary collector, not disclosing he's actually a founder of the grading company that graded the game he's holding in his hand, has a discussion with the president of the the grading company he helped found, they pretend they don't know each other while talking about the million dollar value of the game. 

If you don't see it, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it in terms you would accept. Though you sure seemed surprised.

 

 

While these may be valid concerns, in the early stages of many hobbies, the record sales often occur between dealers. They are typically the first to be invested in the genre, having a first hand exposure to any popularity increases. The only real difference here is that the internet now casts a bright and unwavering light on people's affairs and a commentator's opinions begin to be presented as fact. Putting alleged thoughts in another person's mind and presented as fact also seems to occur more often now. The gleam of the web also adds to a sometimes false credibility, or what was once called "spin". GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited August 28, 2021 by jimjum12

[AJLewandoski]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:13 PM, Transplant said:

Wait, what?  

Look, I don't know you or the facts behind this stuff enough to judge.  Sometimes I jump in here to point what seem like really weird circumstances or positions or allegations, whatever.  But, what you just laid out is a really weird fact pattern.  I do recall enough to know that your passion seems to lie with videogame art and other art.  But, this is a game that IIRC, you turned down $50k shortly before this time period.  You said yourself that you advised the WATA folks on some things.  I get it.  

But you just loaned them a $50k or more piece of {anything: art/game/comic/electronics/pottery} with absolutely NO discussion of it being insured against being damaged or stolen and no compensation to you for the advertising use of it?  Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, I don't mean to.  

And then, you let WATA (a brand new company) regrade it without any compensation or assurances of a grade?  And you did so, with or without any agreement in place for the SMB to sell at a certain price later in its new WATA holder/grade?  You just rolled the dice?  Was there no deal in place to assure a minimum value or buy it outright from you before it went to WATA to grade and then to Heritage to auction? Nothing?  

Frankly, I do think it's crazy to loan, even "just a game even if a really nice one", to someone for advertising purposes, that's valued in the mid-five figures at a minimum, with absolutely no assurance regarding insurance or compensation.  And I think it's a crazy gamble to let them regrade something you owned as the pinnacle of the hobby at the time, with no assurance regarding the new grade or any protection against a drop in value as a result.  

If you came on and responded to Jay with "none of your business" or "I'm not commenting on that"; I could understand that, but to come here and say, "Meh, it ain't no thang." Well, I'd love to hear more about your thought process.  Those are some freaking good friends to let them roadshow it; crack it and auction, all for no gain to you.  

Boy oh boy this was a tough saga to sit through. The collusion presented in the video, if accurate, is concerning, but as the narrator said intent is hard to prove, and in the internet age providing hard evidence is even more difficult.

I may have a unique perspective to share as I also collect video games. The rarity of the game in question is not something the average video game collector would ever care about. Only the literal most hard-core video game collectors have ever cared about or paid a premium for these variants. Sticker seal vs. shrink wrapped, Rev A vs. Rev B, or hang tab vs non hang tab boxes, these would fall into niche collecting like price variants in comics. 

I happen to have known of a great portion of those involved as longtime members on the now (mostly) defunct Nintendo Age forum. As they were known over there BreaKBeatZ (Deniz Khan), K. Thrower (Kenneth Thrower), Dain (Dain Anderson), Bronty (Dan) and a few others whose forum names I can't remember, have at least known of each other, and been in this market a lot longer than this ongoing "scandal". Dan's loan of SMBs is surely less suspect knowing there's more than just a surface level relationship between them. He's been in on graded games before the inception of VGA, and now he's placed his faith in WATA as the premiere grading source because he knows the quality of the people involved with the operation, and can trust their grading over VGAs. I mean do people really not get that? If you knew cbcs was more accurate at grading than cgc would you still send your comics to cgc? His game got down graded because he had it regraded with them, so that only proves more stringent standards from WATA even as a someone they know.

Sorry if this comes off as me tooting his horn, I don't know him personally, but I can only imagine his OA collection most likely exceeds the value of that game. If anyone doubts Dan's intentions he's been in the high end sealed video game market a lot longer than this recent bubble. He's had sealed games worth 5 figures for over a decade, and he's always been a collector of the highest echelon. Obviously I don't speak for him, but he has been out of active collecting for a long time as well, so I don't think he has the same passion for the actual games anymore, and you could see what may be taken as some apathy or nonchalance about them.

Markets change, and if the hedge funds and wall street feel they can make money in these things no one can stop them. Is it frustrating being priced out? Sure, I hate that I can't afford a Marvel Comics #1, but so long as there's someone out there willing to bet on the prices that are being asked they'll be sustained or keep going up.

[jimjum12]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:18 PM, Buzzetta said:

I applaud you beating cancer and keep it up.  You should have a long life ahead of you. 

That's been on my mind in the even that something happens... but I really cannot see any type of scenario that does not derail my departure date.  I don't plan on sitting on a beach and watching the world go by and I will find a new path shortly after it.  But at some point after I am eligible I am putting in the paperwork.  

Yeah, leisure will lose it's luster if that's all there is. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jcjames]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:18 AM, Buzzetta said:

I applaud you beating cancer and keep it up.  You should have a long life ahead of you. 

That's been on my mind in the even that something happens... but I really cannot see any type of scenario that does not derail my departure date.  I don't plan on sitting on a beach and watching the world go by and I will find a new path shortly after it.  But at some point after I am eligible I am putting in the paperwork.  

Thanks, I hope so. It's a daily battle. 

[comicwiz]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:08 PM, AJLewandoski said:

I mean do people really not get that? If you knew cbcs was more accurate at grading than cgc would you still send your comics to cgc? His game got down graded because he had it regraded with them, so that only proves more stringent standards from WATA even as a someone they know.

I consider myself having a steeped understanding of grading companies. I said it in 2019 when the fireworks went off on these boards over the $100K SMB sale, and I'll say it again. There is nothing WATA did that VGA hadn't already been doing competently, to justify their meteoric rise. Zip. Zilch. Nada. If anything, your comparison to CBCS - if I have to be frank and forthright, misses the mark so bad you might have people asking you to get your eyes checked. Borock gave CBCS instant credibility when CGC's credibility was (and in my personal opinion, still is) in tatters. Seeing Halperin's bio on WATA's website was like seeing Dupchak affiliated with a grader. What else is there to say. You can talk about those guys from the gaming forums like they knew something about how to inspect, assess, and provide an opinion on sealed state games, but to me, they had no experience advantage to VGA, and anyone that knew anything about Halperin's past, it was fishy from the go.

Edited August 28, 2021 by comicwiz

[jaybuck43]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:08 PM, AJLewandoski said:

Boy oh boy this was a tough saga to sit through. The collusion presented in the video, if accurate, is concerning, but as the narrator said intent is hard to prove, and in the internet age providing hard evidence is even more difficult.

I may have a unique perspective to share as I also collect video games. The rarity of the game in question is not something the average video game collector would ever care about. Only the literal most hard-core video game collectors have ever cared about or paid a premium for these variants. Sticker seal vs. shrink wrapped, Rev A vs. Rev B, or hang tab vs non hang tab boxes, these would fall into niche collecting like price variants in comics. 

I happen to have known of a great portion of those involved as longtime members on the now (mostly) defunct Nintendo Age forum. As they were known over there BreaKBeatZ (Deniz Khan), K. Thrower (Kenneth Thrower), Dain (Dain Anderson), Bronty (Dan) and a few others whose forum names I can't remember, have at least known of each other, and been in this market a lot longer than this ongoing "scandal". Dan's loan of SMBs is surely less suspect knowing there's more than just a surface level relationship between them. He's been in on graded games before the inception of VGA, and now he's placed his faith in WATA as the premiere grading source because he knows the quality of the people involved with the operation, and can trust their grading over VGAs. I mean do people really not get that? If you knew cbcs was more accurate at grading than cgc would you still send your comics to cgc? His game got down graded because he had it regraded with them, so that only proves more stringent standards from WATA even as a someone they know.

Sorry if this comes off as me tooting his horn, I don't know him personally, but I can only imagine his OA collection most likely exceeds the value of that game. If anyone doubts Dan's intentions he's been in the high end sealed video game market a lot longer than this recent bubble. He's had sealed games worth 5 figures for over a decade, and he's always been a collector of the highest echelon. Obviously I don't speak for him, but he has been out of active collecting for a long time as well, so I don't think he has the same passion for the actual games anymore, and you could see what may be taken as some apathy or nonchalance about them.

Markets change, and if the hedge funds and wall street feel they can make money in these things no one can stop them. Is it frustrating being priced out? Sure, I hate that I can't afford a Marvel Comics #1, but so long as there's someone out there willing to bet on the prices that are being asked they'll be sustained or keep going up.

I appreciate your prospective. No one is saying Dan had a surface level acquaintance with Dennis and Haspel. Indeed, that connection is exactly what has people questioning things. Dan knows and trusts Dennis but the rest of the market has no idea who these guys are. Dan, acting with an arms length transaction from the team, looks at it and goes “hey I know these guys and I think they’ll be great…. But I have no idea how the market will react to it.” CGCS is the absolute best example. Borock enters the market after CGC had over a decade of dominance. The hard core dealers and people in the know were ecstatic. Borocks back baby! He’s gonna light a fire under Cgc, he’s the guy who created Cgc! He knows his stuff! And people rushed out to get cbcs graded…. And the market reacted accordingly. The vast majority of people had no idea who cbcs was, didn’t care about Steve (no offense Steve) and cbcs books routinely auction for less than Cgc copies of the same. Even today, where are you taking an action 1 or tec 27? Cgc or cbcs? 
 

so. Let’s again give Dan the benefit of the doubt and say he’s really excited for wata and is willing to cpr (without the p) his Mario because he really believes in the new company. So Dan cracks out his vga graded game and hands it over to WATA which charges him $150 for the privilege of them showing the game off. K. Now let’s say it tours for 9 months and the market responds with apathy to WATA. Then what? Dan either has to lose money on the value of his game, or pay to resubmit to VGA, which is not a cheap option (2.5% of FMV after all. Even on the $50,000 valuation that’s still $1,250) So Dan would be taking a risk of spending $1,400 and the risk of something happening to his game with no way of knowing if he’d ever see a profit off it? I don’t care how good of friends you are, that’s a sure way to muck up that friendship fast. I have no issue saying he doesn’t have the drive/desire any more in games. That makes sense. As Hans gruber said “and Alexander wept, for there were no more worlds left to concur”. But! Not caring about a game and not caring about an extremely valuable asset are two very different things. I’ve been out of the Pokémon card collecting game since I was 13. But I’m not going to lend you my psa 6.5 charizard first edition just because I know you. It’s a $10,000 card. I own tons of stuff that’s worth more, but still, who lends a friend $10k without SOME collateral. Right? 
 

As to the hedge funds and Wall Street bros etc? They weren’t there until that heritage purchase. That’s the whole point people are talking about. That Halperin and Dennis at a minimum colluded in some fashion to pump the value of WATA graded assets. In turn they benefit on two ends. Halperin sees an increase in BPs that end up in Heritage’s pocket and WATA sees an increase in submissions and price (since anything worth more than $2000 declared value are charged a 2% liability fee). It’s no different than the scam Halperin got busted for in 1989. The difference being the legality. Here he doesn’t own the grading company, Dennis does. But his auction house pumps up the value of the games, they in turn make the market look more appealing, more games flood into wata, FOMO kicks in, and suddenly people are paying ridiculous prices for loose copies of duck hunt because hey it’s gotta be worth something.

[comicwiz]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:28 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The vast majority of people had no idea who cbcs was, didn’t care about Steve (no offense Steve) and cbcs books routinely auction for less than Cgc copies of the same.

Disagree. I've been in a holding pattern for over two years looking for the steals, on key books graded by CBCS that I'm after. Still hasn't happened.

[jaybuck43]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:59 PM, comicwiz said:

Disagree. I've been in a holding pattern for over two years looking for the steals, on key books graded by CBCS that I'm after. Still hasn't happened.

No biggie. Maybe the issue is it’s the particular books you’re looking for. I’ve picked up a ton of books that I’ve cracked and flipped. Nothing major but you can grind out a nice profit doing it. 

[Bronty]

On 8/28/2021 at 12:13 PM, Transplant said:

Wait, what?  

Look, I don't know you or the facts behind this stuff enough to judge.  Sometimes I jump in here to point what seem like really weird circumstances or positions or allegations, whatever.  But, what you just laid out is a really weird fact pattern.  I do recall enough to know that your passion seems to lie with videogame art and other art.  But, this is a game that IIRC, you turned down $50k shortly before this time period.  You said yourself that you advised the WATA folks on some things.  I get it.  

But you just loaned them a $50k or more piece of {anything: art/game/comic/electronics/pottery} with absolutely NO discussion of it being insured against being damaged or stolen and no compensation to you for the advertising use of it?  Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, I don't mean to.  

And then, you let WATA (a brand new company) regrade it without any compensation or assurances of a grade?  And you did so, with or without any agreement in place for the SMB to sell at a certain price later in its new WATA holder/grade?  You just rolled the dice?  Was there no deal in place to assure a minimum value or buy it outright from you before it went to WATA to grade and then to Heritage to auction? Nothing?  

Frankly, I do think it's crazy to loan, even "just a game even if a really nice one", to someone for advertising purposes, that's valued in the mid-five figures at a minimum, with absolutely no assurance regarding insurance or compensation.  And I think it's a crazy gamble to let them regrade something you owned as the pinnacle of the hobby at the time, with no assurance regarding the new grade or any protection against a drop in value as a result.  

If you came on and responded to Jay with "none of your business" or "I'm not commenting on that"; I could understand that, but to come here and say, "Meh, it ain't no thang." Well, I'd love to hear more about your thought process.  Those are some freaking good friends to let them roadshow it; crack it and auction, all for no gain to you.  

Terms can be important and have their place but I focus more on whether I can trust somebody .   If I can trust them anything’s possible, if I can’t trust them then all the terms and assurances in the world mean squat.   I trust the guys at wata, and I trust the guys at VGA.   I would have lent it to either one.   I mean, look, when VGA first started grading video games they consulted me many times on authenticity  questions before they had built up the in house knowledge.      Their whole operation began because Tom Derby had a debt from an old time game collector that he had to resort to legal action on.    The debt was for Star Wars toys but the process of collecting on the debt made tom realize that the debtor had spent a lot of money on sealed games , and that there might be an opportunity in grading them.   When they started up, my list of which games were sealed what way was their initial database.    So I’ve known both camps a long time and both are great.   I would - and have - helped either side because both sides are good people.    And beyond that, I know neither side would have left me hanging if something unfortunate had happened.     I mean, you all ship cgc and cbcs and psa and wata and all of these grading companies your property on the same premise right?     That they are a professional outfit that you have trust in, that isn’t going to simply take or lose your property without making you whole somehow.    

Edited August 28, 2021 by Bronty

[comicwiz]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:01 PM, Bronty said:

Terms can be important and have their place but I focus more on whether I can trust somebody .   If I can trust them anything’s possible, if I can’t trust them then all the terms and assurances in the world mean squat.   I trust the guys at wata, and I trust the guys at VGA.   I would have lent it to either one.   I mean, look, when VGA first started grading video games they consulted me many times on authenticity  questions before they had built up the in house knowledge.      Their whole operation began because Tom Derby had a debt from an old time game collector that he had to resort to legal action on.    The debt was for Star Wars toys but the process of collecting on the debt made tom realize that the debtor had spent a lot of money on sealed games , and that there might be an opportunity in grading them.   When they started up, my list of which games were sealed what way was their initial database.    So I’ve known both camps a long time and both are great.   I would - and have - helped either side because both sides are good people.    And beyond that, I know neither side would have left me hanging if something unfortunate had happened.     I mean, you all ship cgc and cbcs and psa and wata and all of these grading companies your property on the same premise right?     That they are a professional outfit that you have trust in, that isn’t going to simply take or lose your property without making you whole somehow.    

More a sidebar, but the part I bolded in your reply, and the reason I stopped submitting to CGC was because of how unprofessional Haspel was towards me when they damaged one of my submissions. He accused me of sending the book in that way. Like you, I had been consulted, by Haspel of all people, on underground comix on a number of occasions, and was happy to help. I was helpful until I had an issue, and then seen as a nobody. Funny how things work out some times, the permanent impressions left by people's actions, and how things eventually catch up to them.

Edited August 28, 2021 by comicwiz

[Transplant]

On 8/28/2021 at 4:01 PM, Bronty said:

I mean, you all ship cgc and cbcs and psa and wata and all of these grading companies your property on the same premise right?     That they are a professional outfit that you have trust in, that isn’t going to simply take or lose your property without making you whole somehow.

No.  I make a market decision to assume some risk in a couple of ways.  1st, my stuff is insured while in transit both ways with a 3rd party, CIA.  2nd, I've known too many examples of CGC declining to take any responsibility for damage that occurred at their facility.  For the most part, what I've seen includes an offer to press it for free and reslab, and/or grading fee credits.  

Would I entrust an Cap #1 to them to run around the country with on a promo tour, even now?  Not without something in writing providing for what happens if it was damaged or stolen.  I also wouldn't have let a brand new company like CBCS, even one shepherded by Borock who I think highly of, take some top census slab of mine and regrade it with no idea of what the market impact would be, without some assurance of being made whole.  Frankly, I'd probably want to get some compensation just for lending my book out so they could advertise with it.  

I'm glad you trusted VGA and WATA, but it isn't super relevant to the point I was making.  I might trust the MOMA a whole bunch.  But something is going to be agreed upon before I hypothetically loan them a Picasso or Rothko.