Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:32 AM, Tec-Tac-Toe said:

I'm in the same boat, if you will, not having won an auction in quite some time as all the comic books I have bid on in almost a year have sold for more, often much more, than I'm willing to pay.

What happens if the "investors" price all collectors out of the market? Guys with no interest in the books just throw them in the closet waiting for another "investor" to pay them for something tangible that they don't even really want?

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:55 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

What happens if the "investors" price all collectors out of the market? Guys with no interest in the books just throw them in the closet waiting for another "investor" to pay them for something tangible that they don't even really want?

I would think that investors know when to take the loss and move that money into something else. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:04 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I would think that investors know when to take the loss and move that money into something else. 

That's why I said "investors".

I don't think that they know WTF they're doing.

[Tec-Tac-Toe]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:55 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

What happens if the "investors" price all collectors out of the market? Guys with no interest in the books just throw them in the closet waiting for another "investor" to pay them for something tangible that they don't even really want?

In my view, as concerns only me as, clearly, each of us will have to determine our own spending limit for comic books, if I continue to be priced out of the market by, as you term, "investors", not to be dismissive, so be it. Granted, in my case, as concerns CGC graded comic books, I have many of the comic books that I want and, although stopping for a period around a decade ago, purchase new releases of titles I am interested in so that keeps me "in the game" as such.

[wombat]

On 9/1/2021 at 12:09 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

That's why I said "investors".

I don't think that they know WTF they're doing.

They will cut bait. The average Joe is much more likely to panic. 

[jjonahjameson11]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:35 PM, Buzzetta said:

 Somehow I am betting it is the same three. 

But this is what I ask the OA guys.  Is your collection 'worth' what it is because of normal value increases that occur over time and demand...

Or are you basing it on three rich guys trading inventory back and forth with no real money changing hands. 

 

 

I would respond with a yes and no.  I suspect those same three are still practicing shady business methods, however, I believe the cabal of manipulators has increased beyond those three guys.  Only now, its become far more blatant as more people are watching their actions.

[MasterChief]

I can't help but wonder what may have happened if an investigative journalist, or the mainstream media at large, had taken notice of the allegations and outright shenanigans that took place right after, and in the subsequent years following, the rollout of the comic-book certification age.

While the hobby did have a "news outlet" publish an article in the attempt to address collector concerns following the discovery of the manipulated books from the Nicolas Cage Collection, as highlighted earlier in the thread with the posting of the CBG article, nothing else of any significance materialized to shed light on illicit behavior or root out elements that were alleged to be corrupt within the hobby. Not one. And that included arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby. That being the Jason Ewart trimming fiasco.

While the Ewart scandal generated deep public outrage within the walls of this and other related forums, it received no interest as a newsworthy story by the hobby press, including CBG. And that was even after several well-meaning collectors lobbied the publisher of CBG to research and compile some type of report that would deliver consumer awareness to the public about the matter.         

As Joe mentioned earlier, much of the tomfoolery discovered in the earlier days of the certification age was laid bare by astute collectors and presented on comic forums such as these. Unfortunately, those revelations, of which many appeared to be connected in one degree or another to the apparent conflict-of-interest between Halperin, Heritage, and CGC, went nowhere other than their little corners of cyberspace.

Many of us were surprised by this, and continue to be surprised to this day. The lack of press interest was, on its own, noteworthy. Perhaps it was designed to be that way. Let comic geeks gnash their teeth on meaningless message boards far away from the public eye while the hobby is fleeced to no end. It would seem so, in my opinion. Because for 20 years the certification establishment and its many lickspittles in the hobby assured us that everything was fine and that there was no validity to any of the conspiracy theories..."Remember how it was before CGC?" They would drone on about. "We're building back trust within the hobby...we've standardized the science of grading and have created a buying and selling tool for the internet that keeps the crooks at bay." Meanwhile, they'd continue to snub recognized hobby restoration standards by turning a blind eye toward disassembly, erasure, cleaning, restoration removal, pressing, etc. in an effort to make possible the key component of the crack-out game (manipulation) to drive the top-line.

In reading the latest Seth Abramson story, I was reminded of another who used to post rather frequently in the early days about hobby ongoings. He presented some of the first rather shocking manipulation examples bearing certified universal grades while editorializing his message from a perspective that he knew exactly what was going on. That individual was Daniel Dupcak.

Now before I get flamed for being some kind of Dupcak apologist, I'm not. I was right there in the trenches with a lot of you battling his dubious behavior. But if we remove the emotion and put aside Dupcak's history and just read his comments on the issue, he does raise some very interesting points. Points that relate to the allegations being made today by Abramson and others. I personally believe Dupcak knew too much, someone with inside information, and was seen as a liability from the powers that be. So, he was silenced from the boards. He did have a way of striking a nerve and getting people riled up, that's for sure.        

Here's a screen capture of comments by Dupcak from 9 years ago, using one of his many aliases, about the auctioning of the Cage collection. It's from the long defunct Comics Corral message boards. While I have studied the liquidation of the Cage collection, I have concluded with a high degree of confidence that some of the things he is saying are commensurate with the findings. The remarks he makes echo the comments of today.
 

Edited September 1, 2021 by MasterChief

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 9/1/2021 at 3:20 AM, Djangology said:

 

Out of curiosity, what are the arguments for why Atari's console games should be the most desirable independent of your personal connection to them? After Atari crashed the U.S. game market in the early 80s, they never really came back in any meaningful way. In contrast, Nintendo significantly expanded the market in the mid-80s and has been relevant to every subsequent generation. On top of that, the popular 2600 games were mostly wildly inferior arcade ports.

It's not like Platinum Age comics or 19th century baseball cards are the most desirable in those respective hobbies, so just being earlier in the market isn't inherently enough.

Well, I'm not trying to make an argument at all.

I'm just saying that the console to which I have the most attachment is the Atari 2600, and it will always have a special place for me.  I would have thought its position as the first big console to sweep the public consciousness, and the (presumable) scarcity of high-grade examples of its cartridges, would make those items highly valued.  I'm well aware that Atari imploded and that Nintendo has remained relevant in a way that Atari has not.  But Atari will always be the first.

Having thought about this some more, I come back to the two-fold basis for the value of Super Mario Bros.  I'm sure it's partly about being the original Nintendo game, but it seems to me it's also definitely about the character of Mario and the enduring franchise of characters that sprung up around Mario.  In that way there's a strong parallel to comics, whose value is derived primarily from the popularity and longevity of the characters they contain, even more so than their publishers / creators.  There is no character associated with Atari, so that's a big disadvantage.  I would be excited to hold a high-grade example of Combat (01!) or Air-Sea Battle (02!) but there's nothing there to capture most people's imagination.

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:46 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I want to say it was called high score...

It's the best one currently on Netflix, I don't know of any other to compare it to, yet it went through older to current consoles. I want to say there was another as well but can't remember the name....

Thank you -- I am going to watch this!

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:25 AM, The Lions Den said:

Well, I've read the various articles and I understand the allegations. What I'd like to know is what people actually think is going to happen from all this..?  

Heritage and Wata both write HUGE thank you letters to Karl Jobst and Seth Abramson for all of the free publicity. 

The three highest sales from the most recent regular Heritage auction that ended on 8/31/2021:

 

Last copy of this Later Production variant was a 9.2 B+ that sold on Heritage on 7/20/2021 for $39,600.

The one below was a grade higher.

 

Last copy of this game was a 9.6 A+ that sold on Heritage on 7/11/2021 for $2,880

Only other sale was a 9.8 A copy that sold on Heritage on 9/13/2020 for $2,040

 

No exact comparisons for this one because there are so many releases/variants.  

The closest and most recent was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (hangtab, 3 code) in 8.0 that sold on 12-21-2020 for $384.

The one below was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (no rev-a, round soq) in a grade lower.

 

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/1/2021 at 3:04 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

Well, I'm not trying to make an argument at all.

I'm just saying that the console to which I have the most attachment is the Atari 2600, and it will always have a special place for me.  I would have thought its position as the first big console to sweep the public consciousness, and the (presumable) scarcity of high-grade examples of its cartridges, would make those items highly valued.  I'm well aware that Atari imploded and that Nintendo has remained relevant in a way that Atari has not.  But Atari will always be the first.

I started with an Atari 2600 as well.  But, for various reasons, the collector base just isn't as strong for those games.  

That, plus the fact there are unopened cases and cases of many of the Atari 2600 games still out there.....many of which have flooded the market.

(You'll have to click through a few times for a larger view)

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Domo Arigato

[WolverineX]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:39 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Heritage and Wata both write HUGE thank you letters to Karl Jobst and Seth Abramson for all of the free publicity. 

The three highest sales from the most recent regular Heritage auction that ended on 8/31/2021:

 

Last copy of this Later Production variant was a 9.2 B+ that sold on Heritage on 7/20/2021 for $39,600.

The one below was a grade higher.

 

Last copy of this game was a 9.6 A+ that sold on Heritage on 7/11/2021 for $2,880

Only other sale was a 9.8 A copy that sold on Heritage on 9/13/2020 for $2,040

 

No exact comparisons for this one because there are so many releases/variants.  

The closest and most recent was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (hangtab, 3 code) in 8.0 that sold on 12-21-2020 for $384.

The one below was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (no rev-a, round soq) in a grade lower.

 

The question is who bought those?

[Domo Arigato]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:56 PM, Wolverinex said:

The question is who bought those?

The Boogeyman........he's everywhere. 

 

[The Lions Den]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:39 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Heritage and Wata both write HUGE thank you letters to Karl Jobst and Seth Abramson for all of the free publicity. 

The three highest sales from the most recent regular Heritage auction that ended on 8/31/2021:

 

Last copy of this Later Production variant was a 9.2 B+ that sold on Heritage on 7/20/2021 for $39,600.

The one below was a grade higher.

 

Last copy of this game was a 9.6 A+ that sold on Heritage on 7/11/2021 for $2,880

Only other sale was a 9.8 A copy that sold on Heritage on 9/13/2020 for $2,040

 

No exact comparisons for this one because there are so many releases/variants.  

The closest and most recent was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (hangtab, 3 code) in 8.0 that sold on 12-21-2020 for $384.

The one below was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (no rev-a, round soq) in a grade lower.

 

[Motor City Rob]

On 9/1/2021 at 5:39 PM, Domo Arigato said:

Heritage and Wata both write HUGE thank you letters to Karl Jobst and Seth Abramson for all of the free publicity. 

The three highest sales from the most recent regular Heritage auction that ended on 8/31/2021:

 

Last copy of this Later Production variant was a 9.2 B+ that sold on Heritage on 7/20/2021 for $39,600.

The one below was a grade higher.

 

Last copy of this game was a 9.6 A+ that sold on Heritage on 7/11/2021 for $2,880

Only other sale was a 9.8 A copy that sold on Heritage on 9/13/2020 for $2,040

 

No exact comparisons for this one because there are so many releases/variants.  

The closest and most recent was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (hangtab, 3 code) in 8.0 that sold on 12-21-2020 for $384.

The one below was another CIB (opened box) mid-release (no rev-a, round soq) in a grade lower.

 

Well said. All of this is absolutely free publicity and will keep the market growing. Noone is going to step in and stop this. Only way to stop it is for people to stop bidding past what they can afford. Scam artists can't keep buying their own games forever (if that's truly what's happening).

[Domo Arigato]

Otis offers fractional ownership in collectibles (similar to Rally Rd) and they just received this offer on one of their games:

Halperin must be jet-setting all over the internet ! ! !

 

[Buzzetta]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:25 AM, The Lions Den said:

Well, I've read the various articles and I understand the allegations. What I'd like to know is what people actually think is going to happen from all this..?  

Great question. 

It attracts government attention eventually resulting in notice and regulation. 

When people were messing around with thousands...  

Now there are people messing around with millions... 

Someone, somewhere in the government is going to eventually take notice and say, 'what?'

[Beige]

wrong thread

Edited September 2, 2021 by Beige

[apollobuzz]

On 9/1/2021 at 3:20 AM, Djangology said:

 

Out of curiosity, what are the arguments for why Atari's console games should be the most desirable independent of your personal connection to them? After Atari crashed the U.S. game market in the early 80s, they never really came back in any meaningful way. In contrast, Nintendo significantly expanded the market in the mid-80s and has been relevant to every subsequent generation. On top of that, the popular 2600 games were mostly wildly inferior arcade ports.

It's not like Platinum Age comics or 19th century baseball cards are the most desirable in those respective hobbies, so just being earlier in the market isn't inherently enough.

WTTB!

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 9/1/2021 at 6:30 PM, Domo Arigato said:

I started with an Atari 2600 as well.  But, for various reasons, the collector base just isn't as strong for those games.  

That, plus the fact there are unopened cases and cases of many of the Atari 2600 games still out there.....many of which have flooded the market.

(You'll have to click through a few times for a larger view)

 

Thanks for this.  Dating myself some more, but I think of Ms. Pac Man as pretty late in the game ... the packaging design I remember most fondly was the original.  Here's an example that's being offered for $28K on eBay:

Are the Atari boxes with this design more scarce than the silver design that followed?

I'm going purely from childhood memories, but I would think of the original Space Invaders as the "biggest" Atari 2600 game of the era in terms of buzz.  Then I would probably go with a couple of the early Activision games -- I loved those, with Pitfall probably being the one I consider the "best" and most desirable as a collectible.  But of course I don't think for a second that what I like necessarily aligns with the market.  Your point about the supply side is very well taken.