Will the WATA/Heritage Scandal spill over into our beloved comic books ? 2 2

[Chicago Boy]

Things are looking worse and worse everyday according to the New York Times.  I have to assume that trading cards and comic books are next

[alexgross.com]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, Chicago Boy said:

Things are looking worse and worse everyday according to the New York Times.  I have to assume that trading cards and comic books are next

what does this mean? what is looking worse and worse?

the only nyt article i see about this is one from last month proclaiming the record sale of mario for 1.5 mil. 

or are you just talking about their overall gloom and doom? fear is the number one headline theme for all media these days, as it inspires more clicks.

Edited September 6, 2021 by alexgross.com

[Chicago Boy]

On 9/5/2021 at 9:48 PM, alexgross.com said:

what does this mean? what is looking worse and worse?

There are so many new articles on it. I don't want to misrepresent it.  Google WATA Scandal. Looks like the NYT is involved now. It doesn't look good for anyone associated with the grading and purchasing of the big ticket video items.  I'm worried that this would lead to losing trust with our 2 third party grading companies  from the community

Edited September 6, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[alexgross.com]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:50 PM, Chicago Boy said:

There are so many new articles on it. I don't want to misrepresent it.  Google WATA Scandal. Looks like the NYT is involved now.

i can find no times piece on this. i see many reddit and twitter threads and some video game media talking about jobst's video. but no real mainstream news source is talking about this as far as i can see via a google search. 

[lou_fine]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, Chicago Boy said:

Things are looking worse and worse everyday according to the New York Times.  I have to assume that trading cards and comic books are next

Are you referring to the fact that the NY Times might come back and correct the title of your thread here since you might just have it in reverse order here?  

Edited September 6, 2021 by lou_fine

[tth2]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:50 AM, Chicago Boy said:

On 9/6/2021 at 10:48 AM, alexgross.com said:

what does this mean? what is looking worse and worse?

There are so many new articles on it. I don't want to misrepresent it.  Google WATA Scandal. Looks like the NYT is involved now.

I just did a search on the New York Times and the most recent references I could find to "WATA" and "Heritage" were from Jan 27, 2020 and July 12, 2021, respectively.  None related to this alleged scandal.

Chicago Boy, please post a link to the articles in the NYT that you keep referring to.  

[Daveb25]

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/video-game-grading-house-wata-told
 

this is the closest I could find googling. Is this what you’re talking about? 

[Professor K]

If anything it will make people who pay big money for graded video games realize how ridiculous grading video games is. I highly doubt this will affect Comics, coins, or cards. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:24 PM, Professor K said:

If anything it will make people who pay big money for graded video games realize how ridiculous grading video games is. I highly doubt this will affect Comics, coins, or cards. 

Paying big money for anything will get a ridiculous label from those who don't connect with that particular hobby.  Grading as a process isn't the real problem.  Big money is a problem because it fuels greed and encourages fraud.  If grading and/or auctioning starts having an appearance of manipulation it increases risks for that particular hobby, whatever the hobby, along with the public scrutiny of it.  On a slow news day just about anything can become bigger news.

[lou_fine]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:24 PM, Professor K said:

If anything it will make people who pay big money for graded video games realize how ridiculous grading video games is. I highly doubt this will affect Comics, coins, or cards. 

Haven't actually read all of the posts in that other thread since it seems to be pretty much of a dumpster fire between the same 3 or 4 boardies there, with one of them apparently doing his best to get the thread mess down completely.  

I believe he's not referring to the fact that they are basically grading the quality of the box and the seal wrap only, with nothing to do with the actual contents inside when it comes to the grading of sealed video games.  Probably more to do with the billowing smoke that connected insiders with their vertically integrated fingers in the whole grading and auctioning of video games and artifically manipulating the prices upwards might just clue into the likelihood that this might also be taking place in the comics, coins, and trading cards collectibles field.  

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but this is probably not    when it comes to this issue here, and I highly doubt it will get picked up by the mainstream press here to any significant degree, if even at all.  

Edited September 7, 2021 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, Chicago Boy said:

Things are looking worse and worse everyday according to the New York Times.  I have to assume that trading cards and comic books are next

Like I said, absolutely nothing to worry about as this is old news for us old fogies as we are just simply seeing the usual rinse and repeat cycle here with the video games, as per this post from our very own Masterchief in the other thread in Comics General:    

 

On 9/1/2021 at 11:26 AM, MasterChief said:

I can't help but wonder what may have happened if an investigative journalist, or the mainstream media at large, had taken notice of the allegations and outright shenanigans that took place right after, and in the subsequent years following, the rollout of the comic-book certification age.

While the hobby did have a "news outlet" publish an article in the attempt to address collector concerns following the discovery of the manipulated books from the Nicolas Cage Collection, as highlighted earlier in the thread with the posting of the CBG article, nothing else of any significance materialized to shed light on illicit behavior or root out elements that were alleged to be corrupt within the hobby. Not one. And that included arguably the biggest scandal to hit the hobby. That being the Jason Ewart trimming fiasco.

While the Ewart scandal generated deep public outrage within the walls of this and other related forums, it received no interest as a newsworthy story by the hobby press, including CBG. And that was even after several well-meaning collectors lobbied the publisher of CBG to research and compile some type of report that would deliver consumer awareness to the public about the matter.         

As Joe mentioned earlier, much of the tomfoolery discovered in the earlier days of the certification age was laid bare by astute collectors and presented on comic forums such as these. Unfortunately, those revelations, of which many appeared to be connected in one degree or another to the apparent conflict-of-interest between Halperin, Heritage, and CGC, went nowhere other than their little corners of cyberspace.

Many of us were surprised by this, and continue to be surprised to this day. The lack of press interest was, on its own, noteworthy. Perhaps it was designed to be that way. Let comic geeks gnash their teeth on meaningless message boards far away from the public eye while the hobby is fleeced to no end. It would seem so, in my opinion. Because for 20 years the certification establishment and its many lickspittles in the hobby assured us that everything was fine and that there was no validity to any of the conspiracy theories..."Remember how it was before CGC?" They would drone on about. "We're building back trust within the hobby...we've standardized the science of grading and have created a buying and selling tool for the internet that keeps the crooks at bay." Meanwhile, they'd continue to snub recognized hobby restoration standards by turning a blind eye toward disassembly, erasure, cleaning, restoration removal, pressing, etc. in an effort to make possible the key component of the crack-out game (manipulation) to drive the top-line.

In reading the latest Seth Abramson story, I was reminded of another who used to post rather frequently in the early days about hobby ongoings. He presented some of the first rather shocking manipulation examples bearing certified universal grades while editorializing his message from a perspective that he knew exactly what was going on. That individual was Daniel Dupcak.

Now before I get flamed for being some kind of Dupcak apologist, I'm not. I was right there in the trenches with a lot of you battling his dubious behavior. But if we remove the emotion and put aside Dupcak's history and just read his comments on the issue, he does raise some very interesting points. Points that relate to the allegations being made today by Abramson and others. I personally believe Dupcak knew too much, someone with inside information, and was seen as a liability from the powers that be. So, he was silenced from the boards. He did have a way of striking a nerve and getting people riled up, that's for sure.        

Here's a screen capture of comments by Dupcak from 9 years ago, using one of his many aliases, about the auctioning of the Cage collection. It's from the long defunct Comics Corral message boards. While I have studied the liquidation of the Cage collection, I have concluded with a high degree of confidence that some of the things he is saying are commensurate with the findings. The remarks he makes echo the comments of today.
 

 

[Professor K]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:02 AM, lou_fine said:

Haven't actually read all of the posts in that other thread since it seems to be pretty much of a dumpster fire between the same 3 or 4 boardies there, with one of them apparently doing his best to get the thread mess down completely.  

I believe he's not referring to the fact that they are basically grading the quality of the box and the seal wrap only, with nothing to do with the actual contents inside when it comes to the grading of sealed video games.  Probably more to do with the billowing smoke that connected insiders with their vertically integrated fingers in the whole grading and auctioning of video games and artifically manipulating the prices upwards might just clue into the likelihood that this might also be taking place in the comics, coins, and trading cards collectibles field.  

Hate to be the bearer of bad news here, but this is probably not    when it comes to this issue here, and I highly doubt it will get picked up by the mainstream press here to any significant degree, if any at all.  

 That's Highly Significant . Oh I didn't see that other thread.  About graded video games I take it? Or the WATA scandal as its called. I admit I read a little about it and watched part of a yootoob vid of a man named Jobst ,but I'm not completely sure what really happened. I do know the basics. 

Not trying to put down any graded video game collecters out there other than to say with coins and comics and even cards and loose toys even , there are multiple aspects of the item to consider when grading. With a video game its a cardboard box. The difference between a 9.0 and 10.0 must be microscopic if it even exists. I'm not saying they arent worth collecting I just don't see the point of grading them and paying 200K for something you can find still in great shape for 100 bucks and is probably in the back of thousands of bedroom closets all over the world. I mean everyone from that generation had Mario Bros. for crying out loud.

We all know with comics there "appears" to be some shenanigans going on with grades in some instances that probably can't be chalked up to simple poor or inconsistent grading. But if it gets to a point where its a common thing  and its being manipulated by the grading companies and/or auction sites we the collectors will be all over it (way before some newspaper article) because of those many aspects going into proper comic grading......... its not just putting a label on a cardboard box( I know there is probably more to it than than but c'mon, its a cardboard box for crying out loud). When it comes to comics, coins and cards I hope it never gets to a point where grading has lost its credibility. Especially with comics because 95%+ are all graded by the same company, our wonderful and lovely CGC. I doubt it will because it would hurt the grading company and the auction house and in the long run it wouldn't be worth it just for a few big sales. Maybe I'm being naive about that.

Am I still on topic? Not sure 

On 9/7/2021 at 12:34 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Paying big money for anything will get a ridiculous label from those who don't connect with that particular hobby.  Grading as a process isn't the real problem.  Big money is a problem because it fuels greed and encourages fraud.  If grading and/or auctioning starts having an appearance of manipulation it increases risks for that particular hobby, whatever the hobby, along with the public scrutiny of it.  On a slow news day just about anything can become bigger news.

Agree. 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Professor K
updated after I educated myself a little more on the subject

[tth2]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:26 AM, Daveb25 said:

https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/video-game-grading-house-wata-told
 

this is the closest I could find googling. Is this what you’re talking about? 

If this is what Chicago Boy was referring to, then I have to question his reading comprehension or his motivations.  The reference to the NYT was to a NYT article about video game auctions from 2020.

[jimjum12]

One bit of clarification, I notice that many of these record breakers are not the exact same games we were playing in the 80's ... many are prototypes or low distribution promotional copies and such. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[comicwiz]

On 9/7/2021 at 10:48 AM, tth2 said:

If this is what Chicago Boy was referring to, then I have to question his reading comprehension or his motivations.  The reference to the NYT was to a NYT article about video game auctions from 2020.

That's seems like a possibility on the confusion. And the mix-up is likely in reference to Haspel recently being named in a substack for selling WATA graded games, even after Deniz Kahn was quoted in a NYT's article stating the following:

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/7/2021 at 11:10 AM, jimjum12 said:

One bit of clarification, I notice that many of these record breakers are not the exact same games we were playing in the 80's ... many are prototypes or low distribution promotional copies and such. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

This is true, but not the primary cause of concern among those who perceive problems.  Trying to look at this objectively, without bias or interest in how the game issue turns out, the broader picture comes into focus.  This is going to sound abstract, but some of you will get the context.  

Do any of you remember the oft shown scene from Michelangelo Antonioni's Blow-Up, the 1966 film about a fashion photographer having photographed evidence of what might've been a murder?  The context is the mystery around perception verses reality.  Anyway, one crucial scene involves the amateur sleuth who's helping the fashion photographer track down answers going into a club where the Yardbirds are performing (an actual substitution for The Who). Link below...

The moral to this story ...if there's one worthy of consideration... isn't about the guitar neck that gets thrown away afterwards or the value it had to a worshiping audience when tossed from on-high by one of the legendary gods of guitar, ...it's about the frenzy of a mob and how easily folks are motivated to act on impulse irrespective of common sense.  

THAT is where the big bucks come in and the potential for manipulation, risk and loss. Enjoy the video link.   

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Cat-Man_America

[comicwiz]

 

On 9/7/2021 at 2:03 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Trying to look at this objectively, without bias or interest in how the game issue turns out, the broader picture comes into focus.

As well intentioned as your statement, and example might seem, there are those who see any parallel or furthering of this discussion as an agenda driven intent to unfairly drag down video game grading, particularly WATA.

Even when you can draw a parallel from one persons views/opinions, over two different timeline points and use historical fact and accuracy to base your line of questioning, it's flawed according to those who don't see anything wrong.

As another, more hobby-focused, and direct example of someone involved in comics - this quote was taken from a 2011 announcement direct from CGC's website:

“After a decade of grading books, I need a short break to take care of some personal issues and to liquidate some of my inventory that I’ve had for years as a result of not being able to actively buy and sell as per CGC’s internal code of ethics,” said Haspel.

How does someone who was groomed under an internal code of ethics policy, specifically one instituted to leave no doubt or perception of impropriety, find themselves embroiled in allegations they sold graded games while being involved with WATA?

On 9/7/2021 at 2:03 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

THAT is where the big bucks come in and the potential for manipulation

Looking like you might be onto something

Edited September 7, 2021 by comicwiz

[fishbone]

On 9/6/2021 at 11:24 PM, Professor K said:

If anything it will make people who pay big money for graded video games realize how ridiculous grading video games is. I highly doubt this will affect Comics, coins, or cards. 

this ^^^^^    what a joke this is, not even in the same neighbourhood as cards and comics

[zosocane]

On 9/7/2021 at 2:03 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Enjoy the video link.   

 

 

1:20 is Jimmy Page; Jeff Beck comes in at the 1:34 mark.