Centering Subgrade - Done by AI or Human Graders? 1 1

[PokemanDude90]

Below are two cards from the same submission that were graded on 10/01. Can anyone explain how this Vaporeon is a full 1 point higher (9.5) in Centering than the Ditto (Charmander) which got a 8.5 for Centering? I'd argue the Ditto (Charmander) is better Centered both on the front and the back. Am I missing something? 

Well, this came as a shock to me, but per the CGC Grading scale there are no quantifiable boundaries/limits for Centering like PSA or SGC has on their grading scales (i.e. for a 10 Centering the edges must be at least 55/45). https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/?scale=trading-cards

So this begs the question(s).... Are graders subjectively eyeballing Centering right now? Is AI involved at all? Are there plans to incorporate exact centering requirements in the grading scale similar to PSA/SGC? 

Regardless, I don't think it's unreasonable for us Customers to want recognizable consistency in this subgrade, whether human or AI. 

Curious to hear people's thoughts on this and again, if I'm just completely blind feel free to call me out. I have other examples as well but figured this one gets the point across. 

 

 

[Oreos]

Imo the Vaporeon should have the 8.5/9, not the Ditto. Centering on the Ditto looks damn near perfect.

I also had an extremely similar issue with my submission.

How does one of these get an O/C and the other an 8? Its the same damn cut...

But I digress. I'd love to know the answer to your question. Human or AI? Maybe we're missing something?

[PokemanDude90]

On 10/4/2021 at 5:57 AM, Oreos said:

Imo the Vaporeon should have the 8.5/9, not the Ditto. Centering on the Ditto looks damn near perfect.

I also had an extremely similar issue with my submission.

How does one of these get an O/C and the other an 8? Its the same damn cut...

But I digress. I'd love to know the answer to your question. Human or AI? Maybe we're missing something?

 

 

 

Yeah this isn't a fun topic to discuss for anyone and there are too many examples out there not to bring to attention. This Bulbasaur is not even close to perfect Centering. But I'm confident CGC will address and fix in time; they're too competent of a business not to.

Assuming they are having graders eyeball Centering, then implementing AI could be a continuous improvement initiative to look into down the line. 

The card grading space is not getting less exact and precise, it's getting more -- and Centering is one of those things that can be exact, so I'm confident CGC will make the correct moves in time. 

 

[iSniipe]

so can we actually get some sort of explanation from someone at CGC for this? I’ve gotten these back in the same submission about a week or so ago. The frustration with this is beyond belief. How the HELL are these both 8.5 centering? Not only does this bring the value of the cards down, but it’s honestly disheartening. 
 

and this is just the centering… we won’t even talk about how terrible the backside edges of the alakazam look..

[HomeGrownPoke1]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:57 AM, iSniipe said:

so can we actually get some sort of explanation from someone at CGC for this? I’ve gotten these back in the same submission about a week or so ago. The frustration with this is beyond belief. How the HELL are these both 8.5 centering? Not only does this bring the value of the cards down, but it’s honestly disheartening. 
 

and this is just the centering… we won’t even talk about how terrible the backside edges of the alakazam look..

Let's see the back sides

[IrishPrince]

On 10/15/2021 at 8:57 AM, iSniipe said:

so can we actually get some sort of explanation from someone at CGC for this? I’ve gotten these back in the same submission about a week or so ago. The frustration with this is beyond belief. How the HELL are these both 8.5 centering? Not only does this bring the value of the cards down, but it’s honestly disheartening. 
 

and this is just the centering… we won’t even talk about how terrible the backside edges of the alakazam look..

The Alakazam looks to have a top-bottom centering issues. 8.5 for that level of top-bottom seems about right, IMO. 

[iSniipe]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:06 AM, IrishPrince said:

The Alakazam looks to have a top-bottom centering issues. 8.5 for that level of top-bottom seems about right, IMO. 

Yes, you’re absolutely right. Well deserved 8.5. My confusion lies within the 8.5 centering with Pikachu. We have an alakazam with a blatantly obvious centering issue. However, what makes the Pikachu’s centering an 8.5?

[iSniipe]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:03 AM, HomeGrownPoke1 said:

Let's see the back sides

Unless Stevie wonder and I have something in common.. I can’t see how they can possible justify that these two cards are visually (and physically) equal.

[PokemanDude90]

On 10/15/2021 at 6:59 AM, iSniipe said:

Unless Stevie wonder and I have something in common.. I can’t see how they can possible justify that these two cards are visually (and physically) equal.

 

I see you are in the 'denial' stage of grief, and as someone who is in 'acceptance' let me just tell you like it is. Centering is subjective, and there are no actual parameters listed in CGC's grading scale. Forget what you know about 60/40 etc. because it does not apply. I've cracked and resubbed cards and have lost an entire point on Centering. Your Centering is what your grader thinks it is that day, accept that for what it is. 

While this may frustrate you, this is acceptable for most of the community and for CGC as well, so rather than yell at a wall and fight the group-think, I'd work within the system and crack and resub with the hopes of a different grader eyeballing it more favorably. 

 

[IrishPrince]

On 10/15/2021 at 9:56 AM, iSniipe said:

Yes, you’re absolutely right. Well deserved 8.5. My confusion lies within the 8.5 centering with Pikachu. We have an alakazam with a blatantly obvious centering issue. However, what makes the Pikachu’s centering an 8.5?

Yeah, Pikachu's centering is better -- should be graded at least a 9 for centering. 

[iSniipe]

On 10/15/2021 at 3:06 PM, PokemanDude90 said:

 

I see you are in the 'denial' stage of grief, and as someone who is in 'acceptance' let me just tell you like it is. Centering is subjective, and there are no actual parameters listed in CGC's grading scale. Forget what you know about 60/40 etc. because it does not apply. I've cracked and resubbed cards and have lost an entire point on Centering. Your Centering is what your grader thinks it is that day, accept that for what it is. 

While this may frustrate you, this is acceptable for most of the community and for CGC as well, so rather than yell at a wall and fight the group-think, I'd work within the system and crack and resub with the hopes of a different grader eyeballing it more favorably. 

 

Kubler-Ross should have added ‘confusion’ as a 6th stage 🤷🏽‍♀️. That’s pretty much where I’m at. I’ve heard that CGC also uses technology to assist with their grading. If computers don’t view cards subjectively, which part of the grading process is technology being used..? General curiosity here as cracking and resubbing lower value cards at a more expensive price isn’t feasible. 

[EpicPulls]

I think centering might be the least consistent sub grade which is unfortunate because it seems like it should be the most consistent and straight forward

.

 

[Joshua Park]

I have the same issue, centering isn't perfect on this card but I thought it was at least a 9.

 

[EpicPulls]

On 11/9/2021 at 4:19 PM, Joshua Park said:

I have the same issue, centering isn't perfect on this card but I thought it was at least a 9.

 

They need to get a parameter set for centering no doubt. Considering a completely miscut card that qualifies for O/C got an 8 and im not sure how they can justify 8.5's on cards that are pretty decent. I might be biased on my zard but it looks pretty damn good on the front and has a heavy top on the back. Just don't make sense that a complete miscut is an 8 and 1 border off on the back is 8.5

[Tou Thor]

So has anyone gotten an answer to the centering inconsistencies? Human or ai? I'm a huge supporter of cgc, but the centering truely is quite inconsistent. I have my own subs where that subgrade just makes no sense compared to others.

[PokemanDude90]

On 11/23/2021 at 5:58 PM, Tou Thor said:

So has anyone gotten an answer to the centering inconsistencies? Human or ai? I'm a huge supporter of cgc, but the centering truely is quite inconsistent. I have my own subs where that subgrade just makes no sense compared to others.

 

I don’t think so, and we probably won’t get one either — the plausible deniability is baked right into the grading scale by them not disclosing any hard cutoffs/parameters for centering. 

Couple this with the general sentiment that “CGC grades harshly” and it’s like talking to NPC’s when trying to discuss this stuff with most of the masses. 

Lately for me it’s been basically every subgrade, not just centering, that has been wildly inconsistent — to the point where I’m cracking so many of my own slabs to either resubmit to CGC or a competitor, and my success rate in getting higher grades is high. When I preview my grades and see nothing but 8.5’s I know I’ve got to get my slab cracking scissors ready. 

 

 

[alohaboyz]

8.5 centering.  Awesome, consistency. 

Kadabra might fall of the card soon.

Edited December 15, 2021 by alohaboyz

[alohaboyz]

CGC strict grading ?  This card really ruins all CGC 9's 

 All companies have inconsistencies.