Heritage Marvel Comics 1 CGC 9.0 161K???

[rjpb]

Comicwiz

As someone who has more interest in Undergrounds than Superman, I have to say the comparison Zap #1 to Superman #1 is an apples to oranges scenario if there ever was one. Undergrounds don't even get respect from Overstreet and fly under the radar of most big money collector/investors, who as a group are far more interested in ( and willing to lay out the cash for) Superhero comics than comics in general, let alone undergrounds. Also comparing print runs is only marginally helpful as it is likely that a far smaller fraction of any 1939 comic print run has survived than that of 1968 undergrounds.

 

What I do find strange is that serious underground collectors seem to have far more interested in figuring out the order of printings of "key" books and assessing there relative values, than do the buyers and sellers of "key" GA books like Marvel #1 and Superman #1. I find it amazing that the collecting community has known for decades that October Marvel #1s are far scarcer than November copies, yet there is still lack of agreement as to generally how much more they might be worth, or even if they should be worth more at all.

[Rip]

Wow that's a sweet looking book.

[skybolt]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

[esquirecomics]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

[COI]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

[Aman619]

it IS kinda baffling aint it? I laughed when CGC started. Then I got my feet wet. Then I trusted and went shopping. Lately Im concerned. And I hope I dont end up crying.

[october]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.

[esquirecomics]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

Because it still far better and safer than purchasing the book raw, sight unseen. Worst case scenario, which I don't think it is, it is absolutely no different. I don't pay multiples for CGC books simply b/c they are CGC'd. And I view CGC's grading as subjective as everyone else's, though hopefully somewhat more consistent overall.

 

So, what exactly is the problem in still purchasing CGC books? What is the difference between doing so or instead purchasing from Metro, or Harley Yee, or Mile High, etc., and relying on their opinons of grading or restoration?

 

I, for one, am buying the book, not the CGC slab. It just so happens many of the books are in CGC slabs. Beyond that, I fail to see what should create a baffling situation, except of course I agree with you with respect to those who buy the CGC slab rather than the book.

[COI]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

 

It's scary, considering that there are many people whose entire net worth after a lifetime of 9 to 5 will not even come close to how much people pay for these books, which are being bought based on a "guarantee" issued by an extremely flawed grading system. Glad it's not my money.

[COI]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

Because it still far better and safer than purchasing the book raw, sight unseen. Worst case scenario, which I don't think it is, it is absolutely no different. I don't pay multiples for CGC books simply b/c they are CGC'd. And I view CGC's grading as subjective as everyone else's, though hopefully somewhat more consistent overall.

 

So, what exactly is the problem in still purchasing CGC books? What is the difference between doing so or instead purchasing from Metro, or Harley Yee, or Mile High, etc., and relying on their opinons of grading or restoration?

 

I, for one, am buying the book, not the CGC slab. It just so happens many of the books are in CGC slabs. Beyond that, I fail to see what should create a baffling situation, except of course I agree with you with respect to those who buy the CGC slab rather than the book.

 

Basically, you're saying that CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, so there's no problem with buying CGC graded books? You fail to see what's baffling about this? I fail to see how you sleep at night. I guess I'm never going to be a BSD in the comic world then, because the only things I have spent 6 figures on are the pieces of real estate I own. Regardless of my financial situation, I just couldn't justify spending that kind of cash on a comic, because I can't see any avenue that's safe enough for me to do so. If you feel that this market isn't flawed enough to stop you from spending the kind of money you do, then all the more power to you, and good luck! It isn't my money.

[esquirecomics]

It's scary, considering that there are many people whose entire net worth after a lifetime of 9 to 5 will not even come close to how much people pay for these books, which are being bought based on a "guarantee" issued by an extremely flawed grading system. Glad it's not my money.

 

Hold that general thought. Keep an eye out in this General Section for my new thread on this topic sometime today.

[COI]

It's scary, considering that there are many people whose entire net worth after a lifetime of 9 to 5 will not even come close to how much people pay for these books, which are being bought based on a "guarantee" issued by an extremely flawed grading system. Glad it's not my money.

 

Hold that general thought. Keep an eye out in this General Section for my new thread on this topic sometime today.

 

[october]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

In for a penny, in for a pound.

 

 

It's scary, considering that there are many people whose entire net worth after a lifetime of 9 to 5 will not even come close to how much people pay for these books, which are being bought based on a "guarantee" issued by an extremely flawed grading system. Glad it's not my money.

 

You are preaching the choir here. I am just a fan, the whole "invest while collecting" approach is too dicey for me. I would consider myself one of the smaller fish on the boards, but looking back, I bought and sold $1500-2000 worth of stuff last month. Granted, that's not exactly typical for me, but for that amount of money I could easily have bought 4 or 5 of Ewert's offerings....but why would I? So I can pay 10x the raw price for a high end copy that may or may not look the same as another with a lesser grade? So I can get a book that has been worked on? So I can get a comic that has been resubbed to sell for a higher amount? No thanks.

 

Then again, never underestimate the power of denial.

[Aman619]

denial is just a river in Africa my friend.

[heartened]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

Because it still far better and safer than purchasing the book raw, sight unseen. Worst case scenario, which I don't think it is, it is absolutely no different. I don't pay multiples for CGC books simply b/c they are CGC'd. And I view CGC's grading as subjective as everyone else's, though hopefully somewhat more consistent overall.

 

So, what exactly is the problem in still purchasing CGC books? What is the difference between doing so or instead purchasing from Metro, or Harley Yee, or Mile High, etc., and relying on their opinons of grading or restoration?

 

I, for one, am buying the book, not the CGC slab. It just so happens many of the books are in CGC slabs. Beyond that, I fail to see what should create a baffling situation, except of course I agree with you with respect to those who buy the CGC slab rather than the book.

 

Hi Mark,

 

I don't know if anyone who buys CGC books can honestly say they are buying the book and not the slab. In almost all cases a slabbed copy will be more expensive than a raw copy of the same grade. That's because you're paying for the extra faith, guarantee and consensus of a CGC grade that has, up to this point, resulted in a much more liquid commodity. All the "no returns on CGC books" signs on ebay or on dealer's sites speak to this enhanced liquidity, that we as collectors and part-time dealers have bought into.

 

Thus, if you buy the slabbed copy, then you're buying (in part) the slab and what that slab is supposed to mean. Therefore, unless you're buying only raw copies I don't think you can truly say you're buying the book for the book itself and not for the enhanced value that a slab adds. And, if you are really buying the book and not the slab, then you should have no problem with breaking all your books out of their respective slabs when you get them, to confirm or refute the given grade. Do you break out all your books? Also, when you buy a book slabbed, you're not able to inspect it yourself. You can't fold back the cover to look for the effects of color touch on the inside spine, you can't smell the pages, and you can't look at the 90% of the book that happens to be between the covers. So, if you're buying a CGC book for the book and not the slab, then I'd say you're buying only 10% of the book (and crossing your fingers that the other 90% is perfect).

 

I don't usually post on comic book related issues, being mainly a comic art collector these days, but the rise and fall of CGC is an interesting thing to see from the sidelines. CGC will not fall completely, but the honeymoon, as they say, is over. I think we will start to see the gap between raw and slabbed books start to narrow again.

[nearmint]

I think we will start to see the gap between raw and slabbed books start to narrow again.

 

[esquirecomics]

I wish CGC would give us a hint as to why a slightly color-touched GA book sometimes garners a universal vs. restored label? For instance, I recently got back a Zago #2 (9.2) copy with very minor color touch on front cover as a PLOD. I agree with this designation, but how and why aren't other GA books treated the same way? Plus, when CGC switches to the all new blue labels, how will they differentiate between the two books. Will my book come back with a "1" restored designation, while the other GA book with slightly less color touch still not be designated as restored (but in a blue label)? I'm just looking for a reasonable explanation on this issue.

 

Keep looking. We've asked multiple times for a better understanding of CGCs grading standards and, in particular, where the line is with respect to when a book gets a PLOD and when it will not. To date we've only received bits and pieces of CGC's policies, far short of any explanation.

 

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

 

Because it still far better and safer than purchasing the book raw, sight unseen. Worst case scenario, which I don't think it is, it is absolutely no different. I don't pay multiples for CGC books simply b/c they are CGC'd. And I view CGC's grading as subjective as everyone else's, though hopefully somewhat more consistent overall.

 

So, what exactly is the problem in still purchasing CGC books? What is the difference between doing so or instead purchasing from Metro, or Harley Yee, or Mile High, etc., and relying on their opinons of grading or restoration?

 

I, for one, am buying the book, not the CGC slab. It just so happens many of the books are in CGC slabs. Beyond that, I fail to see what should create a baffling situation, except of course I agree with you with respect to those who buy the CGC slab rather than the book.

 

Basically, you're saying that CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, so there's no problem with buying CGC graded books? You fail to see what's baffling about this? I fail to see how you sleep at night. I guess I'm never going to be a BSD in the comic world then, because the only things I have spent 6 figures on are the pieces of real estate I own. Regardless of my financial situation, I just couldn't justify spending that kind of cash on a comic, because I can't see any avenue that's safe enough for me to do so. If you feel that this market isn't flawed enough to stop you from spending the kind of money you do, then all the more power to you, and good luck! It isn't my money.

 

Either you are missing my point or somehow my prose was not clear enough, so let me restate my thoughts.

 

I would not hesitate to purchase a raw book if I could personally examine it. However, given the types, or level, of books I purchase I do not typically have that luxury.

 

I think buying a CGC book is far less riskier than purchasing a raw book sight unseen for a variety of reasons that I presume are so obvious that I need not state them. Buying books off of e-bay or even from some dealers based on a description alone (which we did all the time pre-Internet) or even an image is comparable to a roll of the dice most of the time. I presume this is so self-evident I need not elaborate for this crowd.

 

While I have my issues with CGC's grading at times, it is usually (or at least far more often than not) within a grade (or at worst two) of what most of us would say the book should be.

 

While I have my issues with CGC's restoration detection, it is far, far better than mine and typically better than most comic book dealers.

 

So, given that I do not buy the slab and only buy the book (meaning I need to generally agree with the stated grade), do not pay multiples simply b/c of a CGC'd book and in light of the benefits that CGC graded books do provide (particularly when you cannot personally examine the book), I do respectively remain baffled by your stated baffledness.

[drbanner]

Yep, the only thing safer than buying slabbed books, is not buying books at all...

[esquirecomics]

I don't know if anyone who buys CGC books can honestly say they are buying the book and not the slab. In almost all cases a slabbed copy will be more expensive than a raw copy of the same grade. That's because you're paying for the extra faith, guarantee and consensus of a CGC grade that has, up to this point, resulted in a much more liquid commodity. All the "no returns on CGC books" signs on ebay or on dealer's sites speak to this enhanced liquidity, that we as collectors and part-time dealers have bought into.

 

Thus, if you buy the slabbed copy, then you're buying (in part) the slab and what that slab is supposed to mean. Therefore, unless you're buying only raw copies I don't think you can truly say you're buying the book for the book itself and not for the enhanced value that a slab adds. And, if you are really buying the book and not the slab, then you should have no problem with breaking all your books out of their respective slabs when you get them, to confirm or refute the given grade. Do you break out all your books? Also, when you buy a book slabbed, you're not able to inspect it yourself. You can't fold back the cover to look for the effects of color touch on the inside spine, you can't smell the pages, and you can't look at the 90% of the book that happens to be between the covers. So, if you're buying a CGC book for the book and not the slab, then I'd say you're buying only 10% of the book (and crossing your fingers that the other 90% is perfect).

 

I don't usually post on comic book related issues, being mainly a comic art collector these days, but the rise and fall of CGC is an interesting thing to see from the sidelines. CGC will not fall completely, but the honeymoon, as they say, is over. I think we will start to see the gap between raw and slabbed books start to narrow again.

 

Hari, I can and will only speak for myself on this issue. When I first started buying CGC books I candidly admit I purchased the label as much, if not more, than the book itself. I was just coming back to the hobby after an absence of several years and the CGC experience was completely new to me. I do not any longer buy the slab vs the book nor have I for some time in large part due to what I have learned from the boards and my own experiences over the last 2 years.

 

Generally I suppose I might agree that a slabbed book goes for more than an unslabbed copy of the same book, but I see that clearly changing, particularly as buyers become more educated. In fact, for many of the books I routinely purchase, such as More Fun Comics, I actually often see the opposite.

 

I do trust CGC for a variety of its services, though I find it quite strange that the company does not seem willing to trust its own experts and actually provide a guarantee for its work (more on this to follow later). As I've said elsewhere, and often, I have ALWAYS, accepted returns on any CGC books I sell particularly because I do not guarantee their work. I have never bought into, nor understood, the opposite mentality.

 

I certainly trust CGC to at least be able to tell me whether there is a defect inside the book. I have never once heard or read on these boards that CGC has missed problems from within the book itself, i.e., a tear, coupon missing, etc. And though this is certainly a possibility the odds of this occurring, I would submit, are very, very low and I am definitely willing to assume that risk.

 

I do not break out my books from their slabs for two specific reasons. First, notwithstanding SCS, the holder provides greater protection for the books than I could otherwise provide through other means short of never handling them. Second, I personally prefer, as a seller, to simply offer a book with CGC's grade and allow my customers to assess the accuracy or lack thereof. Because comics are just a fun side business for me I do not have the time to write up detailed descriptions of each and every book, which is the only way I would ever sell raw books (as is evident from the raw books on my website).

 

I do, most certainly, miss the smell of GA books which is eliminated, or at least blocked, by the slabbing.

[krazykat-migration]

Yep, the only thing safer than buying slabbed books, is not buying books at all...

 

HOLY MOSES MOTHER OF MERCY....

 

Is 'Everybody' finally coming around to my reasoning ???

 

In les than one year my 'prophecies' have become realized.

 

Eeery huh ?

 

KK