Heritage Marvel Comics 1 CGC 9.0 161K???

[Alex DeLarge-migration]

At the end of the day it's all down to personal preference, and if some people prefer the actual Comic Books to the actual OA, fair enough I say.

 

Exactly right. I just can't for the life of me get excited about OA. I've tried, but I just have no passion for it.

 

One of the reasons I love Golden Age is knowing that some kid went to a store or newsstand and paid a dime to be taken away on whatever wild adventures were contained within the comic's pages. Somehow that copy survived all these years, and now I get to own it for a while before I pass it off to someone else.

 

I know others have a great passion for OA, but KK's insistence that one is better than the other and we should all sell our comics and join his hobby is ridiculous, and increasingly annoying.

 

Now I'm going to go eat a really big burger.

 

Enjoy your burger mate, and just as an addendum about KK...

 

I've read a lot of his posts, and to be frank I find him quite witty and on the level, deep down if not always on the surface.

I think that because he feels he is not liked he tries to cause controversy and wind people up....and some people time & time again take the bait.

Basically I feel, the guy knows his stuff, that's good enough for me although I don't always agree the way he goes about it.

I think it hurts him because he wants to be accepted...

 

Personally I don't care what people think about me, I try and contribute, and if people don't like what I say or don't like the fact I'm a newcomer...tough titty...

 

but I think this guy really does want to be accepted, so I think he should be cut a little slack PROVIDING, he tries to be a little more mature in his outlook.

 

Just my 50cents worth...

[jkrk]

Really, my point was that if you're gonna do it (spend $$$$+ on comic books), these days, slabbed is the only way to go. If you have no faith in buying a slabbed book due to grading discrepancy or due to possible undisclosed/undiscovered restoration, then you should have even less faith in buying a raw

 

I am in full agreement with your statement. I have never considered buying raw books. I still don't. I am simply saying that buying from CGC might be buying "relative safety" while it is my opinion that the books have been priced for absolute safety. My current thinking is that I am willing to forgo any potential rewards to avoid possibly becomming "the mark". There is no reward without risk. The question for me, is whether I am receiving proper odds? Perhaps your statement was not meant in the manner I took it but the statement sent me on this thought process.

[tth2]

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

*Sigh.*

 

Okay, Andrew, we get it. We're insufficiently_thoughtful_persons for indulging ourselves in this hobby. I've worked my butt off my whole life, have reached a comfortable financial status and can indulge myself in this hobby, but now I should desist from one of the things that gives me a lot of pleasure because you see fit to pass judgment on the wisdom of my spending habits.

[tth2]

Basically, you're saying that CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, so there's no problem with buying CGC graded books? You fail to see what's baffling about this? I fail to see how you sleep at night.

Yes, CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, particularly via mail order or over the internet. I've done both. I prefer buying the CGC books. So there's nothing particularly baffling about it in my mind. Are YOU truly saying that CGC is worse than buying raw from dealers?

 

I guess I'm never going to be a BSD in the comic world then, because the only things I have spent 6 figures on are the pieces of real estate I own. Regardless of my financial situation, I just couldn't justify spending that kind of cash on a comic, because I can't see any avenue that's safe enough for me to do so. If you feel that this market isn't flawed enough to stop you from spending the kind of money you do, then all the more power to you, and good luck! It isn't my money.

Let's make a deal, Andrew. You don't force your opinions on financial prudence down my throat, and I'll agree to do the same.

[tth2]

While I have my issues with CGC's grading at times, it is usually (or at least far more often than not) within a grade (or at worst two) of what most of us would say the book should be.

 

While I have my issues with CGC's restoration detection, it is far, far better than mine and typically better than most comic book dealers.

[tth2]

Buying from CGC is just the same as buying raw from a dealer, except that CGC is supposed to be 1) impartial and 2) better than the dealer at grading.

 

That being said, your argument has nothing to do with buying CGC slabs or not buying CGC slabs. Your argument has to do with spending six figures on a book. If you don't want to spend money on books don't, but don't preach to people who can afford it. Do I want to drop that kind of money on a single book? No. But esquire, and filter, and some others on this board do and can. I can't speak for filter, but I'm pretty sure esquire can afford it.

Thanks Dan. Very well put.

[tth2]

as an addendum about KK...

 

I've read a lot of his posts, and to be frank I find him quite witty and on the level, deep down if not always on the surface.

I think that because he feels he is not liked he tries to cause controversy and wind people up....and some people time & time again take the bait.

Basically I feel, the guy knows his stuff, that's good enough for me although I don't always agree the way he goes about it.

I think it hurts him because he wants to be accepted...

 

Personally I don't care what people think about me, I try and contribute, and if people don't like what I say or don't like the fact I'm a newcomer...tough titty...

 

but I think this guy really does want to be accepted, so I think he should be cut a little slack PROVIDING, he tries to be a little more mature in his outlook.

 

Just my 50cents worth...

Holy Sibyl, Batman! Do we have any psychologists on the boards, because this is just classic.

[rjpb]

It seems to me it wouldn't be that hard to forge OA. Sure many pieces have enough provenance that there is little or no doubt at all as to their authenticity, but the big money involved in SA and GA pieces makes it inevitable that there will be fakes. There is forged artwork more difficult to fake than original comic art, that is inspected more thoroughly, that still manages to get past experts employed by museums and auction houses. So if you think there isn't any fake OA out there you're kidding yourself.

[action1kid]

There is indeed fake original art out there.Not as prevelent as undetected restoration,but its out there.

[adamstrange]

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

*Sigh.*

 

Okay, Andrew, we get it. We're insufficiently_thoughtful_persons for indulging ourselves in this hobby. I've worked my butt off my whole life, have reached a comfortable financial status and can indulge myself in this hobby, but now I should desist from one of the things that gives me a lot of pleasure because you see fit to pass judgment on the wisdom of my spending habits.

 

I'm baffled by people that buy large plots of dirt, or electronic devices to fill every minute of every hour with sound, or cars with race engines that will be used for city commutes, or sailboats (get a frickken motor for heaven's sake!). In terms of history, the West is absurdly wealthy such that only a fraction of our income is spent on necessities. Comics make no more and no less sense than much of what we can spend our money on.

[Forbush-Man]

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

*Sigh.*

 

Okay, Andrew, we get it. We're insufficiently_thoughtful_persons for indulging ourselves in this hobby. I've worked my butt off my whole life, have reached a comfortable financial status and can indulge myself in this hobby, but now I should desist from one of the things that gives me a lot of pleasure because you see fit to pass judgment on the wisdom of my spending habits.

 

I'm baffled by people that buy large plots of dirt, or electronic devices to fill every minute of every hour with sound, or cars with race engines that will be used for city commutes, or sailboats (get a frickken motor for heaven's sake!). In terms of history, the West is absurdly wealthy such that only a fraction of our income is spent on necessities. Comics make no more and no less sense than much of what we can spend our money on.

 

Excellent post, Adamstrange!

 

Now: GO TO YOUR ROOM!

 

 

 

 

 

[COI]

Yet, many of you are still just as willing to throw massive amounts of cash at these books. That's what continues to baffle me.

*Sigh.*

 

Okay, Andrew, we get it. We're insufficiently_thoughtful_persons for indulging ourselves in this hobby. I've worked my butt off my whole life, have reached a comfortable financial status and can indulge myself in this hobby, but now I should desist from one of the things that gives me a lot of pleasure because you see fit to pass judgment on the wisdom of my spending habits.

 

Great, I'm glad we're clear.

 

Oh, you were being sarcastic.

 

*Sigh*

 

Ok Tim, I get it. Listen, I think you're a good guy, and I enjoy talking to you, but why is it that you get rattled by these posts? If you're comfortable with your actions, who cares what I say? And why do you take these posts as a direct attack on you and your personal collecting habits?

 

I find it funny that during the entire history of these boards, anytime anyone has a more bearish outlook on things, he gets slammed for being opinionated, or for "preaching". Gene (De-Lekkerste) for example, is one of the more intelligent posts on here, has a wealth of knowledge on a variety of topics, and used to be one of the best contributors on this site. He's hardly ever here now because he's been bashed so many times for his views. Why is it so wrong to have a bearish opinion around here? Are we raining on the parade of those of you who like to "geek out" over pretty books? Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see? Or maybe it's just that you percieve our posts to be a negative force around here? Either way, it's hitting a nerve for one reason or another.

 

Personally, I thrive on debating. I love to debate, if nothing else, because I learn from it. And the more heated it is, the more I enjoy it, as long as everyone remains civil. If you're taking my opinion as an attack, that's your own insecurity with the issue at hand. Have I ever personally said to you "Tim, you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person to spend the kind of money you do on books"? No, because for all I know you're a billionaire and 6 figures is chump change for you. If that's the case, then that's great, and I encourage you to bid away if it makes you happy. However, constantly sporting a bullish attitude for the market, without a contrarion view, may give less informed people the wrong impression about the market. I

 

just ran into someone at a LCS who was buying new books off of the stands, looking for the nicest copies to send off to PGX. He was buying multiple copies of some random book(all-star Batman and Robin #2, or something like that) and was excited to get them graded. According to him, he does this with at least 50 books a month. And he's not doing it for resale on Ebay, but is holding them for "the future". So, what if I told him that what he was doing was a fool's errand? How would he react? Not well, I can tell you that. So what did I do? I told him to come here and read, and that if he did, he'd get a whole new perspective on the hobby.

 

My point is, IMO it's good to have opposing viewpoints, and it's good to have heated discussion. Regardless of the circumstances, the boards have had some of the best reading ever in recent weeks, and I've found a new level of intellectual respect for many of the members here, whether I agree with them or not. That, to me, is the point of having a message board like this, and it's the reason I come here. If you guys don't look at it the same way, or if you come here to "geek out" or to get reinforcement of your hobby, then I guess I understand why guys like de-lekkertse have a problem here.

[COI]

Basically, you're saying that CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, so there's no problem with buying CGC graded books? You fail to see what's baffling about this? I fail to see how you sleep at night.

Yes, CGC is no worse than buying raw from a dealer, particularly via mail order or over the internet. I've done both. I prefer buying the CGC books. So there's nothing particularly baffling about it in my mind. Are YOU truly saying that CGC is worse than buying raw from dealers?

 

I guess I'm never going to be a BSD in the comic world then, because the only things I have spent 6 figures on are the pieces of real estate I own. Regardless of my financial situation, I just couldn't justify spending that kind of cash on a comic, because I can't see any avenue that's safe enough for me to do so. If you feel that this market isn't flawed enough to stop you from spending the kind of money you do, then all the more power to you, and good luck! It isn't my money.

Let's make a deal, Andrew. You don't force your opinions on financial prudence down my throat, and I'll agree to do the same.

 

1)Nope, I'm not saying that. I am saying it's like choosing to be deaf instead of blind; It's a little better, but it still sucks.

 

2) No deal.

[october]

Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see?

 

Bingo. When you reveal out flaws in a system that people have spent years and thousands of dollars buying into, you are going to get a lot of backlash. I have noticed it especially in Delekkerste's case. It's a shame when people are flamed for voicing negative (or objective) viewpoints because all that really does is stifle worthwhile discussion. How much value would a conversation on here have if everyone just slapped each other on the backs in regards to their purchases? Personally, I wecome criticisms of my buying habits, I find them interesting. It's how I learn and how I will ultimately become a smarter buyer.

[tth2]

Ok Tim, I get it. Listen, I think you're a good guy, and I enjoy talking to you, but why is it that you get rattled by these posts? If you're comfortable with your actions, who cares what I say? And why do you take these posts as a direct attack on you and your personal collecting habits?

 

I find it funny that during the entire history of these boards, anytime anyone has a more bearish outlook on things, he gets slammed for being opinionated, or for "preaching". Gene (De-Lekkerste) for example, is one of the more intelligent posts on here, has a wealth of knowledge on a variety of topics, and used to be one of the best contributors on this site. He's hardly ever here now because he's been bashed so many times for his views. Why is it so wrong to have a bearish opinion around here? Are we raining on the parade of those of you who like to "geek out" over pretty books? Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see? Or maybe it's just that you percieve our posts to be a negative force around here? Either way, it's hitting a nerve for one reason or another.

 

Personally, I thrive on debating. I love to debate, if nothing else, because I learn from it. And the more heated it is, the more I enjoy it, as long as everyone remains civil. If you're taking my opinion as an attack, that's your own insecurity with the issue at hand. Have I ever personally said to you "Tim, you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person to spend the kind of money you do on books"? No, because for all I know you're a billionaire and 6 figures is chump change for you. If that's the case, then that's great, and I encourage you to bid away if it makes you happy. However, constantly sporting a bullish attitude for the market, without a contrarion view, may give less informed people the wrong impression about the market. I

 

just ran into someone at a LCS who was buying new books off of the stands, looking for the nicest copies to send off to PGX. He was buying multiple copies of some random book(all-star Batman and Robin #2, or something like that) and was excited to get them graded. According to him, he does this with at least 50 books a month. And he's not doing it for resale on Ebay, but is holding them for "the future". So, what if I told him that what he was doing was a fool's errand? How would he react? Not well, I can tell you that. So what did I do? I told him to come here and read, and that if he did, he'd get a whole new perspective on the hobby.

 

My point is, IMO it's good to have opposing viewpoints, and it's good to have heated discussion. Regardless of the circumstances, the boards have had some of the best reading ever in recent weeks, and I've found a new level of intellectual respect for many of the members here, whether I agree with them or not. That, to me, is the point of having a message board like this, and it's the reason I come here. If you guys don't look at it the same way, or if you come here to "geek out" or to get reinforcement of your hobby, then I guess I understand why guys like de-lekkertse have a problem here.

Andrew, like you I thrive on debate and I enjoy debating with those whom I respect (which includes you, for what it's worth). However, I think there's a big difference between posting a critical opinion and lecturing, which is a point I've made to Gene (who is also someone I enjoy debating with). The former posits a position and lays out supporting reasons. The latter may do that too, but usually is phrased in a way that commands people to follow the advice given, and either expressly or implicitly calls them stupid if they don't. Maybe it's just the way I'm wired, but that bugs the hell out of me. FFB is an example of someone who often posts opinions different from mine, but for the most part he doesn't lecture.

 

It's kind of funny, but I actually don't feel like I'm shouting down the bears. If anything, the bears have taken over the boards, so I feel I'm just voicing the minority position right now to balance out all the gloom and doom and bring a little perspective of someone who's been chasing big ticket books both before and after CGC.

 

As an aside, Gene hasn't been on the boards lately because he's on vacation. How do I know this? Because he passed through Hong Kong last week and came over to Casa Tim for an afternoon, where we hung out and shot the sh-it. He's probably leaving Vietnam as I speak and heading to Korea.

[adamstrange]

Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see?

 

Bingo. When you reveal out flaws in a system that people have spent years and thousands of dollars buying into, you are going to get a lot of backlash. I have noticed it especially in Delekkerste's case. It's a shame when people are flamed for voicing negative (or objective) viewpoints because all that really does is stifle worthwhile discussion. How much value would a conversation on here have if everyone just slapped each other on the backs in regards to their purchases? Personally, I wecome criticisms of my buying habits, I find them interesting. It's how I learn and how I will ultimately become a smarter buyer.

 

I will take a chance at a follow-up response. I try to treat questions seriously and, where possible, avoid extraneous emoticons and arguments. I have no problems with Delekkerste's making crash arguments or COI stating his opinion. TTH2 chose to respond to COI with the same tone used by COI. I prefer to lighten things up a bit (hey, it's a comic forum), but at the same time I think that I replied to the substance of COIs remark. If either of you are for open debate and want to avoid people being chased from the forum, why not come back in the same spirit with a reasoned reply.

[adamstrange]

Ok Tim, I get it. Listen, I think you're a good guy, and I enjoy talking to you, but why is it that you get rattled by these posts? If you're comfortable with your actions, who cares what I say? And why do you take these posts as a direct attack on you and your personal collecting habits?

 

I find it funny that during the entire history of these boards, anytime anyone has a more bearish outlook on things, he gets slammed for being opinionated, or for "preaching". Gene (De-Lekkerste) for example, is one of the more intelligent posts on here, has a wealth of knowledge on a variety of topics, and used to be one of the best contributors on this site. He's hardly ever here now because he's been bashed so many times for his views. Why is it so wrong to have a bearish opinion around here? Are we raining on the parade of those of you who like to "geek out" over pretty books? Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see? Or maybe it's just that you percieve our posts to be a negative force around here? Either way, it's hitting a nerve for one reason or another.

 

Personally, I thrive on debating. I love to debate, if nothing else, because I learn from it. And the more heated it is, the more I enjoy it, as long as everyone remains civil. If you're taking my opinion as an attack, that's your own insecurity with the issue at hand. Have I ever personally said to you "Tim, you're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person to spend the kind of money you do on books"? No, because for all I know you're a billionaire and 6 figures is chump change for you. If that's the case, then that's great, and I encourage you to bid away if it makes you happy. However, constantly sporting a bullish attitude for the market, without a contrarion view, may give less informed people the wrong impression about the market. I

 

just ran into someone at a LCS who was buying new books off of the stands, looking for the nicest copies to send off to PGX. He was buying multiple copies of some random book(all-star Batman and Robin #2, or something like that) and was excited to get them graded. According to him, he does this with at least 50 books a month. And he's not doing it for resale on Ebay, but is holding them for "the future". So, what if I told him that what he was doing was a fool's errand? How would he react? Not well, I can tell you that. So what did I do? I told him to come here and read, and that if he did, he'd get a whole new perspective on the hobby.

 

My point is, IMO it's good to have opposing viewpoints, and it's good to have heated discussion. Regardless of the circumstances, the boards have had some of the best reading ever in recent weeks, and I've found a new level of intellectual respect for many of the members here, whether I agree with them or not. That, to me, is the point of having a message board like this, and it's the reason I come here. If you guys don't look at it the same way, or if you come here to "geek out" or to get reinforcement of your hobby, then I guess I understand why guys like de-lekkertse have a problem here.

Andrew, like you I thrive on debate and I enjoy debating with those whom I respect (which includes you, for what it's worth). However, I think there's a big difference between posting a critical opinion and lecturing, which is a point I've made to Gene (who is also someone I enjoy debating with). The former posits a position and lays out supporting reasons. The latter may do that too, but usually is phrased in a way that commands people to follow the advice given, and either expressly or implicitly calls them stupid if they don't. Maybe it's just the way I'm wired, but that bugs the hell out of me. FFB is an example of someone who often posts opinions different from mine, but for the most part he doesn't lecture.

 

It's kind of funny, but I actually don't feel like I'm shouting down the bears. If anything, the bears have taken over the boards, so I feel I'm just voicing the minority position right now to balance out all the gloom and doom and bring a little perspective of someone who's been chasing big ticket books both before and after CGC.

 

As an aside, Gene hasn't been on the boards lately because he's on vacation. How do I know this? Because he passed through Hong Kong last week and came over to Casa Tim for an afternoon, where we hung out and shot the sh-it. He's probably leaving Vietnam as I speak and heading to Korea.

 

Do we have proof he was alive when he left.

[adamstrange]

Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see?

 

Bingo. When you reveal out flaws in a system that people have spent years and thousands of dollars buying into, you are going to get a lot of backlash. I have noticed it especially in Delekkerste's case. It's a shame when people are flamed for voicing negative (or objective) viewpoints because all that really does is stifle worthwhile discussion. How much value would a conversation on here have if everyone just slapped each other on the backs in regards to their purchases? Personally, I wecome criticisms of my buying habits, I find them interesting. It's how I learn and how I will ultimately become a smarter buyer.

 

I avoid criticizing people's buying habits unless I understand what their goals are. My point was that people waste money on any number of silly things and comics aren't much different. If you've got no job, and a wife and kids dependent on you and you're trying to make a killing buying comics, then I'll be the first to opine that it might not be a good strategy. Happily, I don't think that everyone on the boards fits that profile.

[tth2]

As an aside, Gene hasn't been on the boards lately because he's on vacation. How do I know this? Because he passed through Hong Kong last week and came over to Casa Tim for an afternoon, where we hung out and shot the sh-it. He's probably leaving Vietnam as I speak and heading to Korea.

 

Do we have proof he was alive when he left.

Casa Tim, or Vietnam? If he went to the places I told him to go in Ho Chi Minh City, he should only be half alive now.

[october]

Or is it that we're pointing out things that you don't want to see?

 

Bingo. When you reveal out flaws in a system that people have spent years and thousands of dollars buying into, you are going to get a lot of backlash. I have noticed it especially in Delekkerste's case. It's a shame when people are flamed for voicing negative (or objective) viewpoints because all that really does is stifle worthwhile discussion. How much value would a conversation on here have if everyone just slapped each other on the backs in regards to their purchases? Personally, I wecome criticisms of my buying habits, I find them interesting. It's how I learn and how I will ultimately become a smarter buyer.

 

I avoid criticizing people's buying habits unless I understand what their goals are. My point was that people waste money on any number of silly things and comics aren't much different. If you've got no job, and a wife and kids dependent on you and you're trying to make a killing buying comics, then I'll be the first to opine that it might not be a good strategy. Happily, I don't think that everyone on the boards fits that profile.

 

I am just pointing out that people with a large stake in something (be it comics or otherwise) are often unreceptive to criticism, valid or not. Not only that, they often take it as a personal slight.

 

As for tone, people tend to get caught up in the moment and posts can end up being a little less diplomatic then they should be. I have definitely been guilty of this in the past. I guess I would just chalk it up to passion and a need for brevity. It can get pretty old qualifying every single point.

 

In the end, I post things I would like to hear myself. Regardless of my goals, if I am overpaying for a book, I want to hear about it. If people think my money and my time would be better spent chasing a "better" title, I want to hear about it. If I can get better looking books for less money elsewhere, I want to hear about it. Honestly, I like criticism. It has saved me a lot of time and money in the past.