Question about Fingerprints and how much it effects the grades of high grade comics? 0

[billbrown7080]

I have another question about high grade comics and how to grade them.

I have quite a few comics especially new and modern age comics that are easily 8.0 + comics but they have fingerprints on the covers right where the reader would hold them while reading them, some of them have even wore some of the color off the covers where the fingerprints are.

I am providing pictures of Amazing Spiderman #572 as an example of a modern age comic with fingerprints and the fingerprints Has even wore some of the color off the cover.

I am also providing pictures of a silver age copy of Avengers 52, in my opinion this comic is in the  8.0 range but it has fingerprints on the cover right where the reader would hold it to read it , but unlike the Amazing Spiderman #572,  this comic simply has fingerprints, they have not wore any of the color  off the cover.

 

I would greatly appreciate any advice on how much fingerprint  defects like this effects comics in the high grade range and would appreciate any opinions on what the grades of these 2 comics are with these fingerprints

 

 

thank you so much to anyone who responds

 

[JollyComics]

One grade drop. That 's what CGC graders told me at the show few years ago.

[Tony S]

Fingerprints would be a defect that has more impact at the NM grades.  A book that is otherwise 8.0 is probably still 8.0 with a fingerprint or two.  A book that is otherwise  9.8 is probably going to drop to 9.2-9.4. Maybe even 9.0.  There is also the issue of degree. Not every fingerprint looks the same.  Your last picture has several fingerprints/smudges and would certainly be a bigger defect with a larger impact on grade than some of the others you picture. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Tony S

[JollyComics]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:16 AM, Tony S said:

Fingerprints would be a defect that has more impact at the NM grades.  A book that is otherwise 8.0 is probably still 8.0 with a fingerprint or two.  A book that is otherwise  9.8 is probably going to drop to 9.2-9.4. Maybe even 9.0.  There is also the issue of degree. Not every fingerprint looks the same.  Your last picture has several fingerprints/smudges and would certainly be a bigger defect with a larger impact on grade than some of the others you picture. 

I have to add more details.  At CGC booth, the grader was in present. I showed him the NM copy with a light neat fingerprint (no smear mark). He said it is one grade lower. I am not sure if it would drop to 9.0/9.2. Few hours later, I brought one key issue (Brave and the Bold #34 - 1st SA Hawkman) from the dealer (his permission) to CGC booth and showed the moderate smeared fingerprints (about 3 fingerprints overlapped) on the back cover.  He said this was the worst one than the first one and this may be two or two and half point drop. The dealer's grade was 7.0 so I assumed it was somewhere 5.0 to 5.5. I brought it back to the dealer and told him about the defect and grade drops. I offered him for $150 off his price but the dealer disagreed and said no flatly. 

Back in 2019 and partly 2020, I didn't see any graders were in present anymore. I assumed that they want us to submit the books instead. I missed old days when the graders were around at the shows.

[Tony S]

It would have been more helpful for the grader to have offered you a quick opinion on the books grade. Not on a grade drop. Two points from what?  Where was the starting point? 

It's actually a mistake t think in terms of "how many points to take off for xxx defect".  That's not really how it works. If it did, it would be common for books with a lot defects to grade less than -0-.  

Instead, many defects should be thought of from the standpoint of "what is the highest grade a book can get with xxx defect?"  A NM book with a subscription crease rarely does better than 6.0 and normally is in the 5 something range. Then there is also the idea of the lower the grade, the more defects allowed.  If the B&B 34 was otherwise an upper mid grade looking copy, a few fingerprints on the back cover are not going to make much difference. 

It seems logical to assume CGC  views sending graders to shows as an inefficient use of their time.  Except perhaps the one or two shows a year where on site grading actually takes place.  But I would also point out CGC generally doesn't answer "what if?" grading questions.  You won't get answers to such grading questions here on the "ask CGC" sub forum.  And I think it wise they don't answer such questions.  It will just lead to lawyering and debating at some point. Each book needs to be examined by graders to arrive at a grade. Not some discussion from afar that goes "if a book is xxx grade now and has xxx wrong with it, how much does it affect the grade?".  That's just a foolish question that leads to foolish answers. Because the real answer is "it depends. Let me see it" 

[JollyComics]

On 10/30/2021 at 2:25 PM, Tony S said:

It would have been more helpful for the grader to have offered you a quick opinion on the books grade. Not on a grade drop. Two points from what?  Where was the starting point? 

It's actually a mistake t think in terms of "how many points to take off for xxx defect".  That's not really how it works. If it did, it would be common for books with a lot defects to grade less than -0-.  

Instead, many defects should be thought of from the standpoint of "what is the highest grade a book can get with xxx defect?"  A NM book with a subscription crease rarely does better than 6.0 and normally is in the 5 something range. Then there is also the idea of the lower the grade, the more defects allowed.  If the B&B 34 was otherwise an upper mid grade looking copy, a few fingerprints on the back cover are not going to make much difference. 

It seems logical to assume CGC  views sending graders to shows as an inefficient use of their time.  Except perhaps the one or two shows a year where on site grading actually takes place.  But I would also point out CGC generally doesn't answer "what if?" grading questions.  You won't get answers to such grading questions here on the "ask CGC" sub forum.  And I think it wise they don't answer such questions.  It will just lead to lawyering and debating at some point. Each book needs to be examined by graders to arrive at a grade. Not some discussion from afar that goes "if a book is xxx grade now and has xxx wrong with it, how much does it affect the grade?".  That's just a foolish question that leads to foolish answers. Because the real answer is "it depends. Let me see it" 

Remember CGC graders were friendly people 5 - 6 years ago. They were open to the public but they are hid and we don't see them anymore.

Maybe their grading were not tighter in past until now.

[theCapraAegagrus]

How many fingerprints also matters, but I generally agree with the "0.2-0.5 drop" statement in high-grade.

[Topnotchman]

Finger prints are factored into the final grade by eye appeal.  Lots of variables from the examples posted in this thread to less obvious like dark oil spots on the back cover of a spidy 300 or watchmen 1.  

[Randall Dowling]

On 11/1/2021 at 8:17 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

How many fingerprints also matters, but I generally agree with the "0.2-0.5 drop" statement in high-grade.

Doesn't it depend on grade?  

I've seen a lot of Vampirella 113s with fingerprints on the back cover (a plague on copies of that book due to the all black back cover and paper stock) that are otherwise easy 9.4s but I wouldn't grade them higher than 8.5.  

Collecting Vampirellas, Creepys, and Eeries (Original Warrens) is an exercise in suffering through fingerprints due to the incredible number of black covers.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:24 AM, Randall Dowling said:

Doesn't it depend on grade? 

Maybe, Idk.

[LowGradeBronze]

My understanding of VFN 8.0 is that only the very slightest cover wear is allowed. That would rule out anything with ink loss due to handling grading higher than 7.5. More than just a hint of fingerprints would seem to eliminate the chances of a 9.0 plus grade, otherwise what is the point of a grading system? At the top end of the scale, 9.0 and above, you are clearly looking for an absence of defects rather than defects. 

[comicginger1789]

I have always wanted to experiment with the removal of fingerprints. I have yet to find a method that works nicely without destroying the book, especially on really oily prints that have remained on a book for a long time. 

[Tony S]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:24 PM, comicginger1789 said:

I have always wanted to experiment with the removal of fingerprints. I have yet to find a method that works nicely without destroying the book, especially on really oily prints that have remained on a book for a long time. 

It's important to understand how fingerprints come to be. Comic books are printed with oil based inks. People's fingertips have oil on them. Which is why it is important to wash your hands before handling comic books. If a person's fingertips are oily and they handle a book with sufficient pressure (which is very little) , the oil on the fingertips literally melds with the the oil based inks.

From the standpoint of cleaning,  you can sometimes gently buff off smudges with a soft cloth.  But if the FBI could match your fingerprint with what is on the cover, there is no safe way to remove it. It's part of the cover now. Just as if it were printed that way. 

[comicginger1789]

On 11/2/2021 at 2:00 AM, Tony S said:

It's important to understand how fingerprints come to be. Comic books are printed with oil based inks. People's fingertips have oil on them. Which is why it is important to wash your hands before handling comic books. If a person's fingertips are oily and they handle a book with sufficient pressure (which is very little) , the oil on the fingertips literally melds with the the oil based inks.

From the standpoint of cleaning,  you can sometimes gently buff off smudges with a soft cloth.  But if the FBI could match your fingerprint with what is on the cover, there is no safe way to remove it. It's part of the cover now. Just as if it were printed that way. 

Yes that appears to be the case. I was talking some deep level oil retraction science stuff or a way to wash the contaminated area so that the fingerprint cleared off but not the inks. 
 

these are invasive methods I know but I was curious and had done some experimenting. I’m aware that dry cleaning does very little for these fingerprints and like you said they now become part of the book.

Sometimes I wonder too what people had on their hands. I have a copy of that DC 100 page Spectacular that Wrightson did the cover for. The black cover has yellow marks and finger prints in yellow…like what was on that persons hands and do I even really want to know!?!?

[FFB]

On 11/1/2021 at 11:03 AM, LowGradeBronze said:

My understanding of VFN 8.0 is that only the very slightest cover wear is allowed. That would rule out anything with ink loss due to handling grading higher than 7.5. More than just a hint of fingerprints would seem to eliminate the chances of a 9.0 plus grade, otherwise what is the point of a grading system? At the top end of the scale, 9.0 and above, you are clearly looking for an absence of defects rather than defects. 

You should get the new Overstreet Grading Guide.  Ink loss is a very broad concept that includes color flecks and you can see those all the way up to 9.9.  There are thousands of CGC 9.8s out there with ink loss on the spine or back cover near the staples from where the books rubbed against other books or against the box while being shipped from the distributor.  Words like "slight," and "small," and "very minor" have defined meanings in the Grading Guide and, using those definitions, the way you're phrasing your statement about VF 8.0 isn't technically accurate.  

As with anything else, the effect ink loss has on grading is a matter of degree.  There are some rules about the max grade that certain defects (like tape) will allow, but "ink loss" isn't really one of them until you get to 10.0.   

Also, I just want to point out that I'm not picking on you, I'm just making a suggestion that will be helpful for most of the people who post here if they don't already own the Overstreet Grading Guide.  Get it, read it, study it, refer to it often.  

[gregwynn]

Always makes me wonder with CGC and no gloves...I submitted 9 ASM 194's a couple years ago and 5 of the 9 got hit for fingerprints. Since then i have submitted about 20 more ASM 194's and not a 1 has got hit for fingerprints since.