• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023)
9 9

Started by paperheart,

3,126 posts in this topic

Gatsby77

Gatsby77

Posted
Posted
16 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

 

Obviously we're never going to see eye to eye on this debate. I'll give one last post though explaining why Civil War is distinctly a Captain America movie and not an Avengers movie, even though it's officially part of the Captain America sub-franchise.

I advise you to watch Civil War like I did recently.

First the obvious, it has Captain America in the freaking title. Also, nowhere in Civil War do we hear the familiar Avengers theme as in actual Avengers movies. It's Captain America music in Civil War.

@Gatsby77 Civil War begins with Bucky, a Captain America character, being brainwashed to prepare for an assassination. We then get the Lagos Avengers mission with Cap in charge. The Avengers are in this movie because he is the leader of the Avengers. That's his life and there's not much else.

Yes, we do segue to a long scene with Tony Stark (which accounts for most of the Stark minutes that theCapraAg references), but this scene serves mostly to introduce his mother(who gets killed, adding to Stark's thirst for revenge) and to establish Stark's position on oversight which will conflict with Cap's position. After these scenes with Stark, the primary times we see Stark are when he is an antagonist to Steve Rogers. Twice when Stark tries to get Steve to sign the Accords and another two times when Stark is physically fighting Steve over apprehending Bucky at the airport or trying to kill Bucky in Siberia. We don't even see Stark in his Iron Man suit until one and a half hours into the movie at the airport battle.

Stark has a solo scene with Peter Parker, but the purpose of this scene to the story is so that Stark can obtain another obstacle (Spider-Man) to Steve's mission.

The battle at the airport is totally about Team Iron Man, under orders from General Ross, to apprehend Bucky.

So for the majority of the hour and a half of Civil War before the airport scene, the movie's bulk is composed of scenes that:

A. Involve Steve Rogers personal life (the death of Peggy Carter and romancing Sharon Carter ew) 

B. Involve Zemo, a CA villain attempting to frame and manipulate Bucky, Captain Rogers' best friend.

C. Involve Bucky, Cap's best friend, running from the law and being chased/saved by Cap (a scene that mirrors the end of WInter Soldier when Bucky saves Steve).

Throughout Civil War, Steve Rogers and Tony Stark are not equals story-wise. The bulk of the film involves either Steve's personal life or characters like Zemo or Bucky who are tied to Captain America's world. Cap's mission in Civil War, to find out who is behind framing Bucky is the main goal of the movie. Tony Stark, General Ross, and Zemo are the obstacles to that mission. Yes, the ideological differences of oversight are there, but Tony and Steve would still have been at odds over Bucky with or without the Sokovia Accords.

That Natasha helps Steve and Bucky escape and Tony briefly aids Steve and Bucky in Siberia shows you how much they really care about the Accords and government oversight. Stark is ready to aid them 100% until he learns that Bucky killed his parents.

The movie ends with Steve Rogers freeing the arrested Avengers and post credit scene is Steve and Bucky in Wakanda.

Captain America Civil War is 100% a Captain America movie. If you are still in denial, watch the movie again with my above points in mind and you will see that I'm right.

No.

Your synopsis ignores the core plot of the film - whether the Avengers submit to government control via the Sokovia Accords, or not.

The impetus for this was the botched Avengers mission in the opening scene - wherein the Scarlet Witch blows up a hospital killing civilians -- which leads to the Sokovia Accords that splits the Avengers team, each lining up behind ideological opposites -- Iron Man leading one side and Captain America leading the other.

That's why they fight at the airport. Yes - it's ostensibly over capturing Bucky - but the only reason Iron Man's team is after Bucky in the first place is they've been ordered to bring him in by the feds - i.e., Col. Ross etc.

Bucky is just the MacGuffin for larger issue of government oversight vs. continued independence.

He's just the first mission, but the *actual* conflict is whether the Avengers itself will submit to government control vs. not.

It could just as easily have been Iron Man: Civil War, just replace "Bucky goes rogue" with "Rhodey goes rogue under government orders."

The subplot didn't matter nearly as much as the primary conflict of the film: Avengers vs. Avengers at the Airport - which continues with the Tony v. Steve conflict throughout.

Hence why Marvel itself emphasizing it's an Avengers film.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2021 at 9:27 AM, Gatsby77 said:

No.

Your synopsis ignores the core plot of the film - whether the Avengers submit to government control via the Sokovia Accords, or not.

The impetus for this was the botched Avengers mission in the opening scene - wherein the Scarlet Witch blows up a hospital killing civilians -- which leads to the Sokovia Accords that splits the Avengers team, each lining up behind ideological opposites -- Iron Man leading one side and Captain America leading the other.

That's why they fight at the airport. Yes - it's ostensibly over capturing Bucky - but the only reason Iron Man's team is after Bucky in the first place is they've been ordered to bring him in by the feds - i.e., Col. Ross etc.

Bucky is just the MacGuffin for larger issue of government oversight vs. continued independence.

He's just the first mission, but the *actual* conflict is whether the Avengers itself will submit to government control vs. not.

It could just as easily have been Iron Man: Civil War, just replace "Bucky goes rogue" with "Rhodey goes rogue under government orders."

The subplot didn't matter nearly as much as the primary conflict of the film: Avengers vs. Avengers at the Airport - which continues with the Tony v. Steve conflict throughout.

Hence why Marvel itself emphasizing it's an Avengers film.

In the spirit of diplomacy, I’ll say Civil War is 60% Captain America and 40% Avengers. 

The Sokovia Accords and differences over government regulation do become the environment of Civil War, but the protagonist of the movie, the character with an active goal, is still Steve Rogers and his goal throughout the movie is to figure out who framed Bucky and what this villain’s bigger plan is. The obstacles to that goal are General Ross, Stark, T’Challa, and of course, Zemo, himself.

Yes, the accident explosion  in Lagos is the impetus for the Sokovia Accords, but the impetus for Steve’s mission to find the truth is the UN explosion that kills T’Chaka and starts a worldwide manhunt for the innocent Bucky.

Edited by @therealsilvermane
Link to comment
Share on other sites
@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted (edited)

Zack Snyder aka the All-Father on if he would change anything about the MCU:

"Nothing. I could have changed it so it would have maybe made less money or been less beloved. But for what they’ve created – I don’t know that there is a better way to do it."

You can say it, Mr. Snyder..."because Kevin Feige is a genius."

 

Edited by @therealsilvermane
Link to comment
Share on other sites
▫️

▫️

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, @therealsilvermane said:

Zack Snyder aka the All-Father on if he would change anything about the MCU:

"Nothing. I could have changed it so it would have maybe made less money or been less beloved. But for what they’ve created – I don’t know that there is a better way to do it."

You can say it, Mr. Snyder..."because Kevin Feige is a genius."

 

Interesting. Sounds like you could learn a thing or two from Zack. A genuinely nice guy who doesn’t put down the work of others. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Oddball said:

Interesting. Sounds like you could learn a thing or two from Zack. A genuinely nice guy who doesn’t put down the work of others. 

I posted over in Justice League Snyder Cut that I really liked the Snyder Cut and I have mad respect for Snyder(as we all should) especially the classy way he's handled himself publicly amidst all the controversy earlier this year. I just think it's funny that some comics collectors put Snyder on some pedestal when he is 100% responsible for the increasing unpopularity of DC films from Man of Steel to Batman v Superman and thus the devaluation of those intellectual properties, yet seem quick to constantly doubt Marvel Studios with each new movie when it's Marvel Studios we have to thank for making our hobby and culture the #1 thing in the world and quadrupling the value of our comic book collections.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
▫️

▫️

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

I posted over in Justice League Snyder Cut that I really liked the Snyder Cut and I have mad respect for Snyder(as we all should) especially the classy way he's handled himself publicly amidst all the controversy earlier this year. I just think it's funny that some comics collectors put Snyder on some pedestal when he is 100% responsible for the increasing unpopularity of DC films from Man of Steel to Batman v Superman and thus the devaluation of those intellectual properties, yet seem quick to constantly doubt Marvel Studios with each new movie when it's Marvel Studios we have to thank for making our hobby and culture the #1 thing in the world and quadrupling the value of our comic book collections.

You really believe all that don’t you? I don’t doubt it. I won’t bother explaining the history of the actual comic book movies that paved the road which the MCU currently finds success on. You kids today only see the current person on top and never the shoulders on which they stand. I’m glad you think our hobby is the #1 thing in the world though, priorities right? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Oddball said:

You really believe all that don’t you? I don’t doubt it. I won’t bother explaining the history of the actual comic book movies that paved the road which the MCU currently finds success on. You kids today only see the current person on top and never the shoulders on which they stand. I’m glad you think our hobby is the #1 thing in the world though, priorities right? 

This isn't what I believe. This is what is. Comic books and super-heroes have taken over popular culture over the past 10 years and you have Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios to thank for that. You don't have to explain anything to me as I'm more than aware of the history of comic book movies before that, but Sam Rami's Spider-Man or even Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight didn't create the tsunami of comic book culture that has grandmothers now diehard fans of comic book movies. Marvel Studios did that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
▫️

▫️

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted
6 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

This isn't what I believe. This is what is. Comic books and super-heroes have taken over popular culture over the past 10 years and you have Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios to thank for that. You don't have to explain anything to me as I'm more than aware of the history of comic book movies before that, but Sam Rami's Spider-Man or even Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight didn't create the tsunami of comic book culture that has grandmothers now diehard fans of comic book movies. Marvel Studios did that.

I didn’t bother explaining because it would be pointless. I keep forgetting who I’m talking with. I’ve never seen such obsession with a brand. I can only make sense of it if you’re a teenager. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
Bosco685

Bosco685

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted
6 hours ago, Oddball said:

I didn’t bother explaining because it would be pointless. I keep forgetting who I’m talking with. I’ve never seen such obsession with a brand. I can only make sense of it if you’re a teenager. 

Will you never learn what it is you are dealing with?

MCU_tantrum.gif.2c606340674bfdcc7decb9e0f558eea7.gif

:baiting:

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Popular Post
Gatsby77

Gatsby77

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted
On 6/7/2021 at 8:25 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Some people forget that The Dark Knight Returns kick-started comic book pop culture by way of influencing the production of 1989's Batman. :facepalm:

Or that Batman (1989) had a larger influence on making comic books - and superheroes - mainstream than literally any comic book film from 2000 to present (yes - that includes X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Batman Begins, The Avengers, et. al.).

Link to comment
Share on other sites
@therealsilvermane

@therealsilvermane

Posted
Posted
On 6/16/2021 at 3:52 PM, Gatsby77 said:

Or that Batman (1989) had a larger influence on making comic books - and superheroes - mainstream than literally any comic book film from 2000 to present (yes - that includes X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Batman Begins, The Avengers, et. al.).

I'm not discounting the influence of Tim Burton's 1989 Batman. IMO, however, its greatest contribution was showing other filmmakers how to properly make a real comic book superhero movie. Batman 1989's influence can be seen in Singer's X-Men, Raimi's Spider-Man, Ang Lee's Hulk, obviously Batman Begins, and a little in Iron Man. And yes, for the summer of 1989 and into 1990, the world had Batmania.

But it doesn't compare to the pop culture takeover by superhero culture which has happened over the past decade as a result of Disney and Marvel Studios' success. Spider-Man and X-Men didn't cause Martin Scorsese to whine about superhero movies taking all the air in the room, but the MCU did. I don't have engaging nerd discussions with literal grandmothers about Christopher Nolan's Batman Trilogy or X2, but I do about the Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy or that Thanos guy.

Sure, Batman 1989 was a pretty big wave with influence. But then so was 1978 Superman, or TV's Wonder Woman or Hulk, or Bryan Singer's X-Men. The MCU has been a pop culture tsunami the likes of which we've never really seen before, not necessarily because of its box office, but in how it transcends demographics and causes other studios to react to its success. I think it's even surpassed Star Wars in that arena.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
9 9
Go to topic listing