THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:16 PM, Artboy99 said:

it would be nice if the chat could be about the movie. I returned to this thread to see what others have thought about the movie and it was very disappointing to see 6 pages of stuff that turned out to not be about The Marvels. Oh well.

The entire discussion is centred around why the movie is flopping, so it is directly related to the movie. 

[N7 M31]

@VintageComics  I thought the debate was over for you and that you were elated at the outcome?

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:34 PM, N7 M31 said:

@VintageComics  I thought the debate was over for you and that you were elated at the outcome?

Which one of my posts disagree with my statement?

Even though a debate is over, it still doesn't stop others from being wrong so I'm here for the rest of you now, not for me. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[N7 M31]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:39 AM, VintageComics said:

Which one of my posts disagree with my statement?

Even though a debate is over, it still doesn't stop others from being wrong so I'm here for the rest of you now, not for me. 

I don't believe the debate is over because there is still evidence that needs to be presented.  To answer your first question .. you should probably go back and read some of them

[Bosco685]

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:39 PM, jsilverjanet said:

for all the talk here, I'm curious how many actually go to the movies regularly

or is this how everyone hates modern comics but hasn't purchased a comic in over 20 years?

 

On 11/14/2023 at 12:42 PM, jsilverjanet said:

and I believe @NewWorldOrderdid actually see the movie and posted a review, I was talking about the rest of the people in this thread

 

Not yet, but eventually.  Iman Vellani seems to be very enjoyable in her role as Ms Marvel.  From what I’ve seen and heard here and elsewhere her series deserves to be seen first.   So after I watch Jack Ryan season 4 and a few other things I will try and make the time for it.  I mean, I still have not seen She Hulk.  By the time I’m done with Ms Marvel, I suspect that the Marvels will be on Disney+.

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:55 PM, N7 M31 said:

I don't believe the debate is over because there is still evidence that needs to be presented. 

If there is evidence, what is it why hasn't it been presented yet?

We've proven that Superhero movies are more attractive to men than to women. You can't argue with nature. It's unequivocal. Even Jaybuck's attempt to overturn the conclusion proves that.

We've proven that the movies are flopping. You can't argue with the math. 8 Billion people know it. 

We've proven that outside corporate involvement has forced Marvel to lose it's direction. Disney has even issued a statement saying exactly this. Bosco posted it today, FOR GOODNESS SAKES. 

So which part of the debate isn't over?

The one where people can't agree with immutable facts and would rather bend reality to make their own beliefs fit?

Weird. 

Either make a point or stop trolling me.

 

[Azkaban]

I go and see every comic book movie when they come out with a group of friends used to be we would go first day so as not to get spoiled and then I would go again that weekend with my wife and daughter and they loved them plus I got to see them twice. They finally understood what the fuss was all about and could see why the old man loved his comics  but now I can't even get my wife to go anymore and my daughter sometimes wants to still go but even she isn't liking them anymore. She hated Thor Love and Thunder said it was stupid and made Thor seem like a 13 year old. I think Eternals was the last one my wife went to and she fell asleep. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:12 PM, Azkaban said:

but now I can't even get my wife to go anymore and my daughter sometimes wants to still go but even she isn't liking them anymore. She hated Thor Love and Thunder said it was stupid and made Thor seem like a 13 year old. I think Eternals was the last one my wife went to and she fell asleep. 

If everyone wants I can take the blame for this. 

[1950's war comics]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:09 PM, VintageComics said:

If there is evidence, what is it why hasn't it been presented yet?

We've proven that Superhero movies are more attractive to men than to women. You can't argue with nature. It's unequivocal. Even Jaybuck's attempt to overturn the conclusion proves that.

We've proven that the movies are flopping. You can't argue with the math. 8 Billion people know it. 

We've proven that outside corporate involvement has forced Marvel to lose it's direction. Disney has even issued a statement saying exactly this. Bosco posted it today, FOR GOODNESS SAKES. 

So which part of the debate isn't over?

The one where people can't agree with immutable facts and would rather bend reality to make their own beliefs fit?

Weird. 

Either make a point or stop trolling me.

 

i second that the debate is over !  and we all salute you !!

Edited November 14, 2023 by 1950's war comics

[Bosco685]

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:09 PM, VintageComics said:

On 11/14/2023 at 2:55 PM, N7 M31 said:

I don't believe the debate is over because there is still evidence that needs to be presented. 

We've proven that outside corporate involvement has forced Marvel to lose it's direction. Disney has even issued a statement saying exactly this. Bosco posted it today, FOR GOODNESS SAKES. 

My apologies.

It was alexgross.com that posted it. 

On 11/14/2023 at 10:06 AM, alexgross.com said:

per the WSJ today:

 

Disney’s Marvel Cinematic Universe has been the most successful movie franchise in history, grossing nearly $30 billion globally over 33 films to date. But this past weekend provided the latest sign that the lucrative stable of superheroes is in need of some rescuing. “The Marvels” grossed a mere $47 million for its domestic box-office debut—a record low for the franchise and a major disappointment even against other recent Marvel movies that have been showing signs of strain. The nine other Marvel movies that have opened since the pandemic closed movie theaters in 2020 have averaged a domestic opening weekend of about $136 million, according to data from Box Office Mojo.  

 

skipping ahead:

 

Moviegoers shouldn’t really expect Hollywood studios to suddenly abandon their timeworn practice of falling back on the familiar. Disney has already broadcast plans to scale back on its studio output, with Chief Executive Bob Iger admitting on last week’s earnings call that “we lost some focus” regarding the quantity and quality of content the company has released of late. But he also added, “We are focusing heavily on the core brands and franchises that fuel all of our businesses”—strongly suggesting that Marvel’s heroes won’t get benched. “New IP has a much lower hit rate than established IP,” noted analyst Doug Creutz of TD Cowen in a report on Disney last week.

 

---

not a surprise that marvel's attempt with marvels to pander to an audience that generally could not care less about superheroes (teen girls) while abandoning any attempt to reel in a middle age and older male audience would result in a giant flop. one second of the preview made that obvious to most folks. 

i think Iger's comment about CORE BRANDS suggests that IRON MAN is about due for a reboot with whoever the most popular actor is today with younger people. whether it will work without RDJ is an open question of course. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by VintageComics

[1950's war comics]

@VintageComics you are the Reed Richards of these boards !! not perfect as no man is ...

but by and large the type of man that other intelligent men will trust and follow ! you are one of if not the best contributor these boards has ever know - thanks 

[N7 M31]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:09 PM, VintageComics said:

If there is evidence, what is it why hasn't it been presented yet?

We've proven that Superhero movies are more attractive to men than to women. You can't argue with nature. It's unequivocal. Even Jaybuck's attempt to overturn the conclusion proves that.

We've proven that the movies are flopping. You can't argue with the math. 8 Billion people know it. 

We've proven that outside corporate involvement has forced Marvel to lose it's direction. Disney has even issued a statement saying exactly this. Bosco posted it today, FOR GOODNESS SAKES. 

So which part of the debate isn't over?

The one where people can't agree with immutable facts and would rather bend reality to make their own beliefs fit?

Weird. 

Either make a point or stop trolling me.

 

I could give you evidence from a different perspective. But I truly believe it wouldn't make a difference to you.  Some of your points why the movies are failing are 100% true based on fact , others not so much. You do you @VintageComics

[jaybuck43]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:30 PM, VintageComics said:

You're actually an expert in media from what I understand so this conversation would be right up your alley, right? So that's why half formed rebuttals like this seem disingenuous.  

Your graph obviously confirms what I've been saying all along, that the audiences are male dominated, but his discussion isn't about sheer numbers. It's about WHO the target audience is and WHY the movies aren't reaching the target audience and that graph answers neither of those questions. 

How many women who saw those movies were dragged by their spouses or partners? 

How many women independently went to see the MCU movies?

How many men independently went to see the MCU movies?

If the majority of men are driven to see these movies, and they drag their partners to see them are the women still the target audience?

Those questions tell the story behind the graph and you'd have to dissect those points to establish the one you're trying to make. 

Tell you what, you invest in the coming women's superteam and I'll invest in the X-men and we can compare notes in 5 years.

The numbers LEAN more male, they are not dominated.  Sure, I don't think ANYONE would argue that superhero audiences skew or lean younger and more male.  BUT the point here is to push back on your comment that women have NO INTEREST in these movies.  (I believe you called it trying to fit a square peg in a round hole).  Women watch superhero movies, a lot more than you seem to believe.  Why do you immediately jump that the women were dragged by their spouse? What about men dragged their spouse?  I can think of at least one female boardie who probably had to drag her spouse to see some of these films.  

Wanna have a discussion about the films?  Sure!

What are the problems?

Fatigue (this is what, the 33rd Marvel film) in 60 years Bond (the second largest cinematic franchise i can think of off the top of my head) has had 25 official films.  Marvel did almost 10 more in 1/6th the time.  No franchise can sustain an audience across THAT many films it's going to wear them out.

Effort: It used to be you went to the theater, watched the movie, and boom you were golden.  Now you needed to watch this Doctor Strange film, and then also know about what happened on the Disney+ Show Wandavision to have any idea whats going on in the latest Spider-Man film.  That's going to turn off your casual viewer.  

Story: This one kinda builds off the fatigue aspect.  From Iron Man to Avengers Endgame, there was a major overarching, planned story.  It was good. You wanted to see the next marvel movie because you wanted to see the next piece in the puzzle.  Since then... these are just kinda stand alone films.  They exist.  They're FINE (in some cases, some are just dreck, looking at you Eternals) but they aren't going anywhere.  So... the more casual viewers are like "what's my incentive to go see it".

Star power: Why did RDJ get paid so much money?  Cause he's a huge star that people like.   Then he rubbed off on the other actors and built them up.  Now Hemsworth, Evens, Ruffelo, etc are all on pretty equal footing.  Is Brie Larson a draw the same way Scarlett Johanson is?  I don't think so.

Competition: Let's be honest, 2020 changed consumption habits.  People STILL do not go back to the theaters in the same numbers they did pre-2020.  We averaged 11 billion a year from 2015-2019, now we'll be lucky to break 9 billion this year (i'm tracking at about 8.7 billion).  People liked being able to just stream at home.  I would not be at all surprised at a lot of your casuals (especially female) being like "O cool, that'll be fun to watch on a crappy night in" or something like that.  

Grounded to cosmic:  For the most part, the MCU has been relatively grounded.  It wasn't until the last film that we got into things like time travel etc.  Yes it was "Thor's from Asgard" and "Outer Space with the Guardians"... but the films and plots remained grounded.  It wasn't until Endgame that we start introducing crazy concepts like time travel (still didn't like that Dues Ex).  Now poop is popping off. We've got multiverse theory, and variants and all these crazy things.  People are starting to roll their eyes at it and say "too far fetched fantasy for me".  

Now specific to this movie there are a couple of problems:

Sag Strike:  Can't send out Brie Larson or Samuel L Jackson to go promote it.  No talk ups on ET, Access, Colbert, etc. to get people excited for it.  Couldn't promote it at NYCC etc. This definitely tracked the movie down.

It just looked bad: Shrug to each their own.  The trailer just looked like  to me, figured i'd skip it and wait to see it on D+.

**********

What is laughable are the people in here talking about how Disney is going bankrupt because of their films.  Film doesn't even make up 10% of their media LINE, let alone the entire company.  (The profit on the DME segment was more than double the entire GROSS of their theatrical unit (Disney splits theatrical revenue 55-45 with AMC etc. (this varies by country and by film, but it's the standard)  The company saw revenue jump 23% from 2021 to 2022.  It's an $82 BILLION dollar a year company.  

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The numbers LEAN more male, they are not dominated.  Sure, I don't think ANYONE would argue that superhero audiences skew or lean younger and more male.  BUT the point here is to push back on your comment that women have NO INTEREST in these movies.  (I believe you called it trying to fit a square peg in a round hole).  Women watch superhero movies, a lot more than you seem to believe.  Why do you immediately jump that the women were dragged by their spouse? What about men dragged their spouse?  I can think of at least one female boardie who probably had to drag her spouse to see some of these films.  

Wanna have a discussion about the films?  Sure!

What are the problems?

Fatigue (this is what, the 33rd Marvel film) in 60 years Bond (the second largest cinematic franchise i can think of off the top of my head) has had 25 official films.  Marvel did almost 10 more in 1/6th the time.  No franchise can sustain an audience across THAT many films it's going to wear them out.

Effort: It used to be you went to the theater, watched the movie, and boom you were golden.  Now you needed to watch this Doctor Strange film, and then also know about what happened on the Disney+ Show Wandavision to have any idea whats going on in the latest Spider-Man film.  That's going to turn off your casual viewer.  

Story: This one kinda builds off the fatigue aspect.  From Iron Man to Avengers Endgame, there was a major overarching, planned story.  It was good. You wanted to see the next marvel movie because you wanted to see the next piece in the puzzle.  Since then... these are just kinda stand alone films.  They exist.  They're FINE (in some cases, some are just dreck, looking at you Eternals) but they aren't going anywhere.  So... the more casual viewers are like "what's my incentive to go see it".

Star power: Why did RDJ get paid so much money?  Cause he's a huge star that people like.   Then he rubbed off on the other actors and built them up.  Now Hemsworth, Evens, Ruffelo, etc are all on pretty equal footing.  Is Brie Larson a draw the same way Scarlett Johanson is?  I don't think so.

Competition: Let's be honest, 2020 changed consumption habits.  People STILL do not go back to the theaters in the same numbers they did pre-2020.  We averaged 11 billion a year from 2015-2019, now we'll be lucky to break 9 billion this year (i'm tracking at about 8.7 billion).  People liked being able to just stream at home.  I would not be at all surprised at a lot of your casuals (especially female) being like "O cool, that'll be fun to watch on a crappy night in" or something like that.  

Grounded to cosmic:  For the most part, the MCU has been relatively grounded.  It wasn't until the last film that we got into things like time travel etc.  Yes it was "Thor's from Asgard" and "Outer Space with the Guardians"... but the films and plots remained grounded.  It wasn't until Endgame that we start introducing crazy concepts like time travel (still didn't like that Dues Ex).  Now poop is popping off. We've got multiverse theory, and variants and all these crazy things.  People are starting to roll their eyes at it and say "too far fetched fantasy for me".  

Now specific to this movie there are a couple of problems:

Sag Strike:  Can't send out Brie Larson or Samuel L Jackson to go promote it.  No talk ups on ET, Access, Colbert, etc. to get people excited for it.  Couldn't promote it at NYCC etc. This definitely tracked the movie down.

It just looked bad: Shrug to each their own.  The trailer just looked like  to me, figured i'd skip it and wait to see it on D+.

**********

What is laughable are the people in here talking about how Disney is going bankrupt because of their films.  Film doesn't even make up 10% of their media LINE, let alone the entire company.  (The profit on the DME segment was more than double the entire GROSS of their theatrical unit (Disney splits theatrical revenue 55-45 with AMC etc. (this varies by country and by film, but it's the standard)  The company saw revenue jump 23% from 2021 to 2022.  It's an $82 BILLION dollar a year company.  

Yeet 

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:35 PM, N7 M31 said:

I could give you evidence from a different perspective. But I truly believe it wouldn't make a difference to you.  Some of your points why the movies are failing are 100% true based on fact , others not so much. You do you @VintageComics

Evidence is the only thing that makes a difference to anyone, and you SHOULD give evidence from a different perspective if you have it. 

Why even bring it up if you're not going to share it? 

 

[1950's war comics]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:58 AM, paqart said:

Arg. I just spent two hours writing a reply to this but it vanished when I posted it. There is no way I am going to try and recreate the post. The bottom line is that there are a number of ways to conceive of "value" at a corporation. It isn't just "profit" "money," or "net sales." It can also be tax advantages, better terms on a deal, reduced operating expenses, less legal exposure, fewer regulatory hassles, and on and on. On top of all that, there is this value: supporting causes that align well with the personalities of those in charge. We see this in businesses owned by religious people, who keep the doors closed on Saturday (Jewish) or Sunday (Christian). There are many other causes and corporations run the gamut of what they support.

There are plenty of examples from the world of business where businesses collectively make bad decisions, or when executives go off on their own and do things that are bad for business. Sometimes they do things that are good for business but bad for their image. Sometimes its bad for business but good for their image. With ESG, it's bad for business and image among some customers, and good for both with others. The bad for both group appears many times larger than the good for both crowd, but the good for both crowd is ideologically aligned with the executives that make decisions. That clouds their thinking because they see a real advantage from that group.

we all would have enjoyed reading that post that disappeared on you .. i hate when that happens, all of your recent long in depth posts are intellectually brilliant by the way ! on par with some of the famous, top critical thinkers i have seen on Youtube

[JC25427N]

If your post disappears when you try to submit you can usually hit ctrl-Z inside the text box to bring it back

[TupennyConan]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:48 PM, JC25427N said:

If your post disappears when you try to submit you can usually hit ctrl-Z inside the text box to bring it back

This is one hell of a post. Very helpful. Thank you oh wise Boardie!