THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Hulksdaddy1]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:20 PM, jaybuck43 said:

I wonder how many of the women who went to these movies were there because their husband/boyfriend/male friend dragged them there? I know I've dragged my wife a few times.

Also, I believe somewhere earlier in this thread it was posted that 65% of viewers for The Marvels opening weekend were male.

 

[VintageComics]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

The numbers LEAN more male, they are not dominated.  Sure, I don't think ANYONE would argue that superhero audiences skew or lean younger and more male.  BUT the point here is to push back on your comment that women have NO INTEREST in these movies.  (I believe you called it trying to fit a square peg in a round hole).

I obviously jumped the gun when I used the word NO, because even my own daughters enjoyed the MCU movies. @Zonker even made the point in the Barbie thread and I acknowledged that sometimes I exaggerate my points to make a point but the gist of the point stands even if the exact numbers don't. 

I'm willing to acknowledge that. 

I should have said women have FAR LESS INTEREST than men, and yes, Disney tried to fit square pegs into round holes (or rather, tried to fit a round hole over a square peg) by catering to women to a far greater degree than they did to men, and THIS is the reason that the box office is faltering. 

The perfect parallel is women's sports vs men's sports. 

People don't want to watch the WNBA in the same numbers they want to watch the NBA and the reason is obvious:

Men are faster, stronger, jump higher and more aggressive and men are attracted to these things while women are not.

Women may even be better shooters, because they are more disciplined but Ray Allen, who is one of the best shooters in the history of the sport never got nearly as much publicity as Vince Carter because Ray Allen was like Hawkeye while Vince Carter was Thor. 

Now try to argue to me that Hawkeye is a better seller than Thor? 

Or that the WNBA is just as popular as the NBA.

Or that losing the male market (and be extension the female market that came along with that male market) didn't make a sizeable difference?

Ugh.

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Why do you immediately jump that the women were dragged by their spouse? What about men dragged their spouse?  I can think of at least one female boardie who probably had to drag her spouse to see some of these films.

For the very reason that graph proves:

There are MORE MEN GOING TO MCU MOVIES THAN WOMEN, and so logically more men will drag women, than women will drag me to the movies. 

Remember how everyone keeps telling me singular anecdotes aren't evidence? Yeah, that rule applies here too.

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

Fatigue (this is what, the 33rd Marvel film) in 60 years Bond (the second largest cinematic franchise i can think of off the top of my head) has had 25 official films.  Marvel did almost 10 more in 1/6th the time.  No franchise can sustain an audience across THAT many films it's going to wear them out.

Effort: It used to be you went to the theater, watched the movie, and boom you were golden.  Now you needed to watch this Doctor Strange film, and then also know about what happened on the Disney+ Show Wandavision to have any idea whats going on in the latest Spider-Man film.  That's going to turn off your casual viewer.  

Story: This one kinda builds off the fatigue aspect.  From Iron Man to Avengers Endgame, there was a major overarching, planned story.  It was good. You wanted to see the next marvel movie because you wanted to see the next piece in the puzzle.  Since then... these are just kinda stand alone films.  They exist.  They're FINE (in some cases, some are just dreck, looking at you Eternals) but they aren't going anywhere.  So... the more casual viewers are like "what's my incentive to go see it".

Star power: Why did RDJ get paid so much money?  Cause he's a huge star that people like.   Then he rubbed off on the other actors and built them up.  Now Hemsworth, Evens, Ruffelo, etc are all on pretty equal footing.  Is Brie Larson a draw the same way Scarlett Johanson is?  I don't think so.

Competition: Let's be honest, 2020 changed consumption habits.  People STILL do not go back to the theaters in the same numbers they did pre-2020.  We averaged 11 billion a year from 2015-2019, now we'll be lucky to break 9 billion this year (i'm tracking at about 8.7 billion).  People liked being able to just stream at home.  I would not be at all surprised at a lot of your casuals (especially female) being like "O cool, that'll be fun to watch on a crappy night in" or something like that.  

Grounded to cosmic:  For the most part, the MCU has been relatively grounded.  It wasn't until the last film that we got into things like time travel etc.  Yes it was "Thor's from Asgard" and "Outer Space with the Guardians"... but the films and plots remained grounded.  It wasn't until Endgame that we start introducing crazy concepts like time travel (still didn't like that Dues Ex).  Now poop is popping off. We've got multiverse theory, and variants and all these crazy things.  People are starting to roll their eyes at it and say "too far fetched fantasy for me".  

I will agree that fatigue is a problem but fatigue is secondary. 

If you miss your target market, excelling at these points can make a mediocre movie great and people will still see it.

But if you miss your target market AND you have these problems, you're done. 

You can all of these points accomplish a 10 / 10 and if you miss your audience it's all going to the trashcan. 

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

What is laughable are the people in here talking about how Disney is going bankrupt because of their films.  Film doesn't even make up 10% of their media LINE, let alone the entire company.  (The profit on the DME segment was more than double the entire GROSS of their theatrical unit (Disney splits theatrical revenue 55-45 with AMC etc. (this varies by country and by film, but it's the standard)  The company saw revenue jump 23% from 2021 to 2022.  It's an $82 BILLION dollar a year company.

Nobody stated, or better said MEANT that Disney is going bankrupt because of the MCU. Everyone knows it's not the entire portfolio.

When people say "Disney" is having trouble in an MCU thread, they MEAN "Disney's MCU wing is having trouble. It's just shorthand for Disney's MCU.

So, jots and tittles aside, the point still holds that Disney missed the mark. Even you have admitted it has. 

Disney itself has now admitted it lost it's focus. 

What did Disney admit to?

Straying from their strong IP.

That's code for the ESG thing didn't work out. 

-----------------------------------

Did you want to touch on the ESG thing? Because John's point about Universal doing well while Disney not doing so well is a good example of that.

[Bosco685]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:38 PM, jaybuck43 said:

What is laughable are the people in here talking about how Disney is going bankrupt because of their films. 

Did that come up in this thread? It got lost in a lot of other discussion, so I missed it.

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:05 PM, Bosco685 said:

Did that come up in this thread? It got lost in a lot of other discussion, so I missed it.

Heavily insinuated if not leaned toward due to ambiguous language.  I’m on a train so I do not have the patience to go through the last fifty pages to find and quote others. 
 

ooopsie I said I am on a train.  

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:58 PM, TupennyConan said:

This is one hell of a post. Very helpful. Thank you oh wise Boardie! 

I just refresh the screen and many times it’s saved in the cache and automatically reappears. 

[Bosco685]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:08 PM, Buzzetta said:

Heavily insinuated if not leaned toward due to ambiguous language.  I’m on a train so I do not have the patience to go through the last fifty pages to find and quote others. 
 

ooopsie I said I am on a train.  

Thanks brother. I missed that.

Bob Iger is definitely not going to accept losing moving forward. Especially if all the rumors are true about later resale value. And it is clear his heavy hand is coming down on the MCU excessively dispersed roadmap. So assuming this multi-billion dollar franchise didn't catch his attention would be wildly myopic. And this is more than one movie missing targets that previously was never a concern.

But no. One movie will not break this entertainment behemoth. But a senior executive head has rolled already that was there since the beginning.

Inside Victoria Alonso’s Shocking Exit From Marvel Studios

Edited November 14, 2023 by Bosco685

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:16 AM, Artboy99 said:

it would be nice if the chat could be about the movie. I returned to this thread to see what others have thought about the movie and it was very disappointing to see 6 pages of stuff that turned out to not be about The Marvels. Oh well.

Well when the movie is this bad what else is there to talk about?

No good speculation on what happens next for the MCU, and unfortunately that is the new norm.   

Another dud in the books.  I wish we all could be talking about how good it was instead we just get new memes on the cringe musical score from this movie mixed in with the cats.

Edited November 14, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[Cat]

On 11/15/2023 at 4:07 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

MCU has never told stories of:

X-Men

FF

Doctor Doom

Magneto

Silver Surfer

Galactus.

Just Doctor Doom with Galactus you have the new Loki and Thanos.

Now I do agree FF will not be as well received as the Avengers, but the X-Men can make billions over 10-15 years with all their Heroes and Villains.  Mix in the Silver Surfer and Galactus becoming the 10-15 year climax villain and you have a couple billion right there to make.

 

 

Sure the FF might not be as well received as the Avengers. But there was no reason for the Avengers to be received as well as they were anyway in the first place. They were barely known characters for the most part, obscure to a large proportion, and there was no reason to think their films would be a success, let alone a juggernaut. I still remember reading for the first time the plan was to do individual character movies leading up to an Avengers flick. 

I rolled my eyes and went "Sure. Sound's great, but it'll never happen." and well. Here we are. I see no reason that same magic couldn't work for the FF. How many people remember their other films? Doesn't sound like many do, so I daresay a large part of the audience are coming into this fresh. I honestly think it has potential. It's all about the tone. And that's where I'm most worried. 

On 11/15/2023 at 6:23 AM, Bosco685 said:

Lower than Dark Phoenix? Now there's indifference. 

[Bosco685]

Compared to the days when MCU films got rolling and were bringing in 4.0-6.0 (+) in revenue...

...Phase IV and V have been quite mixed.

That's most probably what folks are reacting to. The drop down in consistent high box office results leading to quality and saturation concerns.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:12 PM, Bosco685 said:

Thanks brother. I missed that.

Bob Iger is definitely not going to accept losing moving forward. Especially if all the rumors are true about later resale value. And it is clear his heavy hand is coming down on the MCU excessively dispersed roadmap. So assuming this multi-billion dollar franchise didn't catch his attention would be wildly myopic. And this is more than one movie missing targets that previously was never a concern.

But no. One movie will not break this entertainment behemoth. But a senior executive head has rolled already that was there since the beginning.

Inside Victoria Alonso’s Shocking Exit From Marvel Studios

Serious question.

In your opinion how much of the blame lands on Iger and Fiege?

I am hopeful that they knew this movie was going to bomb ahead of time, and none of this is a total shock to the company.  However, what steps are in motion so that the roller-coaster of fun can start back up the hill again.

Sadly I feel most people don't trust Disney/MCU/Star Wars right now, and most wont be blindly going to the see their movies prior to hearing it is good first.

[Bosco685]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:28 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Serious question.

In your opinion how much of the blame lands on Iger and Fiege?

I am hopeful that they knew this movie was going to bomb ahead of time, and none of this is a total shock to the company.  However, what steps are in motion so that the roller-coaster of fun can start back up the hill again.

Sadly I feel most people don't trust Disney/MCU/Star Wars right now, and most wont be blindly going to the see their movies prior to hearing it is good first.

I have a feeling Chapek wanted Star Wars and Marvel content to flood the market, assuming moviegoers and streaming subscribers wanting all this coming at them hot and heavy. Never taking into consideration over-saturation to the point it impacted production quality and consumer interest.

But Iger doesn't get off the hook. As his $71.3 Billion purchase of Fox Studios to fill the Disney+ pipes assumed massive revenue from subscribers. Not accounting for how much that expense would drag on as operational expenses for years.

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:27 PM, Cat said:

Sure the FF might not be as well received as the Avengers. But there was no reason for the Avengers to be received as well as they were anyway in the first place. They were barely known characters for the most part, obscure to a large proportion, and there was no reason to think their films would be a success, let alone a juggernaut. I still remember reading for the first time the plan was to do individual character movies leading up to an Avengers flick. 

I rolled my eyes and went "Sure. Sound's great, but it'll never happen." and well. Here we are. I see no reason that same magic couldn't work for the FF. How many people remember their other films? Doesn't sound like many do, so I daresay a large part of the audience are coming into this fresh. I honestly think it has potential. It's all about the tone. And that's where I'm most worried. 

Lower than Dark Phoenix? Now there's indifference. 

Oh I am with you (isnt it nice we finally agree on something? ), and I think they can do well with the FF, just X-Men will probably be more relatable to the vast audience and a bigger draw than the FF.

Now where I think we both for sure agree is if they do FF right and mix in Dr. Doom (villain 1A) and Galactus (villain 1B) and combo that with X-men and Magneto then you easily have 10-15 years of magic if done right.  Plus even a X-Men vs Avengers movie.  I just think when people say their are out of ideas that's silly you know. 

 

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:32 PM, Bosco685 said:

I have a feeling Chapek wanted Star Wars and Marvel content to flood the market, assuming moviegoers and streaming subscribers wanting all this coming at them hot and heavy. Never taking into consideration over-saturation to the point it impacted production quality and consumer interest.

But Iger doesn't get off the hook. As his $71.3 Billion purchase of Fox Studios to fill the Disney+ pipes assumed massive revenue from subscribers. Not accounting for how much that expense would drag on as operational expenses for years.

Yes I agree, I just again hope this movie bombing is the last straw that forces them to course correct.

I am just over anything Kang, and just want to see the character just go away.

[WeR138]

On 11/14/2023 at 2:59 PM, Hulksdaddy1 said:

I wonder how many of the women who went to these movies were there because their husband/boyfriend/male friend dragged them there? I know I've dragged my wife a few times.

Also, I believe somewhere earlier in this thread it was posted that 65% of viewers for The Marvels opening weekend were male.

 

My wife and 2 daughters were going with me occasionally.  Now that I stopped going to the theatre to view Marvel "product", they have no interest in it.

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:12 PM, Bosco685 said:

Thanks brother. I missed that.

Bob Iger is definitely not going to accept losing moving forward. Especially if all the rumors are true about later resale value. And it is clear his heavy hand is coming down on the MCU excessively dispersed roadmap. So assuming this multi-billion dollar franchise didn't catch his attention would be wildly myopic. And this is more than one movie missing targets that previously was never a concern.

But no. One movie will not break this entertainment behemoth. But a senior executive head has rolled already that was there since the beginning.

Inside Victoria Alonso’s Shocking Exit From Marvel Studios

Funny you mention the resale value.  It is something that I have been thinking of lately.

There is a podcast that Jay and I both listen to where they have been talking about the WWE acquisition by Endeavor.   In summary, who is throwing money at these companies to buy them?  It is starting to look almost like a ponzi scheme where "someone" is going to be left to hold the bag.

Endeavor is currently exploring "strategic alternatives" regarding their perceived value for what some to believe a possible sale or opportunity to take the company private.   This is after they just "paid" out $9.3 Billion for the WWE.   Some believe that the WWE purchase was made to present a stronger portfolio and pad the price of Endeavor (WWE and UFC) for a future sale to, and this is speculation, the Saudis.

Endeavor would welcome a quick flip to pay off creditors and run home happy leaving the Saudis or someone else holding a company that cannot sustain itself at the value of whatever the next sale will be.  

If the WWE was worth (and I use that term loosely) $9.3 billion then what would the asking price for Disney be?   Who is coming up with that?   If they buy it, would they sell off certain assets to other entities?  Is such a business model sustainable over the next ten to twenty years ?

It's been a long day... 

[N7 M31]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:40 PM, VintageComics said:

Evidence is the only thing that makes a difference to anyone, and you SHOULD give evidence from a different perspective if you have it. 

Why even bring it up if you're not going to share it? 

 

I have a family member who is visiting from India , he's in his early 20's and comes from a city with over 14 million people . We both are huge fans of the superhero genre and I asked him how do you consume the content D+?  theatres? netflix?. He responded with a hard NO and said "we just download everything now for free and share amongst friends". 

Is this hard evidence? probably not at the moment . is this hurting the MCU and other movie worldwide box office numbers? probably 

[Mr Sneeze]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:36 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Oh I am with you (isnt it nice we finally agree on something? ), and I think they can do well with the FF, just X-Men will probably be more relatable to the vast audience and a bigger draw than the FF.

Now where I think we both for sure agree is if they do FF right and mix in Dr. Doom (villain 1A) and Galactus (villain 1B) and combo that with X-men and Magneto then you easily have 10-15 years of magic if done right.  Plus even a X-Men vs Avengers movie.  I just think when people say their are out of ideas that's silly you know. 

 

I would agree if you mean a good movie every couple of years instead of three mehs in the same span.

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:27 PM, Cat said:

Sure the FF might not be as well received as the Avengers. But there was no reason for the Avengers to be received as well as they were anyway in the first place. They were barely known characters for the most part, obscure to a large proportion, and there was no reason to think their films would be a success, let alone a juggernaut. I still remember reading for the first time the plan was to do individual character movies leading up to an Avengers flick. 

I rolled my eyes and went "Sure. Sound's great, but it'll never happen." and well. Here we are. I see no reason that same magic couldn't work for the FF. How many people remember their other films? Doesn't sound like many do, so I daresay a large part of the audience are coming into this fresh. I honestly think it has potential. It's all about the tone. And that's where I'm most worried. 

Lower than Dark Phoenix? Now there's indifference. 

I said the same.  I had zero interest in the comic book Thor.  My interest in the property has rested with Hiddleston and Hemsworth.  Marvel has made magic out of a lot of characters I never really cared about with the Guardians of the Galaxy being first and foremost in my mind.  

[Bosco685]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:41 PM, Buzzetta said:

Funny you mention the resale value.  It is something that I have been thinking of lately.

Apple in talks to purchase Disney at some point so Iger can exit out on a high note keeps coming up. A lot of chatter.

Wild to hear. But then you think he is only back for 2 years. He wants his money as high as it can go for final retirement. And his legacy to be a memorable one (which is why he wouldn't let Chapek have his office).

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:43 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

I would agree if you mean a good movie every couple of years instead of three mehs in the same span.

I think they are going to just go back to 2 MCU movies a year, and that right away will have a world of difference in quality control.

Less sometimes will make you more.