Anyone else over the Promise Collection? 6 6

[jimjum12]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:06 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I know what you mean; I don't think covers are included in the page quality designation. One would hope that tanning of the covers would be mentioned in the graders' notes.

The cover stock on a given book may age differently than the newsprint used for that book, so I suppose you could have a book with OWL 10 pages and tanning inside the covers. I've had some Dells with fairly nice pages and VERY dark tanning on the inside covers. I'm  not exactly sure why that happens.

Probably due to a combo of temp and humidity. Personally I'd rather have a book with a supple white cover and light cream pages... and I like raw books. My most recent gig was at a warehouse with no climate control, still common to this day. It can be negative 10 in the winter and 110 in the summer. Not ideal for long term paper storage. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[tth2]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:20 AM, jimjum12 said:

I must warn you that I am also a "coinee"

Edited January 14, 2022 by tth2

[tth2]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:06 AM, atomised said:

Hi, my name is Peter and I buy and like Promise Collection books.

It's pretty remarkable how a small minority of boardies has done such a good job of stigmatizing the Promise books that people almost seem to be sheepish-to-embarrassed to admit they like/own them. 

[atomised]

On 1/13/2022 at 8:44 PM, tth2 said:

It's pretty remarkable how a small minority of boardies has done such a good job of stigmatizing the Promise books that people almost seem to be sheepish-to-embarrassed to admit they like/own them. 

Surprises me too.  It's nonsense that crypto people and other speculative buyers are buying Promise books. Comic collectors are.  

[Cat-Man_America]

On 1/13/2022 at 10:44 PM, tth2 said:

It's pretty remarkable how a small minority of boardies has done such a good job of stigmatizing the Promise books that people almost seem to be sheepish-to-embarrassed to admit they like/own them. 

It could be that some folks are just fearful that sacred cash-cows, especially other top prime cuts there's less beef with, will end up on the endangered species list.  

Conversely, one could always crack out and resubmit books for possible grade bumping, but that's an added risk with pedigree books.  In this environment resubmission only works for submissive types with lots of extra cash to throw around.  

I prefer to take a stein half-full approach.  That there'll be an increased reverence for older labels and other respected pedigree books in the wake of more contentious views surrounding some of the Promise Collection grading.  Sheepishness notwithstanding, no one pulls the wool over most big ticket bidder's eyes. 

On 1/13/2022 at 11:10 PM, atomised said:

Surprises me too.  It's nonsense that crypto people and other speculative buyers are buying Promise books. Comic collectors are.  

Tales from the Crypto People sounds like a title Bill Gaines would've rejected.

[blackterror]

Zosocane I appreciate where you are coming from - no disrespect - but I don't share your opinion of the PL 17 Promise Copy.  You said,  "The PL 17 is my favorite.  It is ... indescribable.  This is why we collect, why we hunt, why we love the hobby."   

This is a thread that challenges the Promise books - and so I have to believe you are coming to their defense by using the the PL 17 as an example.  Which couldn't help but bug me - as this is one of the Promise Collection books that got special treatment.   It bugged me the moment I saw that book in a 9.6 case and dubbed the best copy - when the Metro copy that sold back in 2019 - from what they dubbed "The Phantom Lady Collection" - is forever etched in my brain.  And no - I don't own it.

To me - the Promise PL is not the best copy of that book - even though the label says it is and that's why I don't gush over the Promise books - many of them do seem to get a grading pass.  Instead of  gushing over the Promise copy - I feel like we should still be gushing over that CGC 9.4 copy Metropolis sold.  Just look at it in my attached image.

Here is a bit of the copy from their auction at the time ... "When we received this book from its consignor our jaws hit the floor as we knew we had stumbled upon a truly special comic. Glowing yellows and flesh tones dominate the QES Certified cover, as the Baker illustration has never looked better. In all honesty, there was a discussion at our offices as to whether this book would attract more heat at auction than an Action #1, due to its scarcity, cult stature, and stellar condition."

The Promise copy has a distracting cover miss-wrap with the back cover coming around to be visible on the front  - the extra white on the lower spine is distracting to my eye on the lower half of the book.  The Promise copy also has an obvious abrasion on the spine by the world LADY. and the Promise copy appears to have a bit of an impacted bottom staple ... and or it shows some wear.  Of course CGC doesn't note it.   The Promise copy also appears to have a bit of a dust shadow on the top outer edge of the cover.  The pencil marking on the Promise Copy may not factor into the grade - but the Metro copy has no marking and is clean as a whistle with what appears to be deeper, fresher and more intense color.  Anyway - go figure.  They are both nice books - but the Promise Copy doesn't do as much for me - because I've seen the Metro copy. 

I don't find the Promise copy of PL 17 to be indescribable - I have a lot to say about it.  And this isn't why I collect, hunt, and love the hobby.  It actually makes me a little frustrated when some books get what appears to be a grade bump. I have have seen many beautiful Promise books graded fairly for sure, but I have also seen many Promise books graded higher than they should have been.  

Again forgive me Zosocane - if all you were saying was  PL 17 is a book you love and you really enjoyed seeing the Promise Copy.  I'm certainly not attacking you  - but if you were saying - you can't get over the Promise books because there is nothing else like them - I disagree and I think it's important that a variety of opinions be heard.

Perhaps the most impressive thing about the Promise Collection to me is first and foremost the size and scope of it.  Excelsior ...

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by blackterror

[Flex Mentallo]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:52 AM, jimjum12 said:

To me, the biggest hole in the PQ facade is when a book receives White, yet the inside cover is light tan to cream.

I bought a couple of raw high grade books on these boards and returned them because the interior covers were dark brown, though they did have nice pages, and the covers were extremely glossy with great eye appeal. But to me, that problem with the interior covers killed the books. Happily the seller accepted the return without a quibble.Sometime later I saw that the same copies had been CGC graded, and I was astonished to see that they had been graded 8.5. Still cant get my head around this!

 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Flex Mentallo

[LearnedHand]

On 1/14/2022 at 3:51 AM, blackterror said:

Zosocane I appreciate where you are coming from - no disrespect - but I don't share your opinion of the PL 17 Promise Copy.  You said,  "The PL 17 is my favorite.  It is ... indescribable.  This is why we collect, why we hunt, why we love the hobby."   

This is a thread that challenges the Promise books - and so I have to believe you are coming to their defense by using the the PL 17 as an example.  Which couldn't help but bug me - as this is one of the Promise Collection books that got special treatment.   It bugged me the moment I saw that book in a 9.6 case and dubbed the best copy - when the Metro copy that sold back in 2019 - from what they dubbed "The Phantom Lady Collection" - is forever etched in my brain.  And no - I don't own it.

To me - the Promise PL is not the best copy of that book - even though the label says it is and that's why I don't gush over the Promise books - many of them do seem to get a grading pass.  Instead of  gushing over the Promise copy - I feel like we should still be gushing over that CGC 9.4 copy Metropolis sold.  Just looke at it in my attached image.

Here is a bit of the copy from their auction at the time ... "When we received this book from its consignor our jaws hit the floor as we knew we had stumbled upon a truly special comic. Glowing yellows and flesh tones dominate the QES Certified cover, as the Baker illustration has never looked better. In all honesty, there was a discussion at our offices as to whether this book would attract more heat at auction than an Action #1, due to its scarcity, cult stature, and stellar condition."

The Promise copy has a distracting cover miss-wrap with the back cover coming around to be visible on the front  - the extra white on the lower spine is distracting to my eye on the lower half of the book.  The Promise copy also has an obvious abrasion on the spine by the world LADY. and the Promise copy appears to have a bit of an impacted bottom staple ... and or it shows some wear.  Of course CGC doesn't note it.   The Promise copy also appears to have a bit of a dust shadow on the top outer edge of the cover.  The pencil marking on the Promise Copy may not factor into the grade - but the Metro copy has no marking and is clean as a whistle with what appears to be deeper, fresher and more intense color.  Anyway - go figure.  They are both nice books - but the Promise Copy doesn't do as much for me - because I've seen the Metro copy. 

I don't find the Promise copy of PL 17 to be indescribable - I have a lot to say about it.  And this isn't why I collect, hunt, and love the hobby.  It actually makes me a little frustrated when some books get what appears to be a grade bump. I have have seen many beautiful Promise books graded fairly for sure, but I have also seen many Promise books graded higher than they should have been.  In my opinion stand alone as the best copy.   

Again forgive me Zosocane - if all you were saying was that the PL 17 is a book you love and you really enjoyed seeing the Promise Copy.  I'm certainly not attacking you  - but if you were saying - you can't get over the Promise books because there is nothing else like them - I disagree and I think it's important that a variety of opinions be heard.

Perhaps the most impressive thing about the Promise Collection to me is first and foremost the size and scope of it.  Excelsior ...

 

 

So ... we're assuming a book's covers tell the whole story ... OK; that may be true.  

And, are we also taking the effusive Metro marketing statements as evidence of book condition ... hmmm......

 

My favorite post in this entire thread, which, of course, is one person's opinion and reaction to the Promise collection ... but undoubtedly echoes (obviously to varying degrees) a widespread reaction to this collection from day 1, when examples were even posted raw and unpressed; and before perceived "gift grades" eclipsed, for some, the collection's virtues.   From Zosocane:

"I will never get over the Promise books.  Many of the books from the first few auctions were total face-melters, especially the Timelys which we've never seen (at least I haven't) in those grades.  Tons of white-pager 9.4s, 9.6s and 9.8s on GA books we just never see come to market.  Overgraded and manipulated with a press?  Ok.  Knock it down a grade or two, these are still killer books, and you have to ask whether we will see anything like this again.  Then there is the underlying story, which is almost up there with Ms. Okajima's. 

The PL 17 is my favorite.  It is ... indescribable.  This is why we collect, why we hunt, why we love the hobby."

 

[William-James88]

There's another thing that kind of ticks me off. I highly doubt that the prices these books are sold at are due to the books themselves. Did the random Master Comics 9.0 copies sell 3 times guide simply because they don't come on the market much or because they are part of the Promise collection? Something to me spells out yes. I get the 9.4s and up selling higher, those are ridiculously rare and the market price can never be determined until it goes up for auction. But for 9.0? It's high grade, sure, but not without precedented sales. I ask because I have 9.0s from the GA era of the same books found in the Promise collection. If I send them to Heritage would I make 3 times guide when I bought them for guide 2 years ago?

What I mean is, I get buying a high grade book because it is high grade and beautiful. But I don't see what this pedigree name brings in value on it's own. D copies don't, neither does Cookeville, and many others. It's not like this pedigree means this book is nicer than others in it's grade, like the church books do. You guys get what I mean right? 

OR, am I wrong about all this and this collection brought out some hungry people that want high grade GA, and thus a 9.0 I put online would also sell for the same prices?

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:15 PM, William-James88 said:

There's another thing that kind of ticks me off. I highly doubt that the prices these books are sold at are due to the books themselves. Did the random Master Comics 9.0 copies sell 3 times guide simply because they don't come on the market much or because they are part of the Promise collection? Something to me spells out yes. I get the 9.4s and up selling higher, those are ridiculously rare and the market price can never be determined until it goes up for auction. But for 9.0? It's high grade, sure, but not without precedented sales. I ask because I have 9.0s from the GA era of the same books found in the Promise collection. If I send them to Heritage would I make 3 times guide when I bought them for guide 2 years ago?

What I mean is, I get buying a high grade book because it is high grade and beautiful. But I don't see what this pedigree name brings in value on it's own. D copies don't, neither does Cookeville, and many others. It's not like this pedigree means this book is nicer than others in it's grade, like the church books do. You guys get what I mean right? 

OR, am I wrong about all this and this collection brought out some hungry people that want high grade GA, and thus a 9.0 I put online would also sell for the same prices?

It is like the Okajima Pedigree:  The backstory on the collection is boosting the prices on these books.

[William-James88]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

It is like the Okajima Pedigree:  The backstory on the collection is boosting the prices on these books.

I don't even know the backstory. You think everyone bidding (and winning) knows it? 

[tth2]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:15 PM, William-James88 said:

Did the random Master Comics 9.0 copies sell 3 times guide simply because they don't come on the market much or because they are part of the Promise collection?

Some people in this hobby have OCD. 

[sfcityduck]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:28 PM, William-James88 said:

I don't even know the backstory. You think everyone bidding (and winning) knows it? 

Yes.  Here's what Matt Nelson of CGC and Brian Weidman of Heritage had to say in the hype interview that came out on Youtube prior to the first auction:

Quote

 

Deno: “This, this to me, is a hybrid between the quality and conditionwise of the Mile High and then the emotional story aspect of the Okajima.”

Matt: [Pointing and interjecting] “YES!” 

…

Matt:  “You nailed it!  That’s perfect.  That explains the dual impact of this collection.  You know, because you’re right, the Okajima just recently, the past couple few years, the price, the multiples paid for those have exploded!  And its due to the story and it’s so cool to see these collections finally being  recognized for something, they always were, but the story, I don’t know, magnifies it.”

Brian: “It does! It absolutely does!”

Matt: “It’s the Mile High collection, almost, haha, with a story similar to the Okajima.  And I think another interesting angle to it is this is unique in that somebody asked somebody else to be a curator or a protector or savior of their comic collection in, like, 1950.  And so that is really unique because he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.  He held it the whole time.  It was more important to him to hold that promise than cash in and get the books, you know, within his lifetime.  Because he was there with his brother 70 years, 60 something years ago, and went through that horrible thing with him and left knowing that promise was that important, you know.”

…

Matt: “These books will be vying for the Mile High’s for the top stop.  And also the story, of course, is even better than the Mile High’s.”

Brian: “Right! [nods vigorously]”

 

 

[lou_fine]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:53 PM, sfcityduck said:

Matt: “It’s the Mile High collection, almost, haha, with a story similar to the Okajima.  

That's absolutely nothing but pure unadulterated misleading hype to even put the Promise Collection books in the same light as the Edgar Church Mile High collection, especially when they are light years apart in terms of the content quality of the books (i.e. title wise) that's in each of the collection.  

Now, if they had said that it's similar to the Davis Crippen or the Big Apple pedigree collections, with a story similar to the Okajima, that would have been a lot more accurate.  

Then again, I guess all of us here know exactly why they went with the Edgar Church Mile High connection instead.  

Edited January 25, 2022 by lou_fine

[comicstock]

Was a complete list of the 5,000 or so Promise Collection books ever revealed?

[William-James88]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:26 AM, lou_fine said:

Now, if they had said that it's similar to the Davis Crippen or the Big Apple pedigree collections, with a story similar to the Okajima, that would have been a lot more accurate.  

In terms of content and quality, I do find it very similar to the Davis Crippen collection, though higher grade on average (I think). 

[adamstrange]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:57 AM, comicstock said:

Was a complete list of the 5,000 or so Promise Collection books ever revealed?

Nope.  They are still dribbling the books out a few at a time.

[buttock]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:15 PM, William-James88 said:

There's another thing that kind of ticks me off. I highly doubt that the prices these books are sold at are due to the books themselves. Did the random Master Comics 9.0 copies sell 3 times guide simply because they don't come on the market much or because they are part of the Promise collection? Something to me spells out yes. I get the 9.4s and up selling higher, those are ridiculously rare and the market price can never be determined until it goes up for auction. But for 9.0? It's high grade, sure, but not without precedented sales. I ask because I have 9.0s from the GA era of the same books found in the Promise collection. If I send them to Heritage would I make 3 times guide when I bought them for guide 2 years ago?

What I mean is, I get buying a high grade book because it is high grade and beautiful. But I don't see what this pedigree name brings in value on it's own. D copies don't, neither does Cookeville, and many others. It's not like this pedigree means this book is nicer than others in it's grade, like the church books do. You guys get what I mean right? 

OR, am I wrong about all this and this collection brought out some hungry people that want high grade GA, and thus a 9.0 I put online would also sell for the same prices?

There are a lot of books in this collection that don't show up in grade, almost ever.  There was a copy of Manhunt 11 that is an ok cover, and only an 8.5.  But it was the only graded copy, and virtually never seen so it went for $3500.  At a dealer's booth it's probably $5-600.  Is that because someone is trying to get the nicest run of Manhunt?  Only buying the top census books as an investment?  Someone who's wanted the damn thing for 2 decades and never seen one that was adequate so they threw caution to the wind?  Or someone buying solely on spec?  Who knows, but what I can say is that there are a number of reasons out there for such a strange price to manifest at auction.  I've seen this happen enough times in the past where people were astonished at a price and thought, surely that can't be real, only to find out personally from the buyer why it happened.  

[Robot Man]

On 1/25/2022 at 5:26 AM, William-James88 said:

In terms of content and quality, I do find it very similar to the Davis Crippen collection, though higher grade on average (I think). 

Although it didn’t run as long, I find a little more like the San Francisco collection. Similar, (although never really proven story). Long runs of most all the big companies and in, for the most part, super high grade. The difference was it was slowly released with little fanfare, grade manipulating or CGC grading.

I remember it being slowly unloaded on the West Coast. Whispered about. First time. I held some raw copies in my hand, I was blown away. Second only to the Church books by a sliver at the time.

Crippen, although much larger and running longer, just doesn’t have the quality overall. Cool back story though and I am happy to have quite a few in my collection. 

[Robot Man]

On 1/25/2022 at 10:31 AM, buttock said:

There are a lot of books in this collection that don't show up in grade, almost ever.  There was a copy of Manhunt 11 that is an ok cover, and only an 8.5.  But it was the only graded copy, and virtually never seen so it went for $3500.  At a dealer's booth it's probably $5-600.  Is that because someone is trying to get the nicest run of Manhunt?  Only buying the top census books as an investment?  Someone who's wanted the damn thing for 2 decades and never seen one that was adequate so they threw caution to the wind?  Or someone buying solely on spec?  Who knows, but what I can say is that there are a number of reasons out there for such a strange price to manifest at auction.  I've seen this happen enough times in the past where people were astonished at a price and thought, surely that can't be real, only to find out personally from the buyer why it happened.  

I believe there is a great bit of truth to that. Coupled with the fact that many people believe this might be the last big quality collection of OO GA to ever be unearthed. Who knows?