PGX on notating pressing on the label.....

[FFB]

As Daniel said in his post, this was a topic specifically discussed in SD months ago. I had a specific conversation with him about taking this very position in order to widen the gap between the two companies so this is nothing surprising at all. Why do you guys have to be so negative about this? I find it amazing sometimes how defensive you pro-pressing people are.

 

Since you brought up San Diego, let me ask you this question: when you spoke to Daniel in San Diego, did you find him to be particularly well-informed with regard to issues of pressing and restoration detection?

 

Because like Rip said, I don't think Daniel knows what he's doing when it comes to resto detection. He needs either to get someone in there who knows what he is doing, or needs to get formal training in place PRONTO before he makes a business decision to start calling books "pressed" when he can't even spot an amateur staple-swap job (true story).

 

Once he gets a professional on staff who actually has a history in the restoration aspect of the hobby, maybe then he'll get some credibility. But until then, all I think this new policy will amount to is a bunch of missed calls (where pro pressing gets past him) and false positives.

 

I think it is important for CGC to have competition and I think PGX is in the best position to be that competition, but I just cannot understand why Daniel doesn't address this weakest chink in his armor, so to speak. He does a good job of trying to address all other shortcomings (getting rid of the PVC inner well, for example, and switching to an inner well without hard 90 degree well walls to avoid SCS). Why ignore the biggest shortcoming of all?

[esquirecomics]

Fine, if I stepped over the line by including you too far into Darth's camp, my apologies. I do disagree with your opinion on the business angle. I think this is a brilliant move by PGX and frankly I hope it causes CGC to re-think its own position. At some point in time competition will emerge, whether it is PGX or some other company, and PGX is taking the right steps towards that way. It has a lot more work ahead of it and Rip has suggested some very good recommendations.

 

We can agree to disagree on the business angle. I just don't see dealers or collectors rushing(and paying!) to devalue their books by receiving pressing notations. It just doesn't seem realistic.

 

But you seem to be presuming that they will be submitting pressed books, or that PGX will start labelling books that are not pressed as pressed. First, one would think by announcing such a policy those who press books will not submit them for grading. Secondly, I would hope that by saying they have to be 100% positive the book has been pressed there will be few, if any, errors.

 

Of course competition will emerge, and yes, Rip's recommendations are excellent. I'd add one more...improve the aesthetics of the label. It looks very cheap, and far less professional than CGC's. Presentation is an important part of a slabbed comic.

 

No disagreement with me. PGX has improvements to make. I hope they listen to these suggestions.

[14 of spades]

if pressing gets noted on labels, those books will sell for less than their non-pressed counterparts.

 

such books may be viewed by some as "good deals" cause you can take the book, remove it from the holder, and send it for grading to CGC.

 

the book will have the pressed label removed, a nice CGC blue label added, and then you can flip it for $$$.

 

 

 

 

 

(this post is intentionally facetious...)

[esquirecomics]

As Daniel said in his post, this was a topic specifically discussed in SD months ago. I had a specific conversation with him about taking this very position in order to widen the gap between the two companies so this is nothing surprising at all. Why do you guys have to be so negative about this? I find it amazing sometimes how defensive you pro-pressing people are.

 

Since you brought up San Diego, let me ask you this question: when you spoke to Daniel in San Diego, did you find him to be particularly well-informed with regard to issues of pressing and restoration detection?

 

Because like Rip said, I don't think Daniel knows what he's doing when it comes to resto detection. He needs either to get someone in there who knows what he is doing, or needs to get formal training in place PRONTO before he makes a business decision to start calling books "pressed" when he can't even spot an amateur staple-swap job (true story).

 

Once he gets a professional on staff who actually has a history in the restoration aspect of the hobby, maybe then he'll get some credibility. But until then, all I think this new policy will amount to is a bunch of missed calls (where pro pressing gets past him) and false positives.

 

I think it is important for CGC to have competition and I think PGX is in the best position to be that competition, but I just cannot understand why Daniel doesn't address this weakest chink in his armor, so to speak. He does a good job of trying to address all other shortcomings (getting rid of the PVC inner well, for example, and switching to an inner well without hard 90 degree well walls to avoid SCS). Why ignore the biggest shortcoming of all?

 

Again, absolutely no disagreement from me. The best thing PGX could do for itself is hire someone either known to the community or with formal training to handle its restoration detection in order to enhance its credibility.

[shadroch]

Who,exactly,is going to be doing the restoration/pressing check for PGX?

 

FFB,

Since you seem to have some expertise in what pressing is and isn't,it would be nice if you could explain the process and perhaps give some hints to help detect it,especially thru a slab.

[lou_fine]

Because it is a LOT easier to detect other forms of resto than it is pressing (recent scandal notwithstanding, as there are many variables). Most of us have been handling comics for decades (just like SB and friends) and for the life of me i cannot detect pressing knowingly.I could be wrong and have no problem admitting it if so, but there will still be many pressed books without a pressed label and a few pressed books in an unpressed label. Prove me wrong.

 

This same argument of yours could also be applied with respect to the issue of trimming. As a result, are you saying that CGC should now allow trimming since they cannot detect this with 100% accuracy.

 

The ironic thing is that CGC's proposed scanning technology to help combat trimming is actually clearly more suited to catching pressing then it is to catching trimming.

[Harvey Dude]

The pressing is a step in the right direction. But as of now I don't know if pressing is a real problem with PGX considering CGC tends to get far more of the higher dollar books. Not to mention the problem with detection.

 

I think if I was PGX I would,

First hire a known name for restoration detection.

Second, give a list of all PGX books submitted by Elliot/Leder. Or at least track some of these books down to get them regraded. As many of us know many restored books submitted by T Leder were missed by PGX.

Third , come clean about the doctored scan that was given in regards to missing the trimmed ASM book.

Forth, clean up their act on pg quality. There are some really tan PGX books that aren't noted "tan" on the label

 

If PGX followed these steps I believe they would be TRUE competition against CGC and the hobby would be a better place for it.

 

Above all I am most disappointed in their handling of restoration detection.

They REALLY need to address this, even more so than CGC. They have issues with questionable sellers T. Leder/R. Elliot/M. Adams/

Known on e-bay as ponytailblunder/ma4pres/etc.

 

Feel free to pass this on to Mr. Patterson.

 

I agree with you on all points. PGX has made strides but if CGC misses restoration and trimming, I suspect PGX can do no better at the detection. They really do need a well known restoration expert on their payroll.

 

 

Edit. I guess Rip's comments reflect the opinion of many who have posted.

[FFB]

Who,exactly,is going to be doing the restoration/pressing check for PGX?

 

FFB,

Since you seem to have some expertise in what pressing is and isn't,it would be nice if you could explain the process and perhaps give some hints to help detect it,especially thru a slab.

 

When did I say that I knew how to detect a professional press job through a slab? I could no more detect one of Matt Nelson's jobs through a slab than I could sprout wings and fly. The book he pressed for me looked no different than it did before I sent it to him, except that a minor bend was gone. Anyone who says he can spot a Matt Nelson press job through a slab is flat out full of caca. It would be difficult to spot a BAD press job through a slab because the inner well holds the book flat, more or less. But to spot one of Matt's jobs? Please.

 

Outside of a slab, there are ways (some of which have been discussed ad nauseum) to tell if a book has been pressed amateurishly. Take a clothes iron to one of your books if you want to see an exaggerated example of what too much heat and humidity can do to paper. Or ask Ze-Man to re-post his pictures from when he tried it.

 

Personally, I think CGC is doing the right thing to downgrade amateurishly pressed books that have suffered damage as a result of pressing (instead of giving them a PLOD). If a press job damages a book, why would you give a book a "restored" label? The press job didn't "restore" the book to its prior condition. It damaged it, just like it would if you ran over the book with a steamroller. Would you note "pressing" on the label of a book that had been run over with a steamroller? The book is "pressed" after all, isn't it? Of course you wouldn't.

 

As for what is entailed in a professional press job, ask around with some of the professional restorers, especially Mark Wilson (a former restoration professional and now dealer, whom I'm sure you know). I have found Mark to be quite willing to share knowledge of restoration.

[FFB]

The ironic thing is that CGC's proposed scanning technology to help combat trimming is actually clearly more suited to catching pressing then it is to catching trimming.

 

How, exactly?

[deathlok]

The ironic thing is that CGC's proposed scanning technology to help combat trimming is actually clearly more suited to catching pressing then it is to catching trimming.

 

How, exactly?

 

[FFB]

The pressing is a step in the right direction. But as of now I don't know if pressing is a real problem with PGX considering CGC tends to get far more of the higher dollar books. Not to mention the problem with detection.

 

I think if I was PGX I would,

First hire a known name for restoration detection.

Second, give a list of all PGX books submitted by Elliot/Leder. Or at least track some of these books down to get them regraded. As many of us know many restored books submitted by T Leder were missed by PGX.

Third , come clean about the doctored scan that was given in regards to missing the trimmed ASM book.

Forth, clean up their act on pg quality. There are some really tan PGX books that aren't noted "tan" on the label

 

If PGX followed these steps I believe they would be TRUE competition against CGC and the hobby would be a better place for it.

 

Above all I am most disappointed in their handling of restoration detection.

They REALLY need to address this, even more so than CGC. They have issues with questionable sellers T. Leder/R. Elliot/M. Adams/

Known on e-bay as ponytailblunder/ma4pres/etc.

 

Feel free to pass this on to Mr. Patterson.

 

I agree with you on all points. PGX has made strides but if CGC misses restoration and trimming, I suspect PGX can do no better at the detection. They really do need a well known restoration expert on their payroll.

 

 

Edit. I guess Rip's comments reflect the opinion of many who have posted.

 

Harvey Dude,

 

It's not even a question of PGX being able to "do no better." PGX's restoration detection skills are downright lousy. Daniel can correct me if I'm wrong, but he has had ZERO formal training in or experience with restoration. Even though CGC missed all the trimming on Ewert's books, at least Borock, Haspel, and Litch are better at spotting restoration than most people in the hobby. PGX has a very steep learning curve ahead of itself and the longer it waits to get the training Daniel needs, the worse it'll get.

[nearmint]

We can agree to disagree on the business angle. I just don't see dealers or collectors rushing(and paying!) to devalue their books by receiving pressing notations. It just doesn't seem realistic.

 

But you seem to be presuming that they will be submitting pressed books, or that PGX will start labelling books that are not pressed as pressed. First, one would think by announcing such a policy those who press books will not submit them for grading. Secondly, I would hope that by saying they have to be 100% positive the book has been pressed there will be few, if any, errors.

 

Mark, as has been discussed many times on the boards, dealers and collectors are bound to have some pressed books in their collections(dealers may have many), whether they know it or not. Why would they chose the company that could potentially devalue their stock with pressed notations?

 

Do I think you might? Yes. But comics are not your primary source of income. Most dealers are not going to take that chance, and PGX will lose their business.

 

You bring up the point "one would think by announcing such a policy those who press books will not submit them for grading." You're absolutely right, and this idea supports my opinion. PGX will also lose the business of anyone who presses books.

 

Finally, you say "that by saying they have to be 100% positive the book has been pressed there will be few, if any, errors." I would respond that by saying they have to be 100% positive the book has been pressed, they will actually designate very few books as pressed. They will rarely be 100% sure. This causes a problem in that they have announced themselves as the company that notes pressing, and some collectors will have the mistaken impression that PGX books without a pressed notation are virgin, untouched books, when actually PGX may have been 70, 80, even 90% sure the book was pressed, but didn't give it the notation.

 

There's just a lot of problems with this business model, and it doesn't help that PGX didn't solve the problems that Rip mentioned before they made this move.

[THE_BEYONDER]

You bring up the point "one would think by announcing such a policy those who press books will not submit them for grading." You're absolutely right, and this idea supports my opinion. PGX will also lose the business of anyone who presses books.

 

Exactly. And that's the whole point. Let CGC launder not only the PCS manipulations, but all the pro-pressed submissions as well. If "PGX will also lose the business of anyone who presses books", it follows that less will be in their system in the 1st place.

 

Collectors choose to buy/sell exclusively through PGX.... and this offsets the "loss" of the pressed submissions.

[Aman619]

As Daniel said in his post, this was a topic specifically discussed in SD months ago. I had a specific conversation with him about taking this very position in order to widen the gap between the two companies so this is nothing surprising at all. Why do you guys have to be so negative about this? I find it amazing sometimes how defensive you pro-pressing people are.

 

Since you brought up San Diego, let me ask you this question: when you spoke to Daniel in San Diego, did you find him to be particularly well-informed with regard to issues of pressing and restoration detection?

 

Because like Rip said, I don't think Daniel knows what he's doing when it comes to resto detection. He needs either to get someone in there who knows what he is doing, or needs to get formal training in place PRONTO before he makes a business decision to start calling books "pressed" when he can't even spot an amateur staple-swap job (true story).

 

Once he gets a professional on staff who actually has a history in the restoration aspect of the hobby, maybe then he'll get some credibility. But until then, all I think this new policy will amount to is a bunch of missed calls (where pro pressing gets past him) and false positives.

 

I think it is important for CGC to have competition and I think PGX is in the best position to be that competition, but I just cannot understand why Daniel doesn't address this weakest chink in his armor, so to speak. He does a good job of trying to address all other shortcomings (getting rid of the PVC inner well, for example, and switching to an inner well without hard 90 degree well walls to avoid SCS). Why ignore the biggest shortcoming of all?

 

Again, absolutely no disagreement from me. The best thing PGX could do for itself is hire someone either known to the community or with formal training to handle its restoration detection in order to enhance its credibility.

 

I think the best solution all around is for Borock to partner up with Daniel at PGX. In one fell swoop, PGX gets a new clean experienced reputation, a better slab, a huge leg up toward a mano-a-mano competitioin with CGC, and Borock gets showered with gooodwill for starting over...PLUS - - would go from employee to co-owner of PGX (after tense negotiations in which Daniel trades 100% ownership of a tiny company with scant prospects into a player overnight thanx to Borocks grading cachet.

 

Somebody call Steve!! and Daniel...

[lou_fine]

classic opportunism by the competition. Folks were saying CGc was getting lax with their grading, ie giving gift grades to weaker books - CGG comes back with uber strict grading on the moderns, making them look like tougher graders and look like they are protecting the best interest of buyers. Now CGC "appears" to not have their resto detection in check and opportunists with anti pressing agendas jump all over CGC's stated policy, so what does PGX do? Appear to act in the best interest of the buyers again to secure/steal as much business as possible. Predictable and transparent

 

I agree that that's what they're doing, but I don't think it will work. They're shooting themselves in the foot. Any business they have from dealers will go away. Some collectors will want to know if their books are pressed, but the vast majority will not want to fork over their hard-earned dough so PGX can possibly label them pressed.

 

Nearmint;

 

Generally in agreement with your knee-jerk view here over the short-term. Over the long-term, however, this could end up being viewed from a completely different and more reasoned angle.

 

As a collector who would generally not be interested in pressed books, I would probably start leaning towards PGX books as opposed to CGC books. Especially considering that anybody pressing books and selling them non-disclosed would rationally be using CGC. In addition, PGX's reputation for tigher grading on the high-end along with CGC's continually changing and loosening grading standards would also encourage me as a collector to start leaning more towards PGX books when it comes to purchasing.

 

If collectors end up preferring PGX books over CGC books, then prices would follow accordingly. This in turn, could end up with even more honest dealers switching over to PGX since they would have nothing to lose and only end up with higher resale prices realized. As a result, as time goes on, the proportion of non-disclosed pressed books from CGC would only increase since these would be the only submittors with anything to gain from a CGC submission.

 

The key missing link in the above scenario, however, is PGX's current absymal reputation for restoration detection. If I was running PGX, I would consider the need to address this concern as priority #1 in order to grow my business. This would require some serious thinking outside the box, and my solution would be to enlist the services of Chris Friesen here. This would serve the dual purpose of strengthening PGX and weakening their competition at the same time.

 

Before you dismiss this as a totally absurd idea that would never happen, remember that initial rumours were that Chris was leaving CGC to start HIS OWN company. We now find out that Chris is NOT starting HIS OWN company, but merely just an employee of the new CCG controlled company. Not sure how happy Chris is with the current situation if everything is as per the current rumours. A substantial minority partnership in PGX might be more than enough to entice Chris to jump ship to PGX, and at the same time, something PGX might be willing to chance in order to have their best shot in beating out CGC.

[lou_fine]

I think the best solution all around is for Borock to partner up with Daniel at PGX. In one fell swoop, PGX gets a new clean experienced reputation, a better slab, a huge leg up toward a mano-a-mano competitioin with CGC, and Borock gets showered with gooodwill for starting over...PLUS - - would go from employee to co-owner of PGX (after tense negotiations in which Daniel trades 100% ownership of a tiny company with scant prospects into a player overnight thanx to Borocks grading cachet.

 

Somebody call Steve!! and Daniel...

 

Aman;

 

Looks like both of us was thinking of the same thing here.

 

Yeah, PGX should call up BOTH Steve B. and Chris F. immediately and offer them full patnerships in the new and improved PGX instead of being mere employees within the CCG hierarchy.

[Aman619]

great minds think alike! Friesen fits better since PGX needs a resto detector most. But, Im hoping Steve B extricates himself from a bad situation that IMO will get worse before it gets better.

[lou_fine]

The ironic thing is that CGC's proposed scanning technology to help combat trimming is actually clearly more suited to catching pressing then it is to catching trimming.

 

How, exactly?

 

 

Come on, let's get serious here, guys.

 

Are you really buying CGC's theory that their new scanning process will help them with the detection of trimming, and yet you believe will be totally ineffective when it comes to detecting pressing.

 

Have we not seen countless scans on these boards here with before and after images that clearly indicate physical evidence of pressing. Why is it so hard for you guys to believe that the presence of before and after scans would not help to flag books for closer investigation of possible pressing.

 

The cyrstal ball image you posted above would probably be more applicable to the use of scans for detecting micro trimming

[BassGMan]

classic opportunism by the competition. Folks were saying CGc was getting lax with their grading, ie giving gift grades to weaker books - CGG comes back with uber strict grading on the moderns, making them look like tougher graders and look like they are protecting the best interest of buyers. Now CGC "appears" to not have their resto detection in check and opportunists with anti pressing agendas jump all over CGC's stated policy, so what does PGX do? Appear to act in the best interest of the buyers again to secure/steal as much business as possible. Predictable and transparent

 

Predictable and transparent? Possibly. Sounds like good competition to me. Taking advantage of your competition's wesknesses is exactly what a company needs to do to try to get ahead and steal some market share. We will all be better off because of it.

[herc2000]

Was we not all upset that CGC would not label pressed books as pressed when detected? So why is it a problem if PGX does it? This is what we have wanted from CGC all this time! You just can't satisfy some people. I think it is a good thing. As far as their grading and page quality, CGC was not that good at it either to begin with, I remember Harley Yee having a HOM 1 CGC 8.0 off white, and the tan and sun shadows on this book were a joke! So CGC page quality grading has not always been as good as you would like to think! There are also a lot more CGC books that need to be re graded for different reasons including, over grading, pressing, trimming, bsd special grades, page quality! At least PGX as stepped forward to say they will say it is pressed if they spot it unlike CGC! Is this not what we want?????? To know full disclosure.