Color Touch - does intent matter? 3 3

[Croatbag]

Hello,

I have pretty much 0 experience with looking at comics with restoration and being able to identify it.  I just got a raw comic that had something popping up under the blacklight.  Here is the pic

 

 

When the blacklight is off though it just looks like damage.

 

 

First off I notice the area doesn't match the color if it was indeed color touch, so that brought me to my first question/thought.  If a kid drew on a comic somewhere or a marker fell on the comic would that come back as a purple label because there is color on the comic even if there was no actual intent to cover up a flaw and make the comic look better.  My thought would be just that is counts against the grade but wouldn't be considered resto.

Now for this specific issue when I look under a loupe it looks like maybe it was a very small tape pull.  Would old tape residue shine under blacklight?

 

Just looking for thoughts on what people think could be causing this to shine under the blacklight, and if this would come back as a PLOD.

 

Thanks for your time in advance!

[theCapraAegagrus]

For the most part, yes, intent matters. As a grader, you cannot always discern intent, though. A green mark dot on a white cover may not hide a flaw overall, but it could be hiding something.

[rjpb]

On 2/11/2022 at 7:49 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

For the most part, yes, intent matters. As a grader, you cannot always discern intent, though. A green mark dot on a white cover may not hide a flaw overall, but it could be hiding something.

I don't think a green dot on a white cover would be considered color touch by CGC or much of anyone else. Regardless of intent or how amateur the attempt, if it looks as if the added ink was trying to match existing color in an effort to mask color loss it would be color touch, if it's just a stray pen mark on the cover it wouldn't be. This might lead to some degree of absurdity in relative valuations, where a couple dots of black ink applied to cover the break in the black line down a spine makes a book less valuable than one in the same grade but with an ugly scribble on the cover where someone tested a pen, but that's on the market not the grading. 

[Mr. Zipper]

I think black light is kind of fake news when it comes to resto detection. I've read that the companies rarely use them. It takes a certain frequency and strength and even then they overlook some things and pop false positives on others. Good ol' fashioned eyeballs work best. 

[rjpb]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:39 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I think black light is kind of fake news when it comes to resto detection. I've read that the companies rarely use them. It takes a certain frequency and strength and even then they overlook some things and pop false positives on others. Good ol' fashioned eyeballs work best. 

I've found them useful for finding location of color touch and glue with slabbed books where first hand observation is limited. One can't rely on it alone, but it's a tool.

I've also found that just scanning a book can make things pop that aren't as noticeable in hand, but probably the best tool is holding the opened cover up to a strong light. All of a sudden things like rice paper fills and and painted color jump out, as they have a different density.

[James J Johnson]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:39 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I think black light is kind of fake news when it comes to resto detection. I've read that the companies rarely use them. It takes a certain frequency and strength and even then they overlook some things and pop false positives on others. Good ol' fashioned eyeballs work best. 

Absolutely. Might be a good indicator for some color touch but not conclusive for all.  Eyeballs + light + magnification + experience in detecting it. 

[The Lions Den]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:32 AM, Croatbag said:

Hello,

I have pretty much 0 experience with looking at comics with restoration and being able to identify it.  I just got a raw comic that had something popping up under the blacklight.  Here is the pic

 

 

When the blacklight is off though it just looks like damage.

 

 

First off I notice the area doesn't match the color if it was indeed color touch, so that brought me to my first question/thought.  If a kid drew on a comic somewhere or a marker fell on the comic would that come back as a purple label because there is color on the comic even if there was no actual intent to cover up a flaw and make the comic look better.  My thought would be just that is counts against the grade but wouldn't be considered resto.

Now for this specific issue when I look under a loupe it looks like maybe it was a very small tape pull.  Would old tape residue shine under blacklight?

 

Just looking for thoughts on what people think could be causing this to shine under the blacklight, and if this would come back as a PLOD.

 

Thanks for your time in advance!

I like the questions you're asking...here are some other things to consider: 

Amateur color touch tends to bleed through the cover. Always check the interior of the cover for any bleed through on suspicious areas. Marker is the most common type of amateur color touch I've seen, but of course it could also be colored pencil, crayon or any other utensil used for coloring things. Bleed through is one of the sure signs of amateur color touch.

Examine the suspicious areas with a good quality jeweler's loupe under a good light source. If the dot matrix is obscured, that's an area you need to examine closer. If it's inconclusive, CGC won't usually hit it for color touch.

The most common areas for color touch are the spine and the edges of the book, and also areas with color breaks (such as corner creases or subscription creases). 

Professional color touch is often acrylic based, so even if it doesn't bleed it can sometimes look as if it's been painted onto the cover. There will often be tiny ridgelike brushstrokes in these areas. Books that have been heavily restored with large pieces added and color touch not only look different, they feel different. That density thing again...

And for me, intent is what really defines the difference between color touch or some errant marks on the cover. If there was no intent to deceive, it's usually not considered color touch. 

I hope this helps and good luck in your quest...   

[Croatbag]

On 2/12/2022 at 6:09 PM, The Lions Den said:

I like the questions you're asking...here are some other things to consider: 

Amateur color touch tends to bleed through the cover. Always check the interior of the cover for any bleed through on suspicious areas. Marker is the most common type of amateur color touch I've seen, but of course it could also be colored pencil, crayon or any other utensil used for coloring things. Bleed through is one of the sure signs of amateur color touch.

Examine the suspicious areas with a good quality jeweler's loupe under a good light source. If the dot matrix is obscured, that's an area you need to examine closer. If it's inconclusive, CGC won't usually hit it for color touch.

The most common areas for color touch are the spine and the edges of the book, and also areas with color breaks (such as corner creases or subscription creases). 

Professional color touch is often acrylic based, so even if it doesn't bleed it can sometimes look as if it's been painted onto the cover. There will often be tiny ridgelike brushstrokes in these areas. Books that have been heavily restored with large pieces added and color touch not only look different, they feel different. That density thing again...

And for me, intent is what really defines the difference between color touch or some errant marks on the cover. If there was no intent to deceive, it's usually not considered color touch. 

I hope this helps and good luck in your quest...   

Thanks everyone for the feedback, very helpful.  Only thing I haven't seen is does anyone have any specific thoughts on the book I posted? Would residue from a tape pull pop under blacklight?

[Topnotchman]

From the limited information provided it’s not restored. 

[James J Johnson]

On 2/13/2022 at 7:46 AM, Croatbag said:

Thanks everyone for the feedback, very helpful.  Only thing I haven't seen is does anyone have any specific thoughts on the book I posted? Would residue from a tape pull pop under blacklight?

Is there any sign of soak/bleed through to the inside of the front cover where that spot in question is located? Also, does whatever the coloration is look like it is absorbed into the surface, or just resting on the surface? Because to me, it looks like the latter. And if so, immediate remedy may be an option. 

[Croatbag]

On 2/13/2022 at 4:45 PM, James J Johnson said:

Is there any sign of soak/bleed through to the inside of the front cover where that spot in question is located? Also, does whatever the coloration is look like it is absorbed into the surface, or just resting on the surface? Because to me, it looks like the latter. And if so, immediate remedy may be an option. 

No bleed through that I see.  It just looks like a scuff to me, that's why I was thinking maybe it was a very small tape pull, but I'm not sure if residue from tape would shine under blacklight.

[Mr. Zipper]

I think it's foreign matter that just happens to be a similar color. Actually looks like toothpaste. 

The spine has a number of creases in the dark area. It makes no sense that someone would touch up this minute crack in the upper edge and then leave all the spine stresses.

[Mr. Zipper]

The other possibility is it's a smear of glue. You can easily tell glue by running your finger over it and feeling the difference in texture of the surface. 

Then again, seems like an odd place to apply glue.

[James J Johnson]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:15 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

I think it's foreign matter that just happens to be a similar color. Actually looks like toothpaste. 

The spine has a number of creases in the dark area. It makes no sense that someone would touch up this minute crack in the upper edge and then leave all the spine stresses.

That's what I see. Matter upon the surface of the paper that may be as simple to remove as moistening a piece of tissue and carefully testing the central part of the area to see if any dislodes on the tissue, q-tip, or other type of only slightly abrasive swab or swath. 

[James J Johnson]

On 2/14/2022 at 7:20 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

The other possibility is it's a smear of glue. You can easily tell glue by running your finger over it and feeling the difference in texture of the surface. 

Then again, seems like an odd place to apply glue.

If it was glue, likely the tear wouldn't still be evident. It would appear to be tamped down and tacked in place slightly more than it does. 

[kav]

I raised this question years ago-if someone dropped a sharpie and it made a mark in a black area is it now CT?
Side question-if you marked over a dot of black CT with a silver sharpie wouldnt that make it blue label?  I can see a lot of potential $$$ in this question.

[kav]

On 2/15/2022 at 4:52 PM, Sweedy said:

That happens to me all the time! 

if you enclose a note to CGC pretty sure they will give blue label.

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:41 PM, kav said:

I raised this question years ago-if someone dropped a sharpie and it made a mark in a black area is it now CT?
Side question-if you marked over a dot of black CT with a silver sharpie wouldnt that make it blue label?  I can see a lot of potential $$$ in this question.

I suspect if they saw bleed through to the interior cover, you’d probably get hammered anyway.

That said, a strategically placed arrival date, store sticker, owners name… Might be worth a try if it’s a tiny color touch. 

[kav]

On 2/15/2022 at 5:00 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I suspect if they saw bleed through to the interior cover, you’d probably get hammered anyway.

That said, a strategically placed arrival date, store sticker, owners name… Might be worth a try if it’s a tiny color touch. 

how could they hammer you for color touch that was no longer restoration of any kind?

[Mr. Zipper]

On 2/15/2022 at 8:02 PM, kav said:

how could they hammer you for color touch that was no longer restoration of any kind?

I agree… But they PLOD low-grade books with marker touches or glue that don’t improve the appearance or technical grade. So how is that really “restoration”? It seems as though the PLOD policy is as punitive as anything else.