Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:40 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Well with all the discussion in the Cap 1 thread, I think this update cements who’s top dog and will always be lol. Just wow! The first book to sell for over 5 mil, atleast publicly known.

 

For those who were saying that the Cap 1 sale push that book into the #3 position, I guess they must also be saying this sale has now pushed Superman 1 into the top position in terms of being most valuable comic book.  

[jimjum12]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:22 AM, tth2 said:

I would argue that this hobby has actually been held back to some degree by the fact that its biggest, most valuable copy has not sold in recent memory.  I think if it ever did sell, the Church Action 1 would set a definitive benchmark in valuation and would become an investment asset that flips periodically at ever increasing prices just like the Gretzky T206 did.

You see where I'm going .... the 1933 St Gaudens $20 Gold, Inverted Flying Jenny, etc. There was a time when the rare coin hobby had only a dozen or so Million Dollar sales, there are hundreds now, and that's considered an obsolete hobby by many comic collectors. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:22 AM, PopKulture said:

On 4/13/2022 at 10:05 AM, MasterChief said:

Interesting aside, the color touch is identified as "Restoration" in the grader notes.

That is interesting. How can one be certain that once the book is taken out of the blue holder for regrading that it won't be re-holdered in a restored or conserved slab? Surely one might seek assurances beforehand, which seems to diminish to some degree the whole notion of objectivity.  

I remember being down at the SD Con's in the early 90's or thereabouts and whenever the Church copy of Superman 1 came up, collectors back then kind of looked down upon it as they said it had been a restored copy that then went through some further work to have its restoration removed. 

I guess they didn't removed it all completely, but enough to have it received a blue Universal label when CGC came into existence years later.  

As for your last two questions, some boardies would probably say that you should be asking, what is the opposite role of the Finalizer?  

Edited April 14, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:23 PM, Larryw7 said:

The Church copy of Adventure 40 has very minor CT and has been in a blue slab for 20 years or so. So this policy is nothing new.

I believe you are confusing this with the Church copy of More Fun 52 as both of these books came up for sale in one of the early auctions (possibly Greg Manning ???) within CGC's first few years of existence, with the More Fun 52 encased in a blue slab while the Adventure 40 had the much dreaded PLOD label attached to it.  

I can't seem to find a scan for the Church More Fun 52, but I believe the blue label notes stated something like "very MINOR amount of color touch, glue on spine of cover", while the Adventure 40 had the following on its PLOD label:  

 

I still remember this because although both books had restoration listed on it with the only difference being just one key word, the mere fact that the Adventure 40 had the stigmatizing PLOD label resulted in it selling only for a huge discount to top of guide, while the More Fun 52 which was once formerly co-owned by Borock himself managed to sell for a huge premium (or was it a multiple ???) to top of guide.  

Edited April 14, 2022 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:41 PM, Aman619 said:

The only aspect thats new is keeping the old serial number, but , isn’t that a case for greater transparency? The census shows the 8.0 disappearing and an 8.5 appearing. And with the same serial number it’s even more obvious. Wonder if it’s a change for all books or just this one big book. 

Why would you say this now results in greater transparency since you have now lost the grading history (i.e. prior grade and prior date graded) for the book as the only information that now shows up for the book would be the current grade and date?  

And NO, I somehow believe this change is in place for only certain books because how would CGC know if a regular Joe is resubmitting some random book through the regular submission process for a resub that they should be keeping the old label serial number.  

Edited April 14, 2022 by lou_fine

[Mr bla bla]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:33 AM, lou_fine said:

I believe you are confusing this with the Church copy of More Fun 52 as both of these books came up for sale in one of the early auctions (possibly Greg Manning ???) within CGC's first few years of existence, with the More Fun 52 encased in a blue slab while the Adventure 40 had the much dreaded PLOD label attached to it.  

I can't seem to find a scan for the Church More Fun 52, but I believe the blue label notes stated something like "very MINOR amount of color touch, glue on spine of cover", while the Adventure 40 had the following on its PLOD label:  

 

I still remember this because although both books had restoration listed on it with the only difference being just one key word, the mere fact that the Adventure 40 had the stigmatizing PLOD label resulted in it selling only for a huge discount to top of guide, while the More Fun 52 which was once co-owned by Borock himself managed to sell for a huge premium (or was it a multiple ???) to top of guide.  

Regarding this Adventure 40, i just thought that we agreed above, that it has been 20+ years cgc policy, to allow minor CT on GA books?

so why is this book purple?

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:00 AM, Mr bla bla said:

Regarding this Adventure 40, i just thought that we agreed above, that it has been 20+ years cgc policy, to allow minor CT on GA books?

so why is this book purple?

It's really based upon the amount of the color touch because the Superman 1 and I believe the More Fun 52 both had very MINOR amounts of color touch while the Adventure 40 had a very SMALL amount of color touch on it.  

So, I would assume this means "small" is more than "minor" and enough to have the book cross over into the PLOD threshold.  

[Mr bla bla]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:05 AM, lou_fine said:

It's really based upon the amount of the color touch because the Superman 1 and I believe the More Fun 52 both had very MINOR amounts of color touch while the Adventure 40 had a very SMALL amount of color touch on it.  

So, I would assume this means "small" is more than "minor" and enough to have the book cross over into the PLOD threshold.  

Since Distinctions like that (minor/small) could potentially cause 10.000s FMV price drop on a given book,- shouldnt terminology like what you are suggesting be reflected in the cgc resto scale criteria?

it seems peculiarly inconsistent, that we are left to guess about these matters...😟

[Crowzilla]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:05 AM, lou_fine said:

It's really based upon the amount of the color touch because the Superman 1 and I believe the More Fun 52 both had very MINOR amounts of color touch while the Adventure 40 had a very SMALL amount of color touch on it.  

So, I would assume this means "small" is more than "minor" and enough to have the book cross over into the PLOD threshold.  

Correct, and the Adventure 40 has color touch on the body of the cover itself, not just a dot along the spine like the More Fun and Superman.

[Timely]

On 4/13/2022 at 1:19 PM, sfcityduck said:

It's not a pedigree.  He side by sided the MH with the copy he has and his copy was better.  That guy has proven to be the most astute buyer of high grade comics ever, and it is clearly out of love as he's not sold any of the top books without an upgrade.  

It’s possible in todays arena, the MH is better than his, why? 30-35 years back, the MH was viewed as a restored 7.0 to 8.0, depending on who you asked. Everyone knew it was restored, with some resto having been removed since those days, such as piece removal. If the other copy was only a 6.5, by default a 6.5 unrestored trumps any restored copy, MH or not! Flash forward to the world of restoration removal, grading and grading bumps, it’s not so clear. 
 

I know nothing about the other copy, never seen it. I’m only suggesting 1 possible outcome. Until a grading company verifies the other copy, this is all we have, guesses!

Edited April 14, 2022 by Timely

[KCOComics]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:41 PM, Aman619 said:

You guys kill me.  Always spinning wild tales and taking news that’s been reported and disbelieving it. Looking for holes in the story. People in the know knew about the sale.  There are no secrets, just the ones no one told you about. But others talk. What’s so hard to understand here?  A buyer wants a big book. A Really Big Book. Dealers scurry to make a deal. Buyer and seller are matched up. Buyer is told it’s probably upgradeable, but still a great deal at the price. Buyer rolls the dice. Bingo. Happens all the time with books graded 20 years ago. Sale is leaked but Info gets garbled. Everyone goes quiet until a few months pass by and there’s a press release confirming the rumors  

but that just invites criticism and speculation of wrongdoing. The only aspect thats new is keeping the old serial number, but , isn’t that a case for greater transparency? The census shows the 8.0 disappearing and an 8.5 appearing. And with the same serial number it’s even more obvious. Wonder if it’s a change for all books or just this one big book. 
 

anyway, on with the show!

The one thing I would add to this is, it probably wasn't that big of a gamble to crack and press this book. 

I'm sure for a book of this stature Nelson and CGC reviewed it carefully to see what the realistic possibility was of a grade bump. Then it was given royal treatment all the way through the process. 

Of course there is some risk, but I imagine the buyer had a very good idea of where this would end up. 

[PDGray]

If it was resubbed in January they must have paid extra to have it fast-tracked for that turnaround time.

 

PDG

[Jaydogrules]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:20 PM, VintageComics said:

I suppose I have to say something otherwise people will think I have something to hide.

Like all the witnesses who see all details in a public auction?

Anything is possible of course but if you've followed my posts on those topics in the past, I've exposed some of the methods used to inflate prices.

This is a real sale. Neither the people nor the book are a secret to most old school collectors. 

And let's face it, this isn't the only big sale in the last year. We've seen Batman #1's, Cap #1's, Superman #1's, Action #1's, Detective #27's, AF #15s etc all sell for record numbers in the past year and they ALL fall into a range where they were expected to, relative to each other. There would be almost NO benefit to artificially inflating the sale of one book compared to all the other books around it. It would stick out like a sore thumb. More importantly, a Superman #1 CGC 7.0 sold for $2.6MIL 5 months ago. This is the highest graded copy and a Church to boot. 

Even before the sale happened, Superman #1 was readily accepted by most to be a top 4-5 or more likely a top 3 book of all time. The discussions were had both here and even in the SA forum so is this book really an outlier?

Has CGC ever announced the previous grade on a book when the grade has changed? 

No. So why would you expect them to do so here?

People have complained for years that CGC changes serial numbers on upgrades as though they are trying to hide something.

Now they keep the same serial number and they still complain. 

And why on earth would they remove the color touch notation if the color touch is still there?

But, but, but...the Superman #1 had white pages. 

[B】This is a public sale. You know as much about this sale as you do about an auction house sale. [/b]

No, it is absolutely NOT a public sale.  It is, in fact , an expressly "private sale" that was made "public" with only the  purported info the parties involved in it decided to make public, thus evading  any kind of vetting that happens with an actually public auction.  And others have already said why there is a significant difference.  People can claim anything and market manipulation is a thing, and one of the people involved has been known to do such a thing.  

Put the thing up for auction and prove it.  If not, there's an asterisk next to it and AF 15 is still top dog 

-J.

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Jaydogrules

[Lukesaurus]

Did you make a bet for how long AF15 will be the top dog ? 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:01 PM, jimjum12 said:

There was a recent auction for a HULK 3 that was green label CGC 8.5 due to replaced staples. I was hoping it would fetch less than 1500 due to the work, ... maybe I could afford it, and It went for what the last blue label CGC 8.5 went for. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

For the good of the books, replacement with vintage staples should carry no stigma.

[Bronty]

On 4/14/2022 at 9:23 AM, Jaydogrules said:

No, it is absolutely NOT a public sale.  It is, in fact , an expressly "private sale" that was made "public" with only the  purported info the parties involved in it decided to make public, thus evading  any kind of vetting that happens with an actually public auction.  And others have already said why there is a significant difference.  People can claim anything and market manipulation is a thing, and one of the people involved has been known to do such a thing.  

Put the thing up for auction and prove it.  If not, there's an asterisk next to it and AF 15 is still top dog 

-J.

 

Nontheless CGC itself reported the sale.    Do you really think for a minute they made it up?   

[sfcityduck]

On 4/14/2022 at 4:48 AM, Timely said:

It’s possible in todays arena, the MH is better than his, why? 30-35 years back, the MH was viewed as a restored 7.0 to 8.0, depending on who you asked. Everyone knew it was restored, with some resto having been removed since those days, such as piece removal. If the other copy was only a 6.5, by default a 6.5 unrestored trumps any restored copy, MH or not! Flash forward to the world of restoration removal, grading and grading bumps, it’s not so clear. 
 

I know nothing about the other copy, never seen it. I’m only suggesting 1 possible outcome. Until a grading company verifies the other copy, this is all we have, guesses!

I am willing to give DA enough credibility that he can side by side two books and pick the better copy. Everything you just said are reasons to NOT view CGC as the arbiter.  For me CGC has taken some credibility hits recently.  Which is too bad because the role it plays is essential for many.

[jimjum12]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

For the good of the books, replacement with vintage staples should carry no stigma.

Absolutely. 

There was a time where that procedure would drop a book in value by more than 50% ... Never understood that. Maybe logic will finally prevail. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[tth2]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:19 PM, sfcityduck said:

For the good of the books, replacement with vintage staples should carry no stigma.

I think a book with its original staples should command a higher price than a book with replacement staples, vintage or not.  

[Jaydogrules]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:23 AM, Bronty said:

Nontheless CGC itself reported the sale.    Do you really think for a minute they made it up?   

You mean CGC announced what was reported to it by the private parties ?

-J.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Jaydogrules