Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[Aman619]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:48 AM, Timely said:

It’s possible in todays arena, the MH is better than his, why? 30-35 years back, the MH was viewed as a restored 7.0 to 8.0, depending on who you asked. Everyone knew it was restored, with some resto having been removed since those days, such as piece removal. If the other copy was only a 6.5, by default a 6.5 unrestored trumps any restored copy, MH or not! Flash forward to the world of restoration removal, grading and grading bumps, it’s not so clear. 
 

I know nothing about the other copy, never seen it. I’m only suggesting 1 possible outcome. Until a grading company verifies the other copy, this is all we have, guesses!

You graded the Church copy as an 8.0 right?  What were the considerations about how it got the grade, given hobby awareness of its issues?

and as you well know, DA owned all three of the so far best copies at one time or another.  And he selected his no name copy as the keeper. Of course he may have messed up, but we don’t really believe that. Do we?  Maybe it’s eventually just a 9.0 the Church mystique may mean it always sells for more.  
 

that would be an interesting dilemma as a buyer choosing between them huh?

[sfcityduck]

On 4/13/2022 at 11:22 PM, tth2 said:

I would argue that this hobby has actually been held back to some degree by the fact that its biggest, most valuable copy has not sold in recent memory.  I think if it ever did sell, the Church Action 1 would set a definitive benchmark in valuation and would become an investment asset that flips periodically at ever increasing prices just like the Gretzky T206 did.

That is a REALLY BAD analogy.  Here's the history on that manipulated (maybe even forged) card and the transactions it underwent:

The most famous T206 Honus Wagner is the "Gretzky T206 Honus Wagner" card. The card's odd texture and shape led to speculation that it was altered.

The Gretzky T206 Wagner first came to attention in 1985, when small-time Hicksville, New York card collector Alan Ray contacted Bob Sevchuk, the owner of a Long Island sports memorabilia store, to arrange a potential $25,000 deal for his T206 Honus Wagner card. Bill Mastro, a sports memorabilia dealer who later founded Mastro Auctions and became one of the most powerful figures in the industry, heard the news, and immediately jumped on the offer. Mastro, with the financial backing of friend Rob Lifson, sought to improve the offer and had Ray add 50 to 75 of his other T206 series cards, including the rare T206 Eddie Plank, into the deal. Ray, who later stated he "had a money situation," agreed to Mastro's terms of the deal.

Mastro sold the card two years later to Jim Copeland for nearly four times the price he had originally paid. Copeland's sizable transaction revitalized interest in the sports memorabilia collection market. In 1991, Copeland sold the card to ice hockey figures Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall for $451,000. Gretzky resold the card four years later to Walmart and Treat Entertainment for $500,000 for use as the top prize in a promotional contest.

The next year, a Florida postal worker won the card and auctioned it at Christie's for $640,000 to collector Michael Gidwitz. In 2000, the card was sold via Robert Edward Auctions to card collector Brian Seigel for $1.27 million. In February 2007, Seigel sold the card privately to an anonymous collector for $2.35 million. Less than six months later, the card was sold to another anonymous collector for $2.8 million. In April 2011, that anonymous purchaser was revealed to be Ken Kendrick, owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks.

In October 2013, Bill Mastro, CEO of Mastro Auctions (the owner of Robert Edward Auctions) pleaded guilty to mail fraud in U.S. District Court and later admitted to the court that he had trimmed the "Gretzky" Wagner card to sharply increase its value. 

In August 2020, the T206 record was broken when a Mike Trout 2009 Bowman Chrome Draft Prospects Superfractors series rookie card with a card count of 1, a manufactured collectible, sold in August 2020 for a record setting $3.93 million. 

Other T206 Wagners, both legitimate and fake, have surfaced in recent years. Some of the real cards have fetched hundreds of thousands of dollars in auctions. One particular T206 Honus Wagner owned by John Cobb and Ray Edwards has attracted media controversy over its authenticity.

I hope to God comics are not equivalent to baseball card collecting, but I fear that is or may be becoming the case.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:33 AM, tth2 said:

I think a book with its original staples should command a higher price than a book with replacement staples, vintage or not.  

How can you tell if you don't have pre-staple replacement pics of the book?  

For the good of the hobby and preserving fragile aging comics, I do not think that collectors should be incentivized to let books suffer staple deterioration.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:39 AM, Aman619 said:

 

that would be an interesting dilemma as a buyer choosing between them huh?

The laudable thing about DA is that he has on more than one occassion chosen to keep the better book and get rid of the pedigree.  In one case that paid off for him because it led him to acquire not only the non-pedigree comic, but also the entire collection of what that book was a part (essentially his own yet to be graded private pedigree - the same as BangZoom).  But, I think that it shows that DA is a true high grade collector - buying the books, definitely not the label or the pedigree, because he appears to trust his own eye and judgment.  

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:23 AM, Jaydogrules said:

Put the thing up for auction and prove it.  If not, there's an asterisk next to it and AF 15 is still top dog 

Are you really tryimng to say that all comic book sales are invalid except for those sold through a public auction process?  

I remember it was not that long ago when virtually ALL comic book sales were done so-called "privately" beween a dealer and a customer and virtually no books were sold through a public auction process.  

[Aman619]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:55 AM, sfcityduck said:

The laudable thing about DA is that he has on more than one occassion chosen to keep the better book and get rid of the pedigree.  In one case that paid off for him because it led him to acquire not only the non-pedigree comic, but also the entire collection of what that book was a part (essentially his own yet to be graded private pedigree - the same as BangZoom).  But, I think that it shows that DA is a true high grade collector - buying the books, definitely not the label or the pedigree, because he appears to trust his own eye and judgment.  

Agreed.  Still it would be a disappointment for DA if the Church collection rep continues to grow to a point where it’s more important than the grade.  The pedigree multiplier effect versus no name books waxes and wanes.  But seems like the Church name attached to a copy is very strong of late. … for this world class level of book anyway. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Aman619

[rob_react]

On 4/13/2022 at 9:37 AM, Northwest said:

"The Edgar Church/Mile High copy of Superman #1, graded 8.0 Universal by Certified Guaranty Company® (CGC®), privately traded hands in January 2022 for $5.3 million"

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/10085/cgc-graded-superman-1-sells-for-over-5-million-dollars/

 

 

The most valuable book I've seen in person. 

[nearmint]

On 4/14/2022 at 12:52 AM, lou_fine said:

Why would you say this now results in greater transparency since you have now lost the grading history (i.e. prior grade and prior date graded) for the book as the only information that now shows up for the book would be the current grade and date?  

I agree.  I don't like that we've lost the prior grading history for the book.

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 7:33 AM, Jaydogrules said:

On 4/14/2022 at 7:23 AM, Bronty said:

Nontheless CGC itself reported the sale.    Do you really think for a minute they made it up?   

You mean CGC announced what was reported to it by the private parties ?

You do realize that it's quite possible this was really more of a 3-party transaction with CGC being one of the 3 private parties involved at an earlier "unofficial" stage of the party.   

As such, this would then pretty much guarantee a win-win-win situation for all 3 parties involved.  

Edited since I gave it a bit more thought and it's actually more of a 5-party transaction if you include the 2 comic book brokers, including our very own @VintageComics fellow boardie , with all 5 parties winning out in the end.  

Edited April 14, 2022 by lou_fine

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:37 AM, Professor K said:

Now I feel terrible. I feel I owe you an apology. I shouldn't have said any of what I said. I also should have known a lot of people here on the board knew who the people involved were.  You do understand I was not making any accusations, but in this case even speculating the slight possibility of something being anything but completely on the up and up was wrong of me. Sorry I put you through that.

Congratulations on your part in this historic sale. 

Thanks. Don't worry about it at all. I'm not offended. There are just a lot of opinions and I wanted to clarify on some things. 

It's all good! 

[fishbone]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:52 PM, VintageComics said:

Yep. There's no 'book value' on top items. There's only what the seller is willing to accept to part with an item and that usually has to be a strong number.

If it wasn't a strong number, everyone would be jumping at the opportunity to buy the book, wouldn't they?

 

 

and congrats to you, I believe you were involved in the process for this sale 

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:58 AM, lou_fine said:

On 4/14/2022 at 9:23 AM, Jaydogrules said:

Put the thing up for auction and prove it.  If not, there's an asterisk next to it and AF 15 is still top dog 

Are you really tryimng to say that all comic book sales are invalid except for those sold through a public auction process?  

I remember it was not that long ago when virtually ALL comic book sales were done so-called "privately" beween a dealer and a customer and virtually no books were sold through a public auction process.  

People who are new to the hobby may not realize that auction houses have only been a primary means of selling comics in the last decade. Go back more than 10 years and there was only Heritage.

Comiclink, Comic Connect and even Pedigree are all recent venues. 

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:38 AM, fishbone said:

and congrats to you, I believe you were involved in the process for this sale 

Thank you! 

I brokered the deal. I worked on it for some time before we could finalize it. 

I have to say, it's pretty surreal to turn a hobby I always loved, and used to get bullied and beat up for in grade school and middle school and turn it into something like this. 

Back in the 70s and 80s it wasn't cool to be a comic geek. It was considered fringe. We were thought of as losers and nerds and I even got beat up for it at times as a kid. My parents never understood it as they were always throwing my comic books out. 

I never backed down and always stood my ground, though and it's a little surreal now. 

My dad passed away in 2004 and before he passed he even apologized for taking such a negative view on my comic books. I suppose if he could see my life now he'd be impressed. 

Funny the things we carry with us. 

I do appreciate it very much. 

[lou_fine]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:39 AM, VintageComics said:

Go back more than 10 years and there was only Heritage.

Go back more than 20 years when there was still no Heritage, but Greg Manning was still there while Sotheby's had already come and gone. 

 

On 4/14/2022 at 8:39 AM, VintageComics said:

Comiclink, Comic Connect and even Pedigree are all recent venues. 

Didn't ComicLink start out as an auction website pretty much from the get go?  

[LDarkseid1]

On 4/14/2022 at 8:48 AM, VintageComics said:

Thank you! 

I brokered the deal. I worked on it for some time before we could finalize it. 

I have to say, it's pretty surreal to turn a hobby I always loved, and used to get bullied and beat up for in grade school and middle school and turn it into something like this. 

Back in the 70s and 80s it wasn't cool to be a comic geek. It was considered fringe. We were thought of as losers and nerds and I even got beat up for it at times as a kid. My parents never understood it as they were always throwing my comic books out. 

I never backed down and always stood my ground, though and it's a little surreal now. 

My dad passed away in 2004 and before he passed he even apologized for taking such a negative view on my comic books. I suppose if he could see my life now he'd be impressed. 

Funny the things we carry with us. 

I do appreciate it very much. 

Kudos to you for brokering this bad boy of a book! One hell of a sale.

[fishbone]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:48 AM, VintageComics said:

Thank you! 

I brokered the deal. I worked on it for some time before we could finalize it. 

I have to say, it's pretty surreal to turn a hobby I always loved, and used to get bullied and beat up for in grade school and middle school and turn it into something like this. 

Back in the 70s and 80s it wasn't cool to be a comic geek. It was considered fringe. We were thought of as losers and nerds and I even got beat up for it at times as a kid. My parents never understood it as they were always throwing my comic books out. 

I never backed down and always stood my ground, though and it's a little surreal now. 

My dad passed away in 2004 and before he passed he even apologized for taking such a negative view on my comic books. I suppose if he could see my life now he'd be impressed. 

Funny the things we carry with us. 

I do appreciate it very much. 

And a fellow Canuck as well !    (you better be a Leaf fan, or I take it all back  ).  And your comments about the "stigma" of comic collecting ... I so hear you and  I'm still in the closet for the most part.

[rob_react]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:53 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

So my only question regarding this and I’m sure my judgement is in error, but isn’t there a leniency to slight CT when it comes to golden age compared to everything else? That’s why I assumed it made sense to still be in a blue holder, but just with the notation.

There has always been leniency for color touch on GA books. It's not a new policy. 

[fishbone]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:39 AM, VintageComics said:

People who are new to the hobby may not realize that auction houses have only been a primary means of selling comics in the last decade. Go back more than 10 years and there was only Heritage.

Comiclink, Comic Connect and even Pedigree are all recent venues. 

My goto venues in the early 2000's (when I started getting VERY serious with my collection) were Metro, eBay, Harley, boardies like Rick and Ben, and one golden age (rip-off!!) shop in Toronto that will remain unnamed................and all purchases were raw ......  the auction houses certainly changed the game about 10ish  years ago  

Edited April 14, 2022 by fishbone

[VintageComics]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:49 AM, lou_fine said:

Didn't ComicLink start out as an auction website pretty much from the get go?  

Pretty sure Comiclink started as an exchange site.

The auction portion came in the late 2000s or early 2010s once Heritage REALLY started to pick up. 

Remember, comics weren't HOT 15 years ago. They had hot genres but some stuff like GA Batman was dead in the water (relatively speaking).

It was around the time of the economic collapse of 2008 IIRC that comics started to noticeably heat up across the board, multiple Pedigrees were found (Twin City, Billy Wright, etc) and Comiclink and Connect started their auctions to compete with Heritage. 

Then Doug launched Pedigree. 

We had the conversations here, wondering how so many major auction houses could compete and prices actually got soft for a while for common stuff. Some thought the market was doomed and that many auction houses were the 'death knell' of the hobby.

Here we are. 

[rob_react]

On 4/14/2022 at 1:20 AM, VintageComics said:

I suppose I have to say something otherwise people will think I have something to hide.

Like all the witnesses who see all details in a public auction?

c'mon, no one could EVER manipulate a public auction