Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1957) Jack Kirby's Marvel Age has already begun! 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Jack Kirby did the cover and a story for DC's My Greatest Adventure #18.

Story ONE - Jack Kirby story, pencils and inks

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Showcase #11 - The Challengers of the Unknown were making their THIRD appearance in the first 11 issues of Showcase (3 of the last 6!), more than any other character. Jack Kirby plot and art. More great sci-fi and aliens!

Part ONE

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Showcase #11 - The Challengers of the Unknown were making their THIRD appearance in the first 11 issues of Showcase (3 of the last 6!), more than any other character. Jack Kirby plot and art. More great sci-fi and aliens!

Part TWO

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Showcase #11 - The Challengers of the Unknown were making their THIRD appearance in the first 11 issues of Showcase (3 of the last 6!), more than any other character. Jack Kirby plot and art. More great sci-fi and aliens!

Part THREE - and giant robot!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Showcase #11 - The Challengers of the Unknown were making their THIRD appearance in the first 11 issues of Showcase (3 of the last 6!), more than any other character. Jack Kirby plot and art. More great sci-fi and aliens!

Part FOUR

[shadroch]

I would give most Kirby-Lee FFs an A or better.  I'm not sure the Challengers would rate a B and most of the other stories might be C+ material.  A lot of the Kirby art seems uninspired, like he was mailing them in.  I hadn't seen much of the Ditko stuff before and I enjoyed some of it.  The funny thing is if I were to have a thread about just how vital Stan was to Marvel, I'd be posting the very same stories.

[EdMann2]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:08 PM, shadroch said:

I would give most Kirby-Lee FFs an A or better.  I'm not sure the Challengers would rate a B and most of the other stories might be C+ material.  A lot of the Kirby art seems uninspired, like he was mailing them in.  I hadn't seen much of the Ditko stuff before and I enjoyed some of it.  The funny thing is if I were to have a thread about just how vital Stan was to Marvel, I'd be posting the very same stories.

This comment just seems ridiculous to me....  A lot of Kirby's art seems "uninspired"?  Just look at the partial splash pages for each of the four parts of the story right above your comment - those seem VERY inspired to me, especially considering a lot of the comics coming out at the same time.  I don't know, man - seems to me you are trying too hard to discount Kirby.  Looking at those pages above it seems to me that Kirby was doing exciting, dynamic stories and art.  Plus, also unique for this time (at least for the comics I have read) the story fills a full issue, broken into chapters.  I don't know how many comics were structured that way at them time.  And the pacing is similar to Fantastic Four #1 a few years later.  Was Stan Lee doing any stories like this - or even close - at this time, or any time previous to this?  And you can argue that someone else "wrote" this story - but certainly Kirby was at least responsible for the pacing and structure and look of it...  Mailing it in?  You comment seems based on opinion, and in MY opinion, I disagree.

[shadroch]

On 7/29/2022 at 6:23 PM, EdMann2 said:

This comment just seems ridiculous to me....  A lot of Kirby's art seems "uninspired"?  Just look at the partial splash pages for each of the four parts of the story right above your comment - those seem VERY inspired to me, especially considering a lot of the comics coming out at the same time.  I don't know, man - seems to me you are trying too hard to discount Kirby.  Looking at those pages above it seems to me that Kirby was doing exciting, dynamic stories and art.  Plus, also unique for this time (at least for the comics I have read) the story fills a full issue, broken into chapters.  I don't know how many comics were structured that way at them time.  And the pacing is similar to Fantastic Four #1 a few years later.  Was Stan Lee doing any stories like this - or even close - at this time, or any time previous to this?  And you can argue that someone else "wrote" this story - but certainly Kirby was at least responsible for the pacing and structure and look of it...  Mailing it in?  You comment seems based on opinion, and in MY opinion, I disagree.

There are some fantastic panels, and even whole pages but a lot of it is pedestrian.  Of course it is opinion, but wasn't Kirby feuding with his editors at this time?

Last week I read Challengers 3 and FF 3.   I like the story and the art in FF3 better.  Again, my opinion, not a fact.   I've read a good bit of Simon and Kirby, I've read Kirby on his own, I've read Stan Lees 50s stuff, I've read Kirby after Lee.    I think the Lee/Kirby stuff is their pinnacle.  I know very few people who disagree. 

 

 

[Humpty-Dumpty]

Panel three on page two of the Challengers story, where the character is climbing the sheer Icey walls; i could not stop looking at it. Looks almost 3-D

[Humpty-Dumpty]

I thought Kirby's peak period as a comic artist was from around FF #40 to FF #70. Not sure what the corresponding years are, too lazy to look it up. Maybe 1966 to 1968? Anyone care to share their thoughts on what period was his best work?

[Prince Namor]

Kirby wasn’t fueding with anyone at DC at the time. Jack Schiff was feeding him regular assignments and especially happy with how the Challengers of the Unknown was turning out. 
 

Later in 1958 they would butt heads (and sue each other in court), but for now the relationship was just fine. 
 

Kirby’s art here isn’t ‘uninspired’. Kirby didn’t mail it in. That just wasn’t him. He didn’t use excuses like he was burnt out or it was a bad time - even though he COULD have - after what he’d been through with Crestwood and Mainline and now having to freelance again. Instead he did what he did best - he created magical worlds of entertainment. The same as he would do throughout his entire career. Regardless of who he worked with or didn’t. 
 

(Incidentally, there’s questions on who inked these Challengers stories - and a certain amount of confusion about it. SOMETHING was a bit different and some even feel it WAS Jack perhaps trying to lighten his work a bit to conform with DC’s more mainstream look. Wally Wood would begin on #4 of the regular series and that’d would be nice…) 
 

His best work, to me, (newsstand dates) was probably Summer of 1965 through summer 1966 and then December 1970 through December 1971, though honestly I can find work by him I appreciate all the way up through his later work. 
 

The discussion has never been, for me, about, is any of his work as good as his Stan Lee years. Stan’s already convinced the world it’s the best. And I enjoy most of it.

My point was to show how vital Kirby’s contribution was to the Marvel Method. To show just how absurd Stan’s ‘I created everything and then assigned the artist’ is. Even at this point - and there’s MORE to come you may not have seen or know of - it’s very clear that without Kirby - the Silver Age of Marvel would’ve never have happened. Without Stan - no way would it ever have been as successful or as popular or even as cultural significant… but without Jack it just wouldn’t have happened. 

[mrc]

Kirby never read the books after they went to print, so never knew just how much Stans writing added to the book. Romita mentions this in detail in an interview when talking about Stan........

"Oh, he’s a con man, but he did deliver. Anyone who says he didn’t earn what he’s got is not reading the facts. Believe me, he earned everything he gets. That’s why I never begrudged him getting any of the credit, and as far as I’m concerned, he can have his name above any of my stuff, anytime he wants. Every time I took a story in to Stan (and if Jack were reading it, he’d have felt the same way) I had only partial faith in my picture story. I worked it out and I believed in the characters, but I was only half-sure it was going to work. I always had my misgivings. By the time Stan would write it, I’d start to look at that story and say, “Son of a gun, it’s almost as though I planned it,” and I’d believe a hundredfold more in that story after he wrote it than before, and if Jack would’ve allowed himself to, he would’ve had the same satisfaction. I sincerely believe that.”

Jacks writing left a lot to be desired, and even the likes of Neal Adams and Roy Thomas (amongst others) felt Jack needed someone like Stan to make the books work. I read Jacks 4th World stuff back in the day and although the ideas were different, they really lacked something. No wonder a couple were cancelled within just 11 months. What happened to the Jack Kirby that was supposedly responsible for Marvels success?

 

As for shutting up shop in ’57: Joe Maneely had just died and either Jack came to Stan looking for work or Stan approached Jack about a week later, either way it doesn’t sound like the place was closing down. In an interview with the Kirby Collector, they asked Gil Kane “Did Jack save Marvel at that time?” Kane replies:

“He certainly helped. First of all I don’t think it would have been possible without Stan, because in the late 50s, Jack was doing all that monster stuff, and believe me, that didn’t make a difference in sales. That just barely kept them afloat. It wasn’t until they started doing the super-hero stuff that sales started to improve. Stan had a lot to do with the characterisation which was appropriate for the time. It was fresh and filled with mock irreverence. And that’s not Jack, that was Stan. Of course Jack was doing superb work” but it doesn’t sound like Jack was saving it.

Stan was definitely liable to take more credit than perhaps he was due at times, but when you read interviews with the majority of the bullpen, they certainly give Stan more than his due. In fact, in Lee & Kirby: The Wonder Years, the author says this towards the end:

“So here’s the paradox: all the Lee-bashing Kirby-centric zealots who claim that Stan practically rode Jack’s coattails to fame and fortune *weren’t there at the time*. All the Marvel insiders that we interviewed – who *were* there – are quite adamant that the “Anti-Stan” legions have a warped sense of reality................

[Zonker]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

Kirby never read the books after they went to print,

Is that accurate?  Do we know at this point what Kirby believed he was getting paid for when he did those Challengers of the Unknown?  Was he thinking he was being paid for fully writing and penciling it, and then Dave Wood came behind him and re-dialogued it without Kirby's knowledge?  Surely the powers-that-be at DC would resist paying twice for the writing of the same issue.  Unless Kirby's page rate at that time was for plot + pencils only.  I just wonder because it seems in the pre-Stan Lee years we can find examples of Kirby doing it all, Kirby working from someone else's --script, and Kirby doing plot & pencils, with somebody else providing dialogue.  

Edited July 30, 2022 by Zonker

[Prince Namor]

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

Kirby never read the books after they went to print, so never knew just how much Stans writing added to the book. Romita mentions this in detail in an interview when talking about Stan........

"Oh, he’s a con man, but he did deliver. Anyone who says he didn’t earn what he’s got is not reading the facts. Believe me, he earned everything he gets. That’s why I never begrudged him getting any of the credit, and as far as I’m concerned, he can have his name above any of my stuff, anytime he wants. Every time I took a story in to Stan (and if Jack were reading it, he’d have felt the same way) I had only partial faith in my picture story. I worked it out and I believed in the characters, but I was only half-sure it was going to work. I always had my misgivings. By the time Stan would write it, I’d start to look at that story and say, “Son of a gun, it’s almost as though I planned it,” and I’d believe a hundredfold more in that story after he wrote it than before, and if Jack would’ve allowed himself to, he would’ve had the same satisfaction. I sincerely believe that.”

Once again, who's debating that Stan added something to the books? Stan was good at what he did, but if Kirby hadn't come along, he would've been a part of just another comic publisher that bit the dust in the late 50's. 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

Jacks writing left a lot to be desired

That's your opinion. I've enjoyed the stories reprinted here that Jack wrote himself. They seem well written to me. 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

, and even the likes of Neal Adams and Roy Thomas (amongst others) felt Jack needed someone like Stan to make the books work. I read Jacks 4th World stuff back in the day and although the ideas were different, they really lacked something.

Once again that's your opinion. To me, those 4th World books didn't lack anything. They were packed with action from the get go. 

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

No wonder a couple were cancelled within just 11 months. What happened to the Jack Kirby that was supposedly responsible for Marvels success?

He went to work for a publisher with ideas far too big for them to handle.

Let's look at what Jack did. He started a WHOLE NEW UNIVERSE of CHARACTERS for DC Comics. Writing AND Drawing them. 

He juggled New Gods, Forever People, Jimmy Olsen and Miracle Man.

Who else in comics was doing that?

NO ONE. 

And when DC wasn't happy with it, they cancelled it. The same company (at the same time) that cancelled Adams and O'Neil on Green Lantern/Green Arrow. Was something lacking there? Did it need Stan Lee to make it successful? It got cancelled after all.... Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson's Swamp Thing only lasted 10 issues. Was something lacking there? Did it need Stan Lee to make it successful? It didn't last after all.... (DC even took Nick Cardy off Teen Titans and made him the inker. WTF? He still did covers but was inking Bob Brown and George Tuska on the interiors. Carmine made some dumb decisions.)

So what did Kirby do?

He gave them Kamandi that would go on for 59 issues and the Demon for 16 issues.

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

As for shutting up shop in ’57: Joe Maneely had just died and either Jack came to Stan looking for work or Stan approached Jack about a week later, either way it doesn’t sound like the place was closing down. In an interview with the Kirby Collector, they asked Gil Kane “Did Jack save Marvel at that time?” Kane replies:

“He certainly helped. First of all I don’t think it would have been possible without Stan, because in the late 50s, Jack was doing all that monster stuff, and believe me, that didn’t make a difference in sales. That just barely kept them afloat. It wasn’t until they started doing the super-hero stuff that sales started to improve. Stan had a lot to do with the characterisation which was appropriate for the time. It was fresh and filled with mock irreverence. And that’s not Jack, that was Stan. Of course Jack was doing superb work” but it doesn’t sound like Jack was saving it.

Gil's not completely wrong in this but of course, when he said it, he didn't have the information we NOW have. Jack's monster books DID sell at first. We have the Comichron numbers to prove it. NOT in a way that was awesome, but in a way that DID keep Marvel's doors open. But over time they cooled and we can easily trace this in the numbers. When the numbers begin to fall, again Goodman threatens to shut it all down, and Kirby makes one last pitch to try superheroes. 

Artist Drew Friedman: My dad actually worked at Magazine Management, which was the company that owned Marvel Comics in the fifties and sixties, so he knew Stan Lee pretty well. He knew him before the superhero revival in the early sixties, when Stan Lee had one office, one secretary and that was it. The story was that Martin Goodman who ran the company was trying to phase him out because the comics weren't selling too well.

Dick Ayers: Things started to get really bad in 1958. One day when I went in Stan looked at me and said, "Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn't even say hello to me." He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, "You know, it's like a sinking ship and we're the rats, and we've got to get off." When I told Stan I was going to work for the post office, he said, "Before you do that let me send you something that you"ll ink."

Larry Lieber: It was just an alcove, with one window, and Stan was doing all the corrections himself; he had no assistants. Later I think Flo [Steinberg, secretary] and Sol Brodsky [production manager] came in.

Flo Steinberg: After a couple of interviews, I was sent to this publishing company called Magazine Management. There I met a fellow by the name of Stan Lee, who was looking for what they called then a gal Friday.... Stan had a one-man office on a huge floor of other offices, which housed the many parts of the magazine division.... Magazine Management published Marvel Comics as well as a lot of men's magazines, movie magazines, crossword puzzle books, romance magazines, confession magazines, detective magazines....

Romita: There was a huge bullpen when I worked there in the 50's. And this was even after he'd laid off a lot of people. Gene Colan, John Buscema, John Severin (who had all been on staff). They were gone by the time I got there.

When I went back (1965) there was no bullpen at all. There were only three people there Stan, Flo, and Sol.

When Flo was hired 1964 it had been only Stan with Sol working in the office part time as freelance production help.

In THE ART OF JACK KIRBY, Kirby says he spent "a day" convincing Goodman to give super heroes a chance. In several interviews Kirby mentions he had been prodding Lee to give the costumed hero genre a chance but was being ignored.

Michael J. Vassallo: "When Stan was Goodman’s only employee in the comic book division, it was because his entire comic book line imploded due the loss of his distributor. This was April of 1957. He cut down from nearly 75 titles down to 16, and the 16 were filled with nothing but inventory for nearly an entire year. Everyone was fired. There was no production staff because there was no production. When the inventory began to run out, Goodman allowed the purchase of new teen humor and western material. Stan wrote the teen and the main western characters. This plodded on until June of 1958 when Joe Maneely died.

Within one or two days of Maneely’s death (and I know this because job number analysis puts it at 2 days at most) Jack was back and the line immediately expanded to include new science fantasy titles like Strange Worlds, Tales to Astonish and Tales of Suspense. Additionally, Strange Tales and a revived Journey Into Mystery converted from inventory to new science fantasy material. Now Martin Goodman hated science Fiction and it failed with him at every level since his pulp days. Evidence point to the fact that it was Jack Kirby who pushed this new direction because it was what he knew best. It was what he was doing elsewhere at DC until very recently, as well as his syndicated Sky Masters strip. He saw it as the way to go. So Goodman relented and the new titles were launched. Stan did not write any of these stories. He was busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and their ilk, as well as Two-Gun Kid and Kid Colt. (Only since 1958 did he write these western characters. From 1948 to 1957 they were written by other Timely/Atlas writers). The first year’s scripts came from re-tooled, undrawn inventory sitting in a pile since early 1957. I’ve identified some of these from Carl Wessler’s work records, and there were a ton of writers’ scripts piled up when the work stoppage went into effect in April/57.

After a year the inventoried scripts ran out and the line changed to the monster comics we all know in 1959-60. Again, Stan didn’t -script any of them. He was too busy writing Millie the Model, Patsy Walker and the two western characters. Jack Kirby’s lead stories were mostly plotted by himself. Larry Lieber says he typed up scripts but my feeling is he was typing up scripts Jack had already plotted. Jack, had been turning out tons of sci-fi and monsters on his own for years. Why would he need a novice writer (which Larry was) to funnel him story ideas?? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

So this plods on until sales slip and Jack begins pushing for superheroes to return, as he said he was since 1958, and getting nowhere. He brought in a blitzkrieg of new characters, the first one which was a super powered take on a book he had done for DC, the Challengers of the Unknown. The rest, as we say, is history. After deep diving into the published history and careers of both creators for 30 years now, there’s no other way I can see this coming about. I do not believe the official version told since the Origins books in 1974. From a factual historical data perspective, they make no sense whatsoever. Neither does a side by side comparison of both creator’s entire careers. You’ve got to approach this like a course in medieval comparative literature, coming in with no set agenda and allowing the historical published evidence to help guide your deductions, not emotions."

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

Stan was definitely liable to take more credit than perhaps he was due at times, but when you read interviews with the majority of the bullpen, they certainly give Stan more than his due. In fact, in Lee & Kirby: The Wonder Years, the author says this towards the end:

No one's denying Stan 'added something' and that it was vital to the success of it.

On 7/30/2022 at 6:35 AM, mrc said:

“So here’s the paradox: all the Lee-bashing Kirby-centric zealots who claim that Stan practically rode Jack’s coattails to fame and fortune *weren’t there at the time*. All the Marvel insiders that we interviewed – who *were* there – are quite adamant that the “Anti-Stan” legions have a warped sense of reality................

You're going to make me post a WHOLE bunch of quotes from people who WERE there that say the exact opposite. 

[Prince Namor]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:07 AM, Zonker said:

Is that accurate?  Do we know at this point what Kirby believed he was getting paid for when he did those Challengers of the Unknown?  Was he thinking he was being paid for fully writing and penciling it, and then Dave Wood came behind him and re-dialogued it without Kirby's knowledge?  Surely the powers-that-be at DC would resist paying twice for the writing of the same issue.  Unless Kirby's page rate at that time was for plot + pencils only.  I just wonder because it seems in the pre-Stan Lee years we can find examples of Kirby doing it all, Kirby working from someone else's ---script, and Kirby doing plot & pencils, with somebody else providing dialogue.  

Kirby may have just been getting his page rate while at DC and happy with it, as it would've been easily the highest in the business at the time. It's most likely why he left Atlas to concentrate more on the work available to him at DC. He could do half the work at DC and still get paid more money. 

[Prince Namor]

WOW!

In the latest Jack Kirby Collector (#83), Will Murray has an article on the lack of credit Challengers of the Unknown gets for helping jump start the Silver Age! Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks so!

 

 In Jack Kirby Collector #78, I made the bold assertion that Joe Simon and Jack Kirby’s “Challengers of the Unknown,” an unpublished feature that had been orphaned with the 1956 demise of Mainline comics, kickstarted the Silver Age of Comics by demonstrating that a team of adventure heroes could sell.

Many before me noticed the obvious: that Kirby’s Fantastic Four was a super-powered version of his Challengers of the Unknown and not simply Marvel’s

response to the sales success of the Justice League of America. Both groups took on the challenges of the Space Age— space travel, aliens, monsters, time travel, and advanced technology in the wrong hands––in book-length sto- ries. Their parallel crash-landing origins and similar jumpsuit outfits make this undeniable.

However, few picked up on the undeniable fact that the Challengers triggered a significant trend at DC/ National Comics, one that for some reason rival publishers failed to capitalize on.

 

(He means it directly influenced Suicide Squad, Rip Taylor, Sea Devils, Cave Carson,,,)

 

AND...

 

 

GOODMAN MISSES BADLY

How Martin Goodman failed to pick up on this trend is beyond me. Maybe it was because each of these groups had such different back- grounds. The normally canny copycat publisher failed to realize that a trend had developed.

The oft-told tale that during a golf game with DC’s Jack Liebowitz, Goodman learned of their huge circulation success with the Justice League of America comic book, has been fairly well debunked. But for years, it was believed that the Fantastic Four was a direct response to JLA’s soaring sales.

A much more likely explanation is that when Jack Kirby pitched the Fantastic Four to Stan Lee, he revealed something that Lee may not have known: that Challengers of the Unknown was a breakout hit, and DC was busy reformulating it any way they could.

 

It was probably from Kirby, not Lee, that Goodman learned that the Challengers represented a major comic book trend––the adventure team pitted against super-scientific threats.

 

Well... THAT and Goodman wasn't really wanting to do much more than publish what he KNEW at the time... Westerns, a couple of Stan's dumb blonde books, and the Sci-Fi stuff Kirby had talked him into. 

 

And this bombshell:

“According to Irwin Donenfeld, Challengers of the Unknown led directly for Justice League of America to be tested in The Brave and the Bold. And the false corporate myth that JLA led to Fantastic Four is absurdly erroneous.”

 

 

WOW!

There's more... LOTS more, but you'll have to read it there:

https://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=98_57&products_id=1650

 

[Prince Namor]

In that same Jack Kirby Collector is this great news as well!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Steve Ditko would do the cover, and 4 stories (pencils and inks) for Charlton's  Out of this World #6 - All of them written by Joe Gill

First panel of page two is the hidden face with multiple masks motif that Ditko would later use to co-create Marvel’s Chameleon in The Amazing Spider-Man...

Story ONE:

Edited July 31, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Steve Ditko would do the cover, and 4 stories (pencils and inks) for Charlton's  Out of this World #6 - All of them written by Joe Gill

Story TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER OF 1957!

Steve Ditko would do the cover, and 4 stories (pencils and inks) for Charlton's  Out of this World #6 - All of them written by Joe Gill

Story THREE: