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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1957) Jack Kirby's Marvel Age has already begun!
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Started by Prince Namor,

331 posts in this topic

Humpty-Dumpty

Humpty-Dumpty

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On 7/30/2022 at 12:08 PM, Prince Namor said:

WOW!

In the latest Jack Kirby Collector (#83), Will Murray has an article on the lack of credit Challengers of the Unknown gets for helping jump start the Silver Age! Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks so!

 

 In Jack Kirby Collector #78, I made the bold assertion that Joe Simon and Jack Kirby’s “Challengers of the Unknown,” an unpublished feature that had been orphaned with the 1956 demise of Mainline comics, kickstarted the Silver Age of Comics by demonstrating that a team of adventure heroes could sell.

Many before me noticed the obvious: that Kirby’s Fantastic Four was a super-powered version of his Challengers of the Unknown and not simply Marvel’s

response to the sales success of the Justice League of America. Both groups took on the challenges of the Space Age— space travel, aliens, monsters, time travel, and advanced technology in the wrong hands––in book-length sto- ries. Their parallel crash-landing origins and similar jumpsuit outfits make this undeniable.

However, few picked up on the undeniable fact that the Challengers triggered a significant trend at DC/ National Comics, one that for some reason rival publishers failed to capitalize on.

 

(He means it directly influenced Suicide Squad, Rip Taylor, Sea Devils, Cave Carson,,,)

 

AND...

 

 

GOODMAN MISSES BADLY

How Martin Goodman failed to pick up on this trend is beyond me. Maybe it was because each of these groups had such different back- grounds. The normally canny copycat publisher failed to realize that a trend had developed.

The oft-told tale that during a golf game with DC’s Jack Liebowitz, Goodman learned of their huge circulation success with the Justice League of America comic book, has been fairly well debunked. But for years, it was believed that the Fantastic Four was a direct response to JLA’s soaring sales.

A much more likely explanation is that when Jack Kirby pitched the Fantastic Four to Stan Lee, he revealed something that Lee may not have known: that Challengers of the Unknown was a breakout hit, and DC was busy reformulating it any way they could.

 

It was probably from Kirby, not Lee, that Goodman learned that the Challengers represented a major comic book trend––the adventure team pitted against super-scientific threats.

 

Well... THAT and Goodman wasn't really wanting to do much more than publish what he KNEW at the time... Westerns, a couple of Stan's dumb blonde books, and the Sci-Fi stuff Kirby had talked him into. 

 

And this bombshell:

“According to Irwin Donenfeld, Challengers of the Unknown led directly for Justice League of America to be tested in The Brave and the Bold. And the false corporate myth that JLA led to Fantastic Four is absurdly erroneous.”

 

 

WOW!

There's more... LOTS more, but you'll have to read it there:

https://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=98_57&products_id=1650

 

I have long known that the golf story was nonsense. I did not realize that Challengers was breakout seller, nor that it led to the JLA. In fact I am not so sure I beleive that Challengers led to the JLA, although I accept it may have been selling well. Julius Schwartz was humming along with his new versions of Flash, GL, etc., and I think the JLA was just a natural next step for him and DC. 

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Humpty-Dumpty

Humpty-Dumpty

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Is there any truth to the tale that because the Shiff - Kirby lawsuit led to Kirby being let go by DC that he was out of work for a month or two? Also, Kirby claimed that when he joined Atlas Good man and Stan Lee was just about ready to close the door, rely almost entirely on reprints, and that Kirby urged them not to, and was largely responsible for them continuing the publishing of new material and reviving the line. 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 7/31/2022 at 3:38 PM, Humpty-Dumpty said:

I have long known that the golf story was nonsense. I did not realize that Challengers was breakout seller, nor that it led to the JLA. In fact I am not so sure I beleive that Challengers led to the JLA, although I accept it may have been selling well. Julius Schwartz was humming along with his new versions of Flash, GL, etc., and I think the JLA was just a natural next step for him and DC. 

Actually, Green Lantern's first appearance hit the stands in July of 1959. JLA in Brave and the Bold #28 hit in Dec of 1959. Meaning that, when work was begun on BntB #28, in September... they hadn't even gotten sales numbers back for Showcase #22 and Lanterns first appearance (which they wouldn't see until Oct). 

By JUNE of 1959, Challengers was already on it's 9th issue (Flash is only on it's 4th), and has inspired DC to do Rip Hunter and his Team of Time Travelers in Showcase #20 (2 issues before GL), and Suicide Squad in Brave and the Bold. (and they would continue to do so with Cave Carson and his team in Brave and the Bold #31 and the Sea Devils team in Showcase #27). 

The reaction to Flash had obviously been positive and certainly influenced the decision to do Green Lantern and even JLA - like you say, it just seems a natural step - I don't think there's any question they WERE influential in that. It's always been recognized that way. But Jack had a TEAM of adventurers, doing FULL LENGTH stories... something NOT done at the time... and THAT influence has been understated for all this time and is simply now being rightly pointed out. 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 7/31/2022 at 3:43 PM, Humpty-Dumpty said:

Is there any truth to the tale that because the Shiff - Kirby lawsuit led to Kirby being let go by DC that he was out of work for a month or two?

As you'll see when I get to 1958, there's actually overlap there. There isn't a single month when Jack doesn't have work released to the newsstands and in fact, from July of 1958 to December of 1958, he has 4 to 6 books every single month... conversely... 

On 7/31/2022 at 3:43 PM, Humpty-Dumpty said:

Also, Kirby claimed that when he joined Atlas Good man and Stan Lee was just about ready to close the door, rely almost entirely on reprints, and that Kirby urged them not to, and was largely responsible for them continuing the publishing of new material and reviving the line. 

... Marvel has ZERO titles released to the newsstand in August of 1958, and the following month they have Tales to Astonish #1 (featuring a Kirby cover and lead story + a Ditko story!), Strange Worlds #1 (featuring a Kirby cover and lead story + a Ditko story!), and Tales of Suspense #1. Goodman notoriously hated Sci-Fi and felt it never did anything in sales for him, and yet here we have the return of Kirby and three new #1 Sci-Fi titles. 

The books that got canceled were Marines in Battle , Navy Combat, and Stan Lee's Homer the Happy Ghost and Miss America. 

It's interesting that the story is always presented as Jack came to Marvel NEEDING work, and they took him in. Jack could've continued to get work from Harvey Comics (Al Harvey loved both Jack and Joe), or he could've continued to get work from Joe Simon at Archie Comics, or kept doing freelance for Crestwood/Prize (he was), but he saw an opportunity for regular work at Marvel and took it, though he'd continue to freelance even then...

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1957

For October Stan Lee wrote:

 

Millie the Model #83 with Dan DeCarlo art 

Homer the Happy Ghost #18 with Dan DeCarlo art

Patsy Walker #75 with Al Hartley art (Stan wrote a few stories for it)

Two Gun Kid #40 - one Two Gun Kid story with Joe Maneely

Kid Colt Outlaw #77 - Four Kid Colt stories with Jack Keller

 

Interesting note: Charlton really tried to take advantage of things when Atlas imploded... they'd averaged about 14-17 titles a month for the last year, but... in September - a month after Atlas' implosion they released their all time high 37 titles that month! They'd release 20 in October, 24 in November, 22 in December and 24 in January, before settling back into their regular schedule. I guess it didn't work out for them!

Atlas released 8 titles in October.

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