PGM Silver Surfer; Vol 1 #15 - Not proceeding with grading as damaged by CCS (Got my raw book back today) 3 3

[scburdet]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:10 PM, Deutero said:

they’ll have covered themselves in their T&Cs

Yeah, I haven't submitted "regular" but there's a disclaimer you have to click through when asking for CCS for sig series books. Basically, it says damage could occur, yada yada yada. I've had no issues on books returned so far, but I have a couple coming back from the Conway signing that graders' notes mention detached staples. I feel like I would have noticed a detached staple during inspection and packing, but I can't be 100% sure b/c it predated me photographing each book in great detail. Thankfully, I have good documentary photos for everything else pending service. My understanding is CGC won't let anyone else handle signed books, so maybe the more experienced people work there b/c of the added ink? 

Really sucks about that book though. Hopefully, it still looks better than you fear.

[Deutero]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:15 PM, scburdet said:

Yeah, I haven't submitted "regular" but there's a disclaimer you have to click through when asking for CCS for sig series books. Basically, it says damage could occur, yada yada yada. I've had no issues on books returned so far, but I have a couple coming back from the Conway signing that graders' notes mention detached staples. I feel like I would have noticed a detached staple during inspection and packing, but I can't be 100% sure b/c it predated me photographing each book in great detail. Thankfully, I have good documentary photos for everything else pending service. My understanding is CGC won't let anyone else handle signed books, so maybe the more experienced people work there b/c of the added ink? 

Really sucks about that book though. Hopefully, it still looks better than you fear.

Yeah I checked the waiver bit again after posting on here.

However the comment by  @joeypost has got me thinking. There’s no mention in any of the CCS info (that I can find) about wet cleaning or moisture being used in cleaning or pressing process. Also they specifically mention in their FAQ that CGC consider wet cleaning as restoration.

I’m guessing the wet and dry cycle they mentioned is part of their pressing process but I’ll probably raise this with them when they eventually reply to my response to their email.

 

[joeypost]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:40 PM, zzutak said:

"No experience necessary"    

I would apply…

[zzutak]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:00 PM, joeypost said:

I would apply

Not to rain on your parade, but I have a strong suspicion you'd be deemed "overqualified"   

[KirbyTown]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:57 PM, joeypost said:

Wet and dry cycle?

You haven't upgraded your kit? 

Edited August 26, 2022 by KirbyTown

[KirbyTown]

On 8/26/2022 at 2:38 PM, Deutero said:

I’m guessing the wet and dry cycle they mentioned is part of their pressing process

They'll humidify the books if they want, but that laundry room terminology is definitely their own. They probably just mean someone tore the book while it was damp.

Do clarify with them though! It's rare to have ANY insight into their ground-breaking (book-breaking?) proprietary techniques!

Edited August 26, 2022 by KirbyTown

[KirbyTown]

On 8/26/2022 at 1:40 PM, zzutak said:

"No experience necessary"    

No longer listed...

Looks like those Production Operator - Pressing jobs went quick!

[joeypost]

On 8/26/2022 at 7:28 PM, KirbyTown said:

No longer listed...

Looks like those Production Operator - Pressing jobs went quick!

Training their future competition.

[RobHW]

omg, I am so sorry to hear that.  That's about a $300 difference in FMV.  I haven't had any silver age C&P because I figure fellow collectors generally would rather they be untouched - I have quite a few from my days collecting in the mid 70's I'm just now slabbing. 

That back spine was really soiled.  I guess that's what led it to reacting badly.  I would have been tempted to have it cleaned, too.  You've done us all a great service by sharing your experience.  Thank you for that.

 

Edited August 28, 2022 by RobHW

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:19 PM, Deutero said:

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

I submit via CGC UK (I send my submissions to them in London and they send to Florida) so I think a US presser would only work if they can also submit to CGC. I got some cleaning supplies recently and have done a bit of practice on some low value comics and I was thinking of getting a press in the future, so I might just learn myself.

I've told CCS I don't want it graded now and also asked them if work had started on my other comics (as if it hasn't I just want them to go directly to CGC). The other 3 comics were FF #6 (posted on here a while back), FF #67 (probably around a 6.0) and a very nice copy of Batman #181 that was from a Bat Pac so it was unread. I'm most concerned about the Batman #181 as that could be a big hit on value if it was to be damaged and dropped 2 points!

 

You should check out this thread from 2013 on the Cole Schave books. It is 132 pages long, but it is well worth the time needed to read the entire thread.

That was a large collection of high-grade silver-age Marvels basically ruined by CCS. The books experienced noticeable cover shrinkage from the pressing process.

Silver-age Marvels usually cannot be pressed without experiencing cover shrinkage. If you look at a pressed silver-age Marvel, you will often see the first page sticking out past the cover, even if it's only slightly.

Prior to 2013 I didn't see many books being completely ruined by CCS (although it has always common for pressing to result in minor damage fairly often). It seems that CCS wanted to increase their throughput by decreasing their cycle time, so they are probably using much higher humidity and higher temperatures than they did in the old days, which means that many more books are being ruined.

Edited September 3, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[grendelbo]

On 9/2/2022 at 9:05 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

You should check out this thread from 2013 on the Cole Schave books. It is 132 pages long, but it is well worth the time needed to read the entire thread.

Early in this thread an Avengers 1 CGC fiasco is mentioned. Anyone know more about it? 

[jimbo_7071]

On 9/3/2022 at 9:31 AM, grendelbo said:

Early in this thread an Avengers 1 CGC fiasco is mentioned. Anyone know more about it? 

 

I don't remember for certain. It could be a reference to the Northland copy of Avengers #1, which was sold by Pedigree Comics in 2012 for $185,000 in 9.4.

The same book was re-sold through HA in August of 2013 and went for $95,600 at auction. Aside from looking every bit like an 8.5 despite the number in the corner, it's also possible that the book was "face jobbed."

A "face job" is when the spine (and spine tics) of a comic are shifted to the back cover during pressing in order to get a higher grade. I don't know whether that was done to this book, but the spine tics certainly do look worse on the back cover.

@namisgr and @MasterChief would probably remember if that's what was being discussed.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 8/26/2022 at 11:54 AM, Deutero said:

 

@grendelbo@scburdet@MrRoboto@jcjames@Mars76@CJ Design@Galen130

 

Received this email from CCS today

"I have some unfortunate news regarding your Silver Surfer #15 (4/70). Your book incurred some minor damage during pressing. The book had some color lift off between the wet and dry cycle on the back cover along the spine. This was just due to the book’s reaction to the process.

 

Our CCS Operations Manager would like to know if you still want the book graded and slabbed? He said the book would have been a 9.0 but is now closer to a 7.0."

 

I'm very upset about this, first time using CCS and I won't be using them again. In total I sent 4 comics to CCS and now i'm concerned about the other 3 (particularly as 2 of the 3 are much higher value). I would have used a different company but being a UK collector my options are limited (either no insurance or extremely long wait times). I've asked CCS to just send it back to me as I only sent it in as I was optimistic of a high grade.

Absolutely gutted

 

 

 

There’s no colour to lift along the spine of the back cover 

And dropping a book from a 9.0 to 7.0 isn’t “minor damage”

CCS

[Deutero]

@grendelbo@scburdet@MrRoboto@jcjames@Mars76@CJ Design@Galen130

 

Update - Got this back today and thought you guys might appreciate seeing it now.

 

To be fair to CCS, their customer service rep/claims specialist was really good. I asked them to stop my other 3 comics from being pressed. FF #67 had already been pressed (7.0) but FF #6 (2.5) and Batman #181 (7.0) were just verified by CCS and sent on to CGC. In the end we agreed a $200 credit on my account for the damaged caused to this issue.

 

Quite a bit of damage to the back but surprisingly also on the top front which wasn't there before!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Deutero
Photos were upside down!

[Galen130]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:36 AM, Deutero said:

@grendelbo@scburdet@MrRoboto@jcjames@Mars76@CJ Design@Galen130

 

Update - Got this back today and thought you guys might appreciate seeing it now.

 

To be fair to CCS, their customer service rep/claims specialist was really good. I asked them to stop my other 3 comics from being pressed. FF #67 had already been pressed (7.0) but FF #6 (2.5) and Batman #181 (7.0) were just verified by CCS and sent on to CGC. In the end we agreed a $200 credit on my account for the damaged caused to this issue.

 

Quite a bit of damage to the back but surprisingly also on the top front which wasn't there before!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JESUS H. CHRIST!!!! 

[jcjames]

On 10/11/2022 at 9:36 AM, Deutero said:

@grendelbo@scburdet@MrRoboto@jcjames@Mars76@CJ Design@Galen130

 

Update - Got this back today and thought you guys might appreciate seeing it now.

 

To be fair to CCS, their customer service rep/claims specialist was really good. I asked them to stop my other 3 comics from being pressed. FF #67 had already been pressed (7.0) but FF #6 (2.5) and Batman #181 (7.0) were just verified by CCS and sent on to CGC. In the end we agreed a $200 credit on my account for the damaged caused to this issue.

 

Quite a bit of damage to the back but surprisingly also on the top front which wasn't there before!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OMG, they butchered it! 

That is NOT a 7.0 with that much structural damage to the back cover, and now to the top as well. 

The last 9.0 sale was $640 in May 2022, 

The last "7.0" sale was $200 in Aug 2022 (and this is NOT a 7.0 if they graded it)

Difference of $440 value minimum.

So they tossed you LESS THAN HALF of your lost value (not even counting shipping/grading fees and your aggravation)

There is no way in HELLL I would ever send them anything ever again. 

So sorry to hear you had to endure this - what a clusterfk on the part of CCS! 

 

 

 

ETA: Math is hard

Edited October 11, 2022 by jcjames

[Deutero]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:00 PM, jcjames said:

 

OMG, they butchered it! 

That is NOT a 7.0 with that much structural damage to the back cover, and now to the top as well. 

The last 9.0 sale was $640 in May 2022, 

The last "7.0" sale was $200 in Aug 2022 (and this is NOT a 7.0 if they graded it)

Difference of $420 value minimum.

So they tossed you LESS THAN HALF of your lost value (not even counting shipping/grading fees and your aggravation)

There is no way in HELLL I would ever send them anything ever again. 

So sorry to hear you had to endure this - what a clusterfk on the part of CCS! 

It was my first time using CCS as well.

I’m in the UK so less pressers around and the good ones have extremely long wait times!

If it was any other comic I would have been a lot more PO and my immediate concern was the other 3 I also sent to CCS.

From memory this issue cost me around £100-150 raw. I only sent it in as it was high grade. The rest of my SS vol 1 are all raw except for #1.

They didn’t send me any pictures of the damage but I was guessing it wasn’t “minor” as they claimed because they reckoned it had dropped from a 9.0 to a 7.0. Definitely wasn’t expecting it to me this much though else I would’ve asked for more credit.

They did clean the back cover well though, perhaps too well as I’m guessing  the damage was caused in the press by some kind of reaction to whatever they clean it with.

Lesson learnt!
 

 

 

 

[scburdet]

I had two small tape pulls (one I never should have missed, the other quite minor) on the back of an otherwise 8.0-9.0, and it was down to a 7.0. I'd judge this to be at least 10× the area of damage. I would put this at a 4.5/5.0 now. So definitely closer to 7.0 than 9.0, but also closer to 6.0 and 4.0. Not to defend them really, but they must be pressing 100s of books every day and even under ideal circumstances there's bound to be some failure rate. I've definitely been fortunate with the sig series w/CCS I've done, although I suspect two staple detachments happened during pressing. Perhaps they were weak already, which is fine. I expect the guy I'm using for regular submission to alert me if a books isn't a good pressing candidate and I don't think CCS is doing that. I've also decided not to send CCS any high value books, particularly older ones. I'll leave the ones were I could lose hundreds of dollars to someone I can actually see and talk to.

Tough break on this one. It was a very sharp book. I guess it still looks mostly OK from the front.

[ThothAmon]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:00 PM, jcjames said:

So they tossed you LESS THAN HALF of your lost value

Maybe or $200 was what it was valued at by owner on the submission form?  Did deutero mention?  He did say they “agreed” so I’m not feeling the indignity. 

[Deutero]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:54 PM, scburdet said:

I had two small tape pulls (one I never should have missed, the other quite minor) on the back of an otherwise 8.0-9.0, and it was down to a 7.0. I'd judge this to be at least 10× the area of damage. I would put this at a 4.5/5.0 now. So definitely closer to 7.0 than 9.0, but also closer to 6.0 and 4.0. Not to defend them really, but they must be pressing 100s of books every day and even under ideal circumstances there's bound to be some failure rate. I've definitely been fortunate with the sig series w/CCS I've done, although I suspect two staple detachments happened during pressing. Perhaps they were weak already, which is fine. I expect the guy I'm using for regular submission to alert me if a books isn't a good pressing candidate and I don't think CCS is doing that. I've also decided not to send CCS any high value books, particularly older ones. I'll leave the ones were I could lose hundreds of dollars to someone I can actually see and talk to.

Tough break on this one. It was a very sharp book. I guess it still looks mostly OK from the front.

I didn’t think they were going to offer me any compensation as I thought it would be covered by their T&Cs and basically a case of mess happens.

I had sent in 25 comics total with 4 going to CCS so the credit helped towards that plus it was more than I had paid for this issue raw anyway.

Annoyingly I got all the comics back about a month later than I could of, as initially they invoiced me for C&P and grading for all 4 issues and they didn’t apply the credit. Took about 3 weeks to get the revised invoice, admittedly there was a hurricane at the end but I had already been waiting 2 weeks at that point.

Also to be fair when I asked them to pull the other 3 comics from pressing, they did say that they’d already rejected my FF#6 as being too fragile.