C2E2 Variant Drama 25 25

[Coverless 9.8]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, CGC Mike said:

We feel it is important to provide transparency on how CGC arrived at our method of certifying Clayton Crain’s Ultimate Fallout comics with the attached acetate covers. For us, this was an unprecedented item to grade. After Mr. Crain spoke with us prior to C2E2, the rules we applied to his books:

 

• The additional cover had to be created by an established artist in the industry.
• The comic to which the cover was attached had to contain a cover by that same artist.
• A copy of the comic with the attached cover had to be submitted to us for inspection prior to certifying any copies.

 

So if an acetate by the same artist as the cover artist is added to a comic, but the CGC brain trust deems the artist, 'not established', what then?!  The fact that they are the artist on the original printed book isn't sufficient?!  Since your grading criteria isn't public knowledge, I suppose there's no reason what constitutes, 'established', should be either!  

Edited August 13, 2022 by Coverless 9.8

[Skwerl]

All of this nonsense has just been stewing and stinking for the past couple days, but where I'm at now is I just don't understand how CGC can be so willing to make exceptions on this stuff, no matter what their reasoning is. Like, whatever sort of grading company you want to run, there's no escaping the fact that as much as we cry when our books come back shy of 9.8, we all want to know that the grades are earned, that the grading methods are strict, that there's absolutely no monkey business. When something like this abomination shows up at CGC, how in the multiverse does the decision wind up being to let it slide? Who wants to be the grading company known for letting dubious or suspicious things slide like this? No one picks CGC because they're the fun guys who grade wacky invisible comics. How is any amount of money from some bobo fly-by-night publisher like Black Flag worth a decision that isn't the conservative route? How is it not that every decision made by CGC errs on the side of caution? If you're extra strict on a weird book and/or give it a green label, well, you can always change your policy if it turns out you were wrong, and customers can resubmit for the upgrade. But why would you risk certifying something or giving it a high grade if there's even the slightest hint of impropriety? There's no way to get people do volunteer for downgrades, so you just become the company whose grades aren't always right. At the end of this timeline, CGC 9.9s are the new PGX 9.8s.

[Monstertruck97]

Two Brothers Comics did an almost six hour video last night and started off talking about this topic.

They featured a video from YT about a dealer named Robert Wood who located the BF booth and found the employees and owner hiding inside the booth and he heckled them (with profanity) and eventually snuck up to talk to perhaps the owner who said he called security and ended with the filmer running away.

Weird video, but thought maybe you would enjoy it.

This starts at just before the 12 minute mark and lasts a few minutes.

Enjoy!

 

[chrisco37]

On 8/13/2022 at 1:33 AM, FFB said:

They deserve every bit of scorn they are getting.  I hope Marvel pulls both of their cards for this.  No more work for Crain and no more exclusives for Black Flag.  

I don’t feel bad for BF as they brought this on themselves, but I think they are taking the brunt of all this when that “burden” should be shared.  

BF and CGC had some sort of agreement/understanding in place prior to this disaster.  BF didn’t try and sneak something by CGC here (like Ewert did way back when).  CGC approved this BS.   BF has become the fall guy here.  They are taking it in the keister and CGC will get off Scott-free (see what I did there?).

The only way that CGC will change their current stance (which is, more or less, “we’ve heard your complaints, eff you”) is if the submission train takes a big hit.  And that ain’t going to happen.  They’ll gladly continue to work back room deals and let the retailer take the heat.  

[Coverless 9.8]

According to Bleeding Cool, Black Flag are indeed selling the new acetate books in Boston, but only to fellow vendors!  One can only conclude that there's been no cease and desist from Marvel!  

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/black-flag-at-fan-expo-boston-but-not-selling-their-acetate-variants/

[chrisco37]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:27 AM, Coverless 9.8 said:

According to Bleeding Cool, Black Flag are indeed selling the new acetate books in Boston, but only to fellow vendors!  One can only conclude that there's been no cease and desist from Marvel!  

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/black-flag-at-fan-expo-boston-but-not-selling-their-acetate-variants/

They can market it as an RRP now.  

[MyNameIsLegion]

CGC is in the business of making money. Nothing will dissuade them from this. They make most of their money on the volume of slabbing moderns. They would really love to not have to fool with a 7.0-9.0 GA, SA, BA, non-key, ‘They suck up a lot more time to press, pre-grade, grade, etc and they can’t get as much of their FMV in the submission all the while being much more subject to damage and the resultant customer service hassle of some crabby boomer or Gen-xer. Even Keys are a hassle for all the same reasons. Cranking out 9.8 expedited modern slabbed card stock and acetate covers is much simpler. CGC now is like eBay was 20 years ago: They realize the real money is volume and quick turn. That’s when eBay introduced BIN and did everything they could to maximize that business model over the auction format. They didn’t do away with it, they just set the terms in their favor to make it worth their hassle. The only happy divorce the comic community will ever enjoy is if a competitor sets out to peal off the vintage funny book grading business, no moderns, no signatures, no manufactured collectibles. And if they did it cheaper and faster with less involved holder etc they might have something. Otherwise, you are all stuck with CGC and they will continue to “optimize” their business specifically to favor modern subs over older books. Now that slabs are the product, and not a service, you are not a client of CGC, you are a retail customer.  Pre screens and pressing services are just the ante you pay to buy the grade you want. BF just had the audacity to do it on a bigger scale and resell them. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by MyNameIsLegion

[namisgr]

On 8/13/2022 at 3:34 AM, Coverless 9.8 said:

Intrust [sic] the process!    

I DO intrust it.  And entrust it.  But I don't trust it.

[namisgr]

On 8/13/2022 at 5:18 AM, Skwerl said:

All of this nonsense has just been stewing and stinking for the past couple days, but where I'm at now is I just don't understand how CGC can be so willing to make exceptions on this stuff, no matter what their reasoning is. 

Come on.  CGC is a company that decided to not note whether a comic book had been pressed, alleging that it couldn't be identified as such with certainty, when they were and still are running an in-house pressing branch that allows one to know that a comic has been pressed with 100% certainty.  

So the terms 'reasoning' and 'business practices' haven't seen eye to eye for a long time.  This Acetategate, with its accompanying perception of grade buying, may be an example of too large a separation of those terms for the collecting community to allow the practice to continue.  Or not.

Edited August 13, 2022 by namisgr

[DR.X]

I has this brainstorm last night and came up up with this alternate X insect spray kit. You get a 11x9 sheet of acetate with " your's truly " masked up face on it, and a can of Black Flag insect spray.

You can cut the acetate to wrap the can to you're hearts desire.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:54 AM, namisgr said:

Come on.  CGC is a company that decided to not note whether a comic book had been pressed, alleging that it couldn't be identified as such with certainty, when they were and still are running an in-house pressing branch that allows one to know that a comic has been pressed with 100% certainty.  

So the terms 'reasoning' and 'business practices' haven't seen eye to eye for a long time.  

Thank you. This is the first thing I thought of when this started to blow up.

CGC has a sordid history of saying one thing and having another set of rules for certain dealers and collectors. 

[Sauce Dog]

On 8/13/2022 at 5:18 AM, Skwerl said:

CGC 9.9s are the new PGX 9.8s.

[Cat]

On 8/13/2022 at 7:07 AM, BoognishRises said:

Any truth to Black Flag only selling the 2 new acetates at Boston to dealers? Multiple people are saying they are not available to the public and just dealers were able to grab them.

Poorly done again. It should be 'ain't one'. That's minor though. What is bigger is that it should be consistent between the style. Either all in numerals or all spelt out, not half and half. It looks weird and catches the eye because of that. Why are you so bad at this, Black Flag? You're bad at being bad. And somehow CGC is still worse! 

[Dave2739]

On 8/13/2022 at 8:39 AM, Cat said:

Poorly done again. It should be 'ain't one'. That's minor though. What is bigger is that it should be consistent between the style. Either all in numerals or all spelt out, not half and half. It looks weird and catches the eye because of that. Why are you so bad at this, Black Flag? You're bad at being bad. And somehow CGC is still worse! 

I'm gonna say it again because it bares repeating. Dude's art is super fugly.

[Cat]

On 8/13/2022 at 11:07 PM, Dave2739 said:

I'm gonna say it again because it bares repeating. Dude's art is super fugly.

Yeah, it is. Always has been, even way back when he did X-Force volume 2. He did design their grey/silver-and-black costumes though, so that's one positive he's got going for him. His art then was murky and often indecipherable at times. He was using the darkness to hide problems, it seemed. You could tell there was potential, he just needed someone to reign him in and show him the right way.

He took a wrong turn. 

[Prince Namor]

On 8/12/2022 at 9:14 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I’ve been reading it as “In God we intrust America”.   Not sure that makes much more sense but...

 

Yep. However it's meant or spelled or phrased, it sounds like someone who isn't very smart trying to sound like they're smart. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

145 pages.....

[Black_Adam]

Very disappointed to wake up this morning and see this thread barely has a page of new posts. 

[Buzzetta]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:23 AM, Black_Adam said:

Very disappointed to wake up this morning and see this thread barely has a page of new posts. 

It's only 7:30am in California.  The leader of the cornfield is resting. 

[Silver Icon Comics]

On 8/12/2022 at 1:02 PM, CGC Mike said:

We feel it is important to provide transparency on how CGC arrived at our method of certifying Clayton Crain’s Ultimate Fallout comics with the attached acetate covers. For us, this was an unprecedented item to grade. After Mr. Crain spoke with us prior to C2E2, the rules we applied to his books:

 

• The additional cover had to be created by an established artist in the industry.
• The comic to which the cover was attached had to contain a cover by that same artist.
• A copy of the comic with the attached cover had to be submitted to us for inspection prior to certifying any copies.

 

Given the recent circumstances, we have made adjustments to the labeling originally used for the Ultimate Fallout exhibiting the acetate cover. Going forward, any copies submitted to CGC will display in the label text: "In God We Intrust" Acetate Artist Cover attached with 2 staples after manufacturing. The books will still be allowed to receive a Universal label.

 

This will also apply to Mr. Crain’s forthcoming copies of Ghost Rider #1 and Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 that contain an acetate cover.  

 

 

Does this mean that GCG is changing the requirements for the Universal Label?



Wouldn't the modification of the book by adding an additional cover and two additional staples be a special consideration? Maybe you need a new label for "Modified but not restored or conserved" or change the Universal description to allow for adding of covers because  "

• The additional cover had to be created by an established artist in the industry.
• The comic to which the cover was attached had to contain a cover by that same artist.
• A copy of the comic with the attached cover had to be submitted to us for inspection prior to certifying any copies."

GCG made the rules, so GCG can change the rules, but these rules need to be clearly established which unless you modify the page: https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/labels/ or create some new label this is now universally unclear and non standard and counter to the reason someone purchases the services of CGC to professionally grade a comic book. The GCG brand/name/service is supposed to instill confidence in the service, and it should be straight forward and clear what the rules are and what the labels mean. I'm not clear at all, CGC Mike and your forum post does not match the label description sections that exists today. This is not a troll post, this is a legitimate concern. The reason I purchase services from CGC over others is integrity of the service and confidence, and now that is in question. Where other books modified in some similar way but not publicly talked about and are out there with a blue label? I have to question that now. I think this is a legitimate concern.