A plea for professionalism 4 4

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:43 PM, Robert Doggett said:

Do you and Cap work for CGC as graders?

Oh, come on, dude. Don't suggest that we're shills just because we agree with one of CGC's SOP.

You wouldn't be keen on presenting such a question if you paid attention to the threads detailing CGC's largest disasters in 2022.

[Upgrayedd2]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:30 PM, Tony S said:

Count me among the group that believes grading notes are largely useless. I've been sending in books to CGC since the beginning - and over the years have come to the opinion people see them as FAR more useful than they really are. Perhaps the one thing collectors/CGC customers need to understand is this:  The grading notes are not nor ever have been an exhaustive  list of every single defect. Instead they represent simply what the graders took the time to write down. I've seen countless examples of books that the reason it graded 8.0 is  small color breaking corner crease - and that's not even in the notes. Instead the notes are "light spine stresses" or "light bends to cover". Which have practically become the cut and paste of "it's not NM and and I have to give a reason why so here you go." 

The only grading notes that are useful are the ones that mention defects you can no longer see as a result of the book being encapsulated. That way you don't break a book out to regrade only to discover a light stain on the front cover only visible from the inside of the cover. 

The G.I. Joe is most likely a mistake. It is so far off that the grade was probably intended for a different copy and it just got the wrong label. It's why CGC wants the book back to regrade.  The Strange Tales more likely a reflection of really inconsistent grading right now.  For TAT's to have improved like they have on Moderns and Economy if fast tracked, either there a LOT of new graders or people are being pushed to grade much faster. Maybe both.  What is...ironic.... to me is that IMHO CGC is way, way strict on  NM and better grades. I have 9.4's from a decade ago that don't look as nice - to me anyway - as 8.5's and 9.0's I have been seeing the last six months.  You are a new grader. You want a reputation of being too loose or too strict?  So the occasional book that comes through noticeably over graded stands out. 

Agreeing to disagree is cool with me as well  

Lots of great points and love how you share without judgement. Absolutely agree how Grader Notes (sometimes?) do not accurately capture defects. Such a bummer. 
From a differing perspective, I recommend supporting those who want to see Grader Notes for all submissions (whether those begin at 9.6 or below will be left for another discussion) because we are one community. And if you support their cause they should in turn support yours. I sometimes fail to follow my own guidance because of that pesky ego. So for now I say stand by those who want the Notes and share with those how they can help support a comic cause close to you. 

[Robert Doggett]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:30 PM, Tony S said:

Count me among the group that believes grading notes are largely useless. I've been sending in books to CGC since the beginning - and over the years have come to the opinion people see them as FAR more useful than they really are. Perhaps the one thing collectors/CGC customers need to understand is this:  The grading notes are not nor ever have been an exhaustive  list of every single defect. Instead they represent simply what the graders took the time to write down. I've seen countless examples of books that the reason it graded 8.0 is  small color breaking corner crease - and that's not even in the notes. Instead the notes are "light spine stresses" or "light bends to cover". Which have practically become the cut and paste of "it's not NM and and I have to give a reason why so here you go." 

The only grading notes that are useful are the ones that mention defects you can no longer see as a result of the book being encapsulated. That way you don't break a book out to regrade only to discover a light stain on the front cover only visible from the inside of the cover. 

The G.I. Joe is most likely a mistake. It is so far off that the grade was probably intended for a different copy and it just got the wrong label. It's why CGC wants the book back to regrade.  The Strange Tales more likely a reflection of really inconsistent grading right now.  For TAT's to have improved like they have on Moderns and Economy if fast tracked, either there a LOT of new graders or people are being pushed to grade much faster. Maybe both.  What is...ironic.... to me is that IMHO CGC is way, way strict on  NM and better grades. I have 9.4's from a decade ago that don't look as nice - to me anyway - as 8.5's and 9.0's I have been seeing the last six months.  You are a new grader. You want a reputation of being too loose or too strict?  So the occasional book that comes through noticeably over graded stands out. 

Agreeing to disagree is cool with me as well  

Thanks for your opinion on grader notes as you see it, Tony.  I work a 9-5 so I have a hard time with laziness in the workplace.  If I put forth a haphazard effort while doing my job like (in a round about way) you're suggesting the graders are doing, I'm looking for another one pretty quick.  But I digress, we are getting off the original subject of the matter, though.  

My concern is more about the inconsistencies in grading lately and lack of quality control.  How are these books leaving their warehouse when they are clearly incorrect?  I'm just proposing they tighten up the ship a little from within the company to prevent these books from leaving.  CGC definitely wants the book back because it's the right thing to do. Can you imagine them telling me to resubmit it and we'll be sure to get the grading right next time?   The problem wasn't if they were going to fix it, rather it has to be fixed to begin with.  It's happening too often lately.

 

 

 

[Tony S]

On 9/29/2022 at 2:11 PM, Upgrayedd2 said:

Lots of great points and love how you share without judgement. Absolutely agree how Grader Notes (sometimes?) do not accurately capture defects. Such a bummer. 
From a differing perspective, I recommend supporting those who want to see Grader Notes for all submissions (whether those begin at 9.6 or below will be left for another discussion) because we are one community. And if you support their cause they should in turn support yours. I sometimes fail to follow my own guidance because of that pesky ego. So for now I say stand by those who want the Notes and share with those how they can help support a comic cause close to you. 

Thank you for the kind words. Just a few thoughts in response. 

Graders notes take time.  A grader can spend a minute entering notes or a grader can spend a minute on the next book. Customers hated long turn around times.  Fewer graders notes probably helped with the TAT's. I personally see little value in graders notes and lots of value in faster TAT's. so there's where I live. . 

Graders notes at the NM and higher grades can negatively affect value when selling graded books.  Take a 9.6 with graders notes that mention 2-3 very minor flaws and compare it to a "clean" 9.6 with no graders notes. A good number of buyers will assume the 9.6 with no grading notes mentioning flaws must be a nicer 9.6 than the one that does mention flaws. 

[Robert Doggett]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:59 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Oh, come on, dude. Don't suggest that we're shills just because we agree with one of CGC's SOP.

You wouldn't be keen on presenting such a question if you paid attention to the threads detailing CGC's largest disasters in 2022.

I may have went too far with that question.  It's not that I haven't paid attention, I haven't read this thread you're referring to.  I didn't even know one existed.  I am only addressing the issue that I see right in front of me.  

[Buzzetta]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:53 PM, Zoinks said:

Hey. 

[Buzzetta]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:43 PM, Robert Doggett said:

From day one, they probably promised integrity in the system they put together but I see that fell by the wayside as well.  

Do you and Cap work for CGC as graders?  Why would you be so adamant not to get grader notes on books you submit?

Zoinks is the “Special Technical Unifier” between the CGC boards and CGC itself. 

[Buzzetta]

On 9/29/2022 at 4:17 PM, Zoinks said:

They should hire me for the "Ask CGC" section 

You are nowhere near toxic as a couple of others that have returned and continue to prattle on. 

[Tony S]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:15 PM, Buzzetta said:

Zoinks is the “Special Technical Unifier” between the CGC boards and CGC itself. 

You know, CGC probably needs a position like that  

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:39 PM, Robert Doggett said:

I am only addressing the issue that I see right in front of me.  

Suggesting we're shills, shortly after you and I had 'agreed to disagree', doesn't address the "issue". I already presented why. If you wanted to continue the discussion, you shouldn't have 'agreed to disagree'.

[shadroch]

On 9/29/2022 at 12:32 PM, Tony S said:

Thank you for the kind words. Just a few thoughts in response. 

Graders notes take time.  A grader can spend a minute entering notes or a grader can spend a minute on the next book. Customers hated long turn around times.  Fewer graders notes probably helped with the TAT's. I personally see little value in graders notes and lots of value in faster TAT's. so there's where I live. . 

Graders notes at the NM and higher grades can negatively affect value when selling graded books.  Take a 9.6 with graders notes that mention 2-3 very minor flaws and compare it to a "clean" 9.6 with no graders notes. A good number of buyers will assume the 9.6 with no grading notes mentioning flaws must be a nicer 9.6 than the one that does mention flaws. 

I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't fly. There is zero reason why a grader can't make oral notes while grading, and his words picked up and transcribed.  Their system is broken. Is it broken because it broke down internally, or because they have expanded beyond their labor pool, or because they have allowed a few roosters into the henhouse? 

Right now, all I see a bunch of people trying to rearrainge the deck chairs and ignoring the oncoming iceberg.  Luckily, I got off the ship in Queenstown.

[Tony S]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:28 AM, shadroch said:

I'm sorry, but that argument doesn't fly. There is zero reason why a grader can't make oral notes while grading, and his words picked up and transcribed.  Their system is broken. Is it broken because it broke down internally, or because they have expanded beyond their labor pool, or because they have allowed a few roosters into the henhouse? 

Right now, all I see a bunch of people trying to rearrainge the deck chairs and ignoring the oncoming iceberg.  Luckily, I got off the ship in Queenstown.

I considered the oral notes before I posted. 

Speech to text isn't perfect, it has to be reviewed for accuracy. That takes time. Considering how brief grading notes typically are, reviewing speech to text for accuracy probably saves no time at all versus just typing them in.  Again - since I see no value in 95% of the grading notes and lots of value in faster TAT, I'm fine with 95% of the notes not be noted. 

What CGC needs to address IMHO is consistency of grades. Maybe they could  go buy some slabbed comics they graded 10 yeas ago and see if indeed they have gotten a lot stricter on NM grades. One could lawyer to death what any given grade should look like and defects allowed.  I actually don't care about that part.  What matters more than anything is consistency. Last year's/last decade's 9.8 should be today's 9.8 (or insert any grade you want) It doesn't matter where the goal posts are. I just don't want the goal posts to move. 

Maybe more labeling errors are occurring. Or maybe they are grading 5x the number of books than they used to so we see 5x more labeling/encapsulation errors. Because we've always had errors in labeling and encapsulation. Occasionally - over the years - I bought such because I find the error amusing (Batman comic labeled as Superman)  

[shadroch]

More grader notes would go a long way to being more consistent.  If one grader is deducting .2 for a slight bend while another is deducting .5, that would turn up in notes and the company could establish standards. 

Every book should start at a 10 and the notes should explain why it got knocked down. I want to know why Book A gets a 9.6 while book B gets a 9.2. Not that it matters. CGC is rapidly reaching it's expiration date.  I look forward to the arseman finally finishing his book on pedigrees.

[thehumantorch]

On 9/29/2022 at 2:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

Hey. 

 

[Tony S]

On 9/30/2022 at 10:49 AM, shadroch said:

More grader notes would go a long way to being more consistent.  If one grader is deducting .2 for a slight bend while another is deducting .5, that would turn up in notes and the company could establish standards. 

Every book should start at a 10 and the notes should explain why it got knocked down. I want to know why Book A gets a 9.6 while book B gets a 9.2. Not that it matters. CGC is rapidly reaching it's expiration date.  I look forward to the arseman finally finishing his book on pedigrees.

Except that starting at 10 and points knocked off is not how grading works. It is subjective and about appearance and appeal.  Defects don't so much knock off a certain number of points, instead it works more along the line of "what is the best grade you can get with a given defect".  A color breaking subscription crease is at best a 6 and usually 4.5-5.0. It doesn't matter if there is a few spine ticks or some bends. Those defects basically come along for the ride and cost nothing grade wise. 

If you think about it, if you deducted points for every defect then books with lots of creases, small tears and stains would quickly get into negative numbers. 

I spoke with Steve Borock about this back in 2014 when Voldy was being started up.  I too assumed that graders had a grading card that specified how much off for each type and degree of defects. That's not how it is done. 

[shadroch]

I don't know how many books I've graded over the years, but it has to be in the hundreds of thousands.  Every book starts with a clean slate. The next book I grade is a 10 until I look at it.  It might take two seconds to knock it down to a five, but it, and every book starts at ten. 

[MAR1979]

 

[Deano73]

I posted this in another thread but I think it fits here also....

This in their description for comic book grader on the careers page.

 

Comic Book Grader

Responsibilities will include:

• Assessment of condition and quality of collectible comic books
• Identification of restoration
• Entry of grading data into computer system

 

So it's part of their responsibility unless they just see that typing in 0.5 to 9.8 as grading data.

In my opinion grader notes should be on everything below 9.8

[lostboys]

Graders notes would be great.

I don't expect great at this point.

[DoctorWyoming1]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:38 PM, Ed Hanes said:

wow, that GI Joe.... maybe a 7.5 at best

Best I can figure is that someone thought those lines were art?! They sorta go along with shells from Snake Eyes' gun