If this is the only OA forum, why isn't everyone here? 4 4

[zhamlau]

I think in general we’re heading into some dark waters culturally and social media is reflecting that. We are becoming less and less capable of handling/engaging in disagreement in a stable manner because we’re becoming more childlike and irrational. The idea of hyper clannish heavily moderated/censored groups with much more banal content is probably the way of the near future because it’s the easiest path forward.

Eventually this will lead to a whole new sets of issues and concerns for those groups but that’s tomorrows worry. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:24 AM, zhamlau said:

I think in general we’re heading into some dark waters culturally and social media is reflecting that. We are becoming less and less capable of handling/engaging in disagreement in a stable manner because we’re becoming more childlike and irrational. The idea of hyper clannish heavily moderated/censored groups with much more banal content is probably the way of the near future because it’s the easiest path forward.

Eventually this will lead to a whole new sets of issues and concerns for those groups but that’s tomorrows worry. 

Very, very true. The line between disagreeing with someone on the internet and inciting a Klingon blood feud has blurred. I've moved around a great many message boards/groups/instagram/whatever and seen the passive insanity grow worse and worse - and I've been on the godforsaken internet since 1995 in attitude-filled chat rooms filled with nerd rage. This place is one of the last bastions of positive internet interaction - I hope it lasts awhile longer.

[BS Damutantman]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:37 AM, delekkerste said:

As for why everyone isn't here, to be brutally frank, I've heard it said by many people: a lot of people just don't like the personalities here. Whether people agree or not, there's a perception out there that this Forum is dominated by keyboard warriors who will attack you and try to tear you down (Burkey I know has felt attacked here in the past, and he definitely was) and/or who are talking out of their azz and think they know more than they do (I'm sure some have leveled this criticism against me on occasion, though, I know that it's mostly directly at others here).

I think this is undoubtedly a factor. It does feel like I've seen people make a bad/unpopular post on here and subsequently get shredded into oblivion. It's one of the reasons I lurked so long on here myself before actually making an account.

Overall, though, these boards still represent the best online repository of knowledge for OA/Comics, imo. I find the FB groups to be a much more unpleasant mix of newbies posting questions that can be answered with <5 minutes on Google, spec/flip discussion, or repeat posts about the same news competing for the most likes. I don't feel like I learn anything in those FB groups; meanwhile, I can read through any archived or active thread on here and learn something new. I also like IG, as I've had an easy time connecting to artists on there and can scroll mindlessly while looking at pretty pictures.

[alxjhnsn]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:37 AM, delekkerste said:

The Original Comic Art Collectors page on Facebook has 7.4K members and has been the most active forum to talk about comic art since it launched in 2018. 

I'm a Admin on that page and the membership growth has amazed me. We have new people every day. 

On 10/4/2022 at 7:37 AM, delekkerste said:

TAs for why everyone isn't here, to be brutally frank, I've heard it said by many people: a lot of people just don't like the personalities here.. 

One could say that this forum isn't moderated sufficiently to stop the blow-ups and remove the troublemakers, but as an Admin I will not cast stones. It's hard work.

On 10/4/2022 at 7:37 AM, delekkerste said:

 

But, the fact remains: many prefer the Facebook group where the atmosphere is very genial and easy-going, people stick to talking mostly about the art itself, and there is very little confrontation, arguing, trolling, etc.

We (Frank Giella (our founder), Art Cloos, and I) work really hard to keep it friendly. We have screening questions and if they aren't all answered, we delete the request. We have rules and we enforce them. We will boot repeat troublemakers though that does take all three of us. Glad that it pays off in user statisfaction.

On 10/4/2022 at 7:37 AM, delekkerste said:

I personally think the ability for long-form discussion here is far superior to the Facebook group's, but, no doubt that group gets far more eyeballs and participation. 

I agree completely. It's much easier here. I appreciate the larger area to type and the formating tools.

On 10/4/2022 at 7:37 AM, delekkerste said:

Also, I know that there are numerous smaller, private groups out there on Slack, Internet messenger and WhatsApp where people can chat freely among a tight circle of friends (I'm probably part of a half dozen or so of them). 

That's also true on Facebook. I'm in two such private groups. I'm sure that there are more.

[Dr. Balls]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:42 AM, alxjhnsn said:

I agree completely. It's much easier here. I appreciate the larger area to type and the formating tools.

I can't speak to the OA Facebook group, but the past groups I've been involved in the essence of any discussions are "Cool [insert item you're talking about here]." or "Amazing [insert item you're talking about here].". Every lengthy discussion I've ever tried to have on FB groups just kind of peters out with little to no discussion - and perhaps it's the nature of Facebook that doesn't allow for more in-depth talks.

However, since the Admin has come here to talk about the FB group, the least I can do is go visit and check it out!

[Dr. Balls]

SPACEX TO LOAD ALL TWITTER SERVERS INTO A ROCKET AND LAUNCH IT INTO THE BLACKNESS OF SPACE FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY.

[delekkerste]

Whoops, sorry, posted this in the wrong Forum! Thought I had this open to The Water Cooler.  

Edited October 4, 2022 by delekkerste

[Rick2you2]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:20 PM, Dr. Balls said:

SPACEX TO LOAD ALL TWITTER SERVERS INTO A ROCKET AND LAUNCH IT INTO THE BLACKNESS OF SPACE FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY.

He’s already shooting for the Nobel Peace Prize, he probably thinks, after his tweet on solving the war between Russia and Ukraine. Give ‘em, Crimea.

[KirbyCollector]

I appreciate it that things stay real in here. Over the past 10 years I noticed an insularity imbedding itself in comics wherein fans sought to only praise, never criticize, the industry, artists, storylines, etc. (I sometimes wonder how much if it was Big Bang Theory, "nerds circling the wagons," type behavior.) This place is the last bastion I can see against the kum bah yah, "all art is great," market will only go higher mindset -- one unfortunately enforced on social media by rules designed to marginalize or mitigate dissent of any kind.

Edited October 4, 2022 by KirbyCollector

[Rick2you2]

On 10/4/2022 at 1:19 PM, KirbyCollector said:

I appreciate it that things stay real in here. Over the past 10 years I noticed an insularity imbedding itself in comics wherein fans sought to only praise, never criticize, the industry, artists, storylines, etc. (I sometimes wonder how much if it was Big Bang Theory, "nerds circling the wagons," type behavior.) This place is the last bastion I can see against the kum bah yah, "all art is great," market will only go higher mindset -- one unfortunately enforced on social media by rules designed to marginalize or mitigate dissent of any kind.

Well, coincidentally I am now testing that theory. I dissented that a Byrne cover was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I didn’t think it would motivate someone to buy the book because of its detachment from the story contents (more broadly, it could just as easily have been a commission). Good art, but not an awesome cover. I am curious whether I get any response.

[MAR1979]

Re Facebook: 

There are 7400 age 60+ OA collectors, WOW!  

No conversations from 4:30-6:00PM while all have their early birds   I bet nearly all of them have AOL email addresses (I know Giella does)  

Makes sense most of the convo's are short there as the participants likley doze off after 2 or 3 sentences.

Edited October 5, 2022 by MAR1979

[Buzzetta]

On 10/4/2022 at 8:37 AM, delekkerste said:

The Original Comic Art Collectors page on Facebook has 7.4K members and has been the most active forum to talk about comic art since it launched in 2018. I noticed pretty quickly that it was cannibalizing activity on Comic Art Fans, which I suspect was part of the impetus to expand CAF's programming the past 2-3 years (and Bill has done a great job with that, hats off to him). 

As for why everyone isn't here, to be brutally frank, I've heard it said by many people: a lot of people just don't like the personalities here. Whether people agree or not, there's a perception out there that this Forum is dominated by keyboard warriors who will attack you and try to tear you down (Burkey I know has felt attacked here in the past, and he definitely was) and/or who are talking out of their azz and think they know more than they do (I'm sure some have leveled this criticism against me on occasion, though, I know that it's mostly directly at others here). Some have also levied the criticism that people talk too much about "the market" vs. the art. I personally think it's a bit unfair, as the art doesn't change whereas the market does.

But, the fact remains: many prefer the Facebook group where the atmosphere is very genial and easy-going, people stick to talking mostly about the art itself, and there is very little confrontation, arguing, trolling, etc. I personally think the ability for long-form discussion here is far superior to the Facebook group's, but, no doubt that group gets far more eyeballs and participation. 

Also, I know that there are numerous smaller, private groups out there on Slack, Internet messenger and WhatsApp where people can chat freely among a tight circle of friends (I'm probably part of a half dozen or so of them). 

If someone really wants to challenge the Facebook group's supremacy with a superior platform, there is only one obvious choice: Discord. I am a member of numerous Discords, mostly for sports cards, and you get even more participation than you see on Facebook with the platform advantages of a message board like this one. I'm surprised there isn't a Discord for OA that has gained critical mass (that I am aware of).

There is also the draw that many comic book artists and professionals are in that group and readily interact with the common folk.  With just a quick scan as I type this, I see that accounts for Tom Palmer, Ron Frenz, Reilly Brown, Brian Pulido, Bill Sienkiewicz, Mike Vosburg, and Rob Liefeld are in the group among many more.  Facebook groups allow more control over content than an internet message board so there is also that draw, as someone such as Liefeld may network and promote his brand.  With a bevy of artists and market movers and shakers from Heritage, Hakes and other venues, you have an interesting group to sit in on and interact with.  

Facebook groups also allows for tighter control of one's personal account and how they choose to interact with others within groups themselves.  That is not offered here.   I rarely post in the FB OA Group but read frequently as when it comes to the art side of things, like here, I genuinely just enjoy sitting back  to read and learn. 

[KirbyCollector]

On 10/5/2022 at 8:01 AM, Buzzetta said:

Facebook groups allow more control over content than an internet message board

On 10/5/2022 at 8:01 AM, Buzzetta said:

Facebook groups also allows for tighter control of one's personal account and how they choose to interact with others within groups themselves

I believe art is meant to make people feel something... provoke honest reactions... force people to voice and defend their beliefs. Art does not exist without criticism... if it did, you could simply draw anything on a piece of paper and hang it on your wall. 

[Buzzetta]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:32 AM, KirbyCollector said:

I believe art is meant to make people feel something... provoke honest reactions... force people to voice and defend their beliefs. Art does not exist without criticism... if it did, you could simply draw anything on a piece of paper and hang it on your wall. 

That’s not what I’m talking about so I probably didn’t articulate my thoughts properly.  I will give an example of an extreme case instead.  
 

A few years ago I rebuilt my childhood GI Joe collection and then later on realized it was not feasible to keep it and decided to sell while only keeping a few things. There were a couple of people that were completely insufferable.  One guy was so “out there” that he backed up his claims on what he thought of women by showing the GI Joe group a tattoo he had on the entire side of his body depicting Cobra Commander waving a firearm over Zarana’s head (female drednok) while she was performing a sex act on him.  Enough was enough and if the nods of the group were not going to ban him, I could just block him and not have to deal with him ever again. 
 

When it came to selling in a Lego group I noticed that I had a guy constantly threadcrapping because I would not meet his offers.  He decided that his best course of action would to threadcrap and try to disparage the listings as being too high for myself and others.  When he did it for a $1300 set, that was the line and he was blocked.  The set sold with a few backup claims.

The block tool is actually pretty useful.  People may claim that in real life people cannot simply block people.  Yes and no.  We all have that former friend or relative or ex girlfriend that is completely “dead” to us or in real life worse things have happened to strangers who did not have the common sense to know how or when to stop. 

[batman_fan]

I have avoided using facebook since selling a business several years ago that had to have an online presence. Mostly because I wasn’t interested in giving Facebook easy access to my information.  I did do Reddit for a short while.  The comic and OA group was decent but mostly people posting images of what they have to get the likes. Very little discussion to really just a place to see what people had.  If I want to oh and ah, I just look for Bedrock post here.  I did try CAF but the forum was pretty dead and the other guys equivalent to CGC is too much like this site so why change.

There is a tendency to dogpile on this site from time to time, sometimes justified, sometime unjustified but that is the internet in general.

[Taylor G]

Chris Snorek and Chuck Arnold have a Discord server. The link for joining that server is this: https://discord.gg/wuaYmpK32Q. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by Taylor G

[Xatari]

Yes, the link to the Discord was posted in a Comicart-L email yesterday, and they saw a massive uptick in new members. 

Places I engage for OA outside of this forum:

• Telegram group (Telegram is a messaging app similar to WhatsApp) - about 25 of us in our main group.
• FB OA Group
• FB Deal or No Deal
• Instagram
• CAF direct messages
• Discord - just joined yesterday myself

I have found our Telegram group to be my primary source of interaction because it tends to build closer relationships and doesn't let people hide.  If a member is not engaged or rude to others, they will be swiftly removed.  There also seems to be a bit of an immediacy factor, but I do agree that long and more thoughtful discourse is more viable here given the format.  

I do agree with Gene's post above in regard to "personalities" as well as the other mention of slower intervention by moderators.  We saw both of these shortcomings in full view recently with the "CAF commenting" threads.  It's unfortunate when that happens, but it is sort of a necessary evil with free speech online and a wide range of personalities.  Often the masses will self-police as was the case mentioned above, but there are still repercussions.  I am sure any newer members who read threads with personal attacks will be reluctant to post themselves.  

I hope as our hobby continues to evolve, we find ways to connect with new entrants and help bring them in rather than silence them actively or passively. I am hopeful for social groups mentioned in this thread as a way of building on our community.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Xatari

[rsonenthal]

For what it's worth (and that may not be much), I'm not sure I see how adding another 10 or however many different message boards automatically helps new collectors. If anything, communication about the hobby becomes more fragmented and it's easier for newer collectors to fall into a smaller group where they get preyed upon.  

I would encourage (as I often do as I welcome) new collectors to join as many different avenues for communication as they can.  In that way, they can learn about the hobby before they start plowing too much money on "this can only go up" or "this is an amazing deal" schemes. 

Ron

[The Voord]

IMHO moderation on these boards is about right.  Most heated discussions/disagreements/flame-wars tend to fizzle out by themselves without the need for heavy-handed policing.

I very rarely flag contentious posts up for the attention of the mods . . . except for recent threads in which Marcis Wai was attacked for his (harmless) CAF activity and someone else wanted to see Bechara's demise.  

I found it a bit of a stretch of the imagination that 'Race' started the personal attacks on Marcus . . . and when he quickly left the scene was soon after replaced by 'Herbie-Boy-Wonder' who (professing to be a long-time-lurker) made as his first topic . . . Marcus Wai's CAF activity (when most people come here to discuss art)!  But Herbie insisted he was not Race re-invented (heck, he even claims expertise in having studied Race's posts to determine different writing styles, lol!).  Race wouldn't ID himself for fear of dealer reprisal . . . and Herbie-Boy-Wonder was fearful of peer backlash!  Yeah, right . . . 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by The Voord

[barneythecantankerous]

Because forums are outdated today, especially as they typically tend to be cesspools filled with nepotism, so they're a difficult entry point for new participants, and they're a pretty poor way of keeping up to date.

Keep in mind this forum is very negative of dealers and they make up the majority of CAFs business and live shows, which is probably why a lot of shade is thrown this way.