The Phantom Stranger Omnibus - Do we finally get to see the ashcan ? 1 1

[archivist]

 

Hi everybody,

DC announced that in 2023 we will get an Omnibus Edition of the Phantom Stranger.

Now I wonder if they will include a photo of the Phantom Stranger Ashcan, which is - according to my notes - the only Ashcan Edition where we so far never saw a picture of the cover.

That shouldn't be too difficult for DC, since they only need to get into their DC Vault, take a picture of the book and include it into the Omnibus.

Does anyone of you know if a picture of the Ashcan is included in the book ?

If not, does anybody know who is editing the book and how I can ask the editor if such a picture can be included ?

Thanks in advance,

Archi

 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

I don't recall any Ashcans being included in previous DC omnibuses. Why do you think that material would be included in this one?

[Lazyboy]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:29 AM, archivist said:

Now I wonder if they will include a photo of the Phantom Stranger Ashcan, which is - according to my notes - the only Ashcan Edition where we so far never saw a picture of the cover.

If you haven't seen the cover, how do you know it even exists?

[Cat]

I'd check the Marvel Masterworks forums. I haven't been there for aaaaaages, but I bet someone there would know a contact. That or just tweet them? 

[archivist]

On 11/16/2022 at 3:55 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I don't recall any Ashcans being included in previous DC omnibuses. Why do you think that material would be included in this one?

Good idea. So that means the possibility for this one is almost zero, too. But if I learned one thing since I started collecting DCs in 1981, it's that you always have to expect the unexpected with DC:

[archivist]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:39 PM, Lazyboy said:

If you haven't seen the cover, how do you know it even exists?

Moondog was allowed to see it.

[archivist]

On 11/16/2022 at 5:54 PM, Cat said:

I'd check the Marvel Masterworks forums. I haven't been there for aaaaaages, but I bet someone there would know a contact. That or just tweet them? 

Yes, please check these forums. As soon as you have a name, I will tweet them. Thanks !

[zzutak]

Weren't ashcans produced for the sole purpose of establishing trademark ownership of a title?  Why would DC need to do this for their late-1960s "2nd Series" when they already had established ownership via their 1952-53 "1st Series" run?    Just askin'. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 11/16/2022 at 12:57 PM, zzutak said:

Weren't ashcans produced for the sole purpose of establishing trademark ownership of a title?  Why would DC need to do this for their late-1960s "2nd Series" when they already had established ownership via their 1952-53 "1st Series" run?    Just askin'. 

Fantastic point.

[zzutak]

In the event that you're referring to the ashcan for the 1952 series, here's what Heritage Auctions (2002) has to say:

"Mysterious Stranger Ashcan #nn (DC, 1952) Condition: FN/VF This is an ashcan used to secure the copyright for Mysterious Stranger. While DC did not produce a title called Mysterious Stranger, it did produce the short-lived Phantom Stranger run in the 1950s.  Apparently, DC was trying to decide between the two titles for their series. While they ultimately chose Phantom Stranger, the Phantom Stranger ashcan is out of the collector market as it is in DC's vaults. Consequently, this item is an extremely important piece of comic history. Because they were only interested in securing the title copyright, DC used whatever they had handy for the cover image and interior. The cover image is from All Star Western #60 and the interior is from Sensation Comics #100."

[Cat]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:57 AM, zzutak said:

Weren't ashcans produced for the sole purpose of establishing trademark ownership of a title?  Why would DC need to do this for their late-1960s "2nd Series" when they already had established ownership via their 1952-53 "1st Series" run?    Just askin'. 

Because you only hold a copyright for so long. There may have been a rumour going around that another publisher was planning to use the name, so DC threw together the ashcan. It's the same reason why Marvel used to always put out a random Captain Marvel titled project every 8 years or so, to secure the title. 

[zzutak]

On 11/16/2022 at 10:23 AM, Cat said:

Because you only hold a copyright for so long.

Understood.  But "for so long" must be greater than 16 years, no?    On a related note, has DC has ever allowed one of their copyrights to elapse and become public domain? 

[Rick2you2]

On 11/16/2022 at 1:23 PM, zzutak said:

In the event that you're referring to the ashcan for the 1952 series, here's what Heritage Auctions (2002) has to say:

"Mysterious Stranger Ashcan #nn (DC, 1952) Condition: FN/VF This is an ashcan used to secure the copyright for Mysterious Stranger. While DC did not produce a title called Mysterious Stranger, it did produce the short-lived Phantom Stranger run in the 1950s.  Apparently, DC was trying to decide between the two titles for their series. While they ultimately chose Phantom Stranger, the Phantom Stranger ashcan is out of the collector market as it is in DC's vaults. Consequently, this item is an extremely important piece of comic history. Because they were only interested in securing the title copyright, DC used whatever they had handy for the cover image and interior. The cover image is from All Star Western #60 and the interior is from Sensation Comics #100."

That title may have also risked a copyright infringement suit by the owner of "The Mysterious Traveller", which had a similarly themed radio serial.

[archivist]

On 11/16/2022 at 6:57 PM, zzutak said:

Weren't ashcans produced for the sole purpose of establishing trademark ownership of a title?  Why would DC need to do this for their late-1960s "2nd Series" when they already had established ownership via their 1952-53 "1st Series" run?    Just askin'. 

I meant the ashcan for the 1952-53 "1st series". Sorry for not being precise here !

[archivist]

On 11/16/2022 at 7:23 PM, zzutak said:

In the event that you're referring to the ashcan for the 1952 series, here's what Heritage Auctions (2002) has to say:

"Mysterious Stranger Ashcan #nn (DC, 1952) Condition: FN/VF This is an ashcan used to secure the copyright for Mysterious Stranger. While DC did not produce a title called Mysterious Stranger, it did produce the short-lived Phantom Stranger run in the 1950s.  Apparently, DC was trying to decide between the two titles for their series. While they ultimately chose Phantom Stranger, the Phantom Stranger ashcan is out of the collector market as it is in DC's vaults. Consequently, this item is an extremely important piece of comic history. Because they were only interested in securing the title copyright, DC used whatever they had handy for the cover image and interior. The cover image is from All Star Western #60 and the interior is from Sensation Comics #100."

 

I already knew about this ashcan, but thank you for bringing it into the discussion. DC had five names secured in 1952 according to my notes:

 

 

Unfortunately I disagree with Heritage, that the Phantom Stranger Ashcan is out of the collector market. As far as I can remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong, DC had to create more than one copy to secure the name.

[piper]

Hopefully, this omni gets released for real this time!

[Qalyar]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:09 AM, archivist said:

Unfortunately I disagree with Heritage, that the Phantom Stranger Ashcan is out of the collector market. As far as I can remember, and please correct me if I'm wrong, DC had to create more than one copy to secure the name.

There were probably at least two, not that that helps much.

So, first things first. A lot of places suggest that these ashcan copies went to the Copyright Office for copyright registration. And, indeed, that's exactly what you did to copyright works at the time. Then, those deposit copies  -- ones that aren't selected to be moved to the Library of Congress under 17 USC § 704(b) -- are retained by the Copyright Office "for the longest period considered practicable and desirable" per 17 USC § 704(d), and then "destroyed or otherwise disposed of". I know there are at least a few copyright registration copies of comics that re-emerged into private ownership. You can pay the office to search for stuff, but that's silly, because most of the Copyright Office's card catalog has been digitized with varying degrees of online search capacity. For example, here's the National Comics card for the 1952 1st series of Phantom Stranger:

The problem is... that doesn't include any ashcan. Because that's not what these ashcans were for. They weren't created to "secure copyright" and they didn't go to the Copyright Office. They went to the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO). As far as I know, the USPTO does not ever put deposit material back in circulation. Also, it's tough to even know what was submitted in support of which trademarks for these ashcans, because pre-1955 USPTO material is archived at the National Archives and Records Administration. In this case, in Record Group 241.3, under the category of "Index of corporate trademark applications, 1924-61". That's not searchable online, and because the textual records header suggests it contains merely an index, there's a good chance that supporting documentation (like the originally submitted ashcans themselves) may no longer exist.

Record Group 213 includes a lot of other stuff, too. A lot of stuff. Over 23,000 cubic feet of stuff -- that's as big as a pretty good-sized house filled completely, floor-to-ceiling, with boxed documents. It may be possible for someone to work with the research room for the National Archives in Washington, DC (where that RG is held) to determine what material, if any, associated with National's 1952 trademark registrations actually exists. Their archivists are certainly more familiar with the material than I am, and might even know what USPTO policy was regarding the disposal of that material (if it hasn't been retained).

But that still isn't going to make a copy available to collectors.

[archivist]

Each time I read a posting from Qalyar, I find it informative and to the point. Thank you, Qalyar, for that, and for the time you spend posting the information. I appreciate that.

I tried to find out who the editor is of the Phantom Stranger Omnibus, but all the pages I found on the internet didn't include this information.

If anybody of you has an idea how to find out who edits the book, I would be glad to hear it. If nobody has, I will take an old Golden Age Omnibus and check who edited the book and hope I will be able to find contact information about this editor so that I can ask him about a picture of the ashcan.

Thanks,

Archi

 

[piper]

On 11/21/2022 at 4:18 AM, archivist said:

Each time I read a posting from Qalyar, I find it informative and to the point. Thank you, Qalyar, for that, and for the time you spend posting the information. I appreciate that.

I tried to find out who the editor is of the Phantom Stranger Omnibus, but all the pages I found on the internet didn't include this information.

If anybody of you has an idea how to find out who edits the book, I would be glad to hear it. If nobody has, I will take an old Golden Age Omnibus and check who edited the book and hope I will be able to find contact information about this editor so that I can ask him about a picture of the ashcan.

Thanks,

Archi

 

You could try reaching out to Omar from New Mint Condition (You Tube Channel).  He seems very well connected with the Publishers as it relates to trades, omnibus, etc.

[F For Fake]

On 11/18/2022 at 10:16 AM, piper said:

Hopefully, this omni gets released for real this time!

Was just coming to say that. This omni has been solicited and canceled numerous times over the course of, what, five years? Hopefully it'll finally see the light of day, but DC's collected editions dept being what it is these days, I wouldn't hold my breath. With DC, until you're holding the book in your hands, nothing is guaranteed.