Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1962) Jack Kirby creates the Marvel Universe! 4 4

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #40 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (it's believed he inked it himself) and write and pencil the 11 page Ant-Man story for this issue, inked by Sol Brodsky. The credits however, read Plot: Stan Lee -script: L.D. Lieber...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #40 - ...but again we can see where Kirby is writing the dialogue directly onto the page.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #40 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, STILL signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash with no credit box. Why do these stories not have a credit box? This is job X-25, plenty of time into the new way...

It also would go 50 years before its ever reprinted...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales to Astonish #40 - Larry Lieber had a --script for Don Heck in this issue as well... can you tell the differences in his writing style between this and the Kirby stories he supposedly wrote?

Edited January 28, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Strange Tales #105 - Jack Kirby would do the cover and write and pencil the 13 page Human Torch story for this issue, all inked by D. Ayers. The credits however, read Plot: Stan Lee -script: Larry Lieber...

Kirby seems to have eliminated his Chapter breaks from stories he's completely writing himself... The Wizard returns as the Torch's first repeat nemesis. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Strange Tales #105 - This story is so Kirby it's not even funny. There's no chance in hell that Leapin' Larry Lieber scripted it. 

It's interesting to see Kirby on his own and his interpretation of the members and how they interact with each other. The Thing is drinking coffee and eating cake!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Strange Tales #105 - This story is so Kirby it's not even funny. There's no chance in hell that Leapin' Larry Lieber scripted it. 

The Wizard is a perfect Kirby villain, creating predicaments for the heroes and then they have to solve how to get out of it. He also has that grand over the top narcissitic edge, without being TOO corny, that makes him fun to read...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Strange Tales #105 - This story is so Kirby it's not even funny. There's no chance in hell that Leapin' Larry Lieber scripted it. 

There's a LOT made that Kirby was at the mercy of Lee down-playing Sue Storm and making her weak (which there ARE examples of), and that Kirby had a hand in making his female characters strong and independent (even June in the Challengers was never afraid to stand up to the others), but HERE... we see it's Kirby playing Sue as the female in distress with no signs that the dialogue was necessarily changed to not match the artwork. This is most likely very much Kirby making Sue look weak!

[Prince Namor]

An interesting piece of history just became available online:

Stan Lee at Princeton, 1966: Steve Ditko's Departure Announced

around the 2:00 mark

 

Aud: Mr. Lee have you given any thoughts to giving Doctor Strange a mag of his own, cause he’s one of most (?) of the year, and it feels he just doesn’t get enough space.

Lee: Actually we get… do these people look hostile? (Audience laughs)

(Stanley is already aware that Ditko’s departure is NOT a popular subject…)

Lee: We’d love to give everybody a magazine of his own, (?) we get requests for these things all the time, we mention in the books and I’m sure nobody believes it, we don’t have the time and we don’t have the staff…

(Two things here - first, he’s not going for a laugh by saying this - he’s explaining exactly what the issue is - TIME and STAFF. No mention of being limited to the number of titles per month. Second, it’s kinda funny, as he takes the time to speak at a college campus, he’s saying they don’t have enough to time to make more comics… and lastly, I wonder how he felt, the one character almost 100% NOT with his involvement, was the one they asked about…)

Lee: Now we’ve just lost the artist who does Doctor Strange, Steve Ditko has left us (The audience actually boos and hisses!) And I feel as badly about it… as you do.

(Mmmhmm…)

Lee: He’s a very… peculiar guy. (Audience uncomfortable chuckles)

(What a &#*@!)

Lee: He’s a great talent and, but he’s a little eccentric, but anyway, I haven’t spoken to this guy in over a year. He mails in his work and I wrote the stories…

(Here, of course, Lee is lying. Ditko did the complete stories with a separate page containing the grid breakdown with notes and minor dialogue. Stan did NOT write the stories. And Ditko wasn’t mailing in his work, according to him, he would bring it to Marvel.)

Lee: … and that’s the way he liked to work, and one day he just phoned and said ‘that’s it’ (?)

(Of course, Ditko tells a completely different story. Stan ignored HIM for over a year, and when Ditko got tired of Stan ignoring him and taking credit for the work, he dropped off his last story and informed Sol Brodsky that it was his last story. In person.)

Lee: And that’s it, so this is the acid test now, because he was such a popular artist

(You mean such a popular WRITER/ARTIST)

Lee: I think that we’ve managed to find people to replace him, where those boos will change to a chorus of cheers. (Uncomfortable murmuring and some chuckles)

(It’s hindsight now, obviously, over 55 years later, but you just want the cheerleader Lee to come out here… “We’ve got a guy, I know you’re going to love him…”, but this being an early speaking engagement, and feeling the lack of warmth from the audience on the subject, Stan treads, very smartly, in a softer direction.)

Lee: I know how it is, you get sentimental about an artist, especially one as good as he and I feel the same way…

(Mmmmhmmm…)

Lee: But at any rate, we’re so tight and we’re so limited, that if we (lose one person) it’s a major crisis, so when you say ‘are we gonna give somebody else their own books, we can just barely get 10 pages of Doctor Strange out each month.

Lee really is pouring his frustration out here…  There’s no 8 issue restriction. They don’t have the RESOURCES. When Goodman cut the staff after the implosion to the bare minimum (Stan in a room with a desk), he essentially cut the number of books - and the most Stan could put together in a month was 8.

And those books SUCKED. Stan on HIS OWN, didn’t even make a dent in the business.

As soon as Kirby came back full time and hit his stride - he made books that SOLD.

Stan didn’t want THAT history to be seen.

Sure, he had someone who could knock out the story and art for a couple of stories in a couple of books each month as well as do the majority of covers… but Stan wanted the credit and the pay.

He had to change the narrative, so the truth would be hidden and HE would be seen as the creative force behind everything.

Truthfully, only with the pure power, creativity, and workhorse effort of a Jack Kirby - both writing AND drawing, could he have ever seen Marvel get back on its feet.

And even then Stan was struggling to keep it together. Because he had no staff. There was no Bullpen.

He hired others - his brother, who was NOT a very good writer - Robert Bernstein, Wally Wood, Joe Orlando… they’d all clash with what Stan wanted…

Stan wanted someone who would do all the work, and not complain when HE took the credit.

Kirby mostly did that. Ditko didn’t.

Instead of embracing Ditko’s ability to do a book and a half a month on his own - Stan had to have that credit and that pay - so much so that he was willing to let Ditko walk.

And the 2nd best thing to happen to Stan Lee (after Kirby) during all of this, was TWO things: he got John Romita - who was willing to do all the work, accept the credit Stan took, and… keep his mouth shut about it AND Roy Thomas, the fan boy who could fan his flame for him - do all the work, accept the credit Stan took, and… push the narrative that Stan wanted.

THIS is the true History of Marvel Comics.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales of Suspense #38 - Jack Kirby would do the cover (it's believed he inked it himself).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales of Suspense #38 - What was suddenly going on with Jack Kirby? He wasn't doing Tales of Suspense? He'd drop a total of four books? And it all happens right around the time he'd find out Larry Lieber's name was being added as the ---script writer for his stories...

In actuality, it's also around the time that Stan started writing '---script: Stan Lee' on FF and the Hulk instead of 'Stan Lee & J. Kirby'.

Let's look at this complete issue and see if we can discover any clues...

The first story is done by Jack Davis and... how do we know that? There's no credit box, no signature, nothing... it's job number X-14, so it's done well within the change to credit boxes... WHY no credit box? GCD credits Stan Lee with the plot and Larry Lieber with the ---script...???

This reads like a Stan Lee story and it is of course, in a sense that its one he's used a similar premise before, in a much simpler form in Amazing Adult Fantasy #11 (with Steve Ditko V-473) - that very same month Kirby had done a Genie-gone-wrong story in Journey Into Mystery #76 (V-459). Hmmm.

Edited January 29, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales of Suspense #38 - Next we have a Don Heck story that Stan plotted and Larry scripted! How do we know this? Because this one HAS a credit box! There's no job number listed, but we can assume it was assigned at the same time...

Maybe all of Marvel's Editors aren't communicating wi.... wait there's only ONE editor!

Anyway, I GUESS it reads like a Larry story as the whole premise and delivery of it is even more hokey than one of Stan's 'brain teasers'. Am I being too harsh? No. This really is a ridiculous story. 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales of Suspense #38 - And lastly, Stan Lee and Steve Ditko also had a story in this issue, STILL signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash with no credit box! Three stories, three different ways of showing (or not showing) who did them. 

It also would go 50 years before its ever reprinted...

This issue is what a 1962, Kirby-less Marvel would look like...

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/29/2023 at 10:35 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Tales of Suspense #38 - Next we have a Don Heck story that Stan plotted and Larry scripted! How do we know this? Because this one HAS a credit box! There's no job number listed, but we can assume it was assigned at the same time...

Maybe all of Marvel's Editors aren't communicating wi.... wait there's only ONE editor!

Anyway, I GUESS it reads like a Larry story as the whole premise and delivery of it is even more hokey than one of Stan's 'brain teasers'. Am I being too harsh? No. This really is a ridiculous story. 

Ray Holloway's first credit as letterer, after 15 years on staff!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Jack Kirby also did the cover for Gunsmoke Western #74 this month, inked by D. Ayers.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #32 - Jack Kirby would do the cover and two stories for the issue, all inked by D. Ayers (who also does the lettering on both stories). We know this because Stan uses a credit box. 

Story ONE: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #32 - Jack Kirby would do the cover and two stories for the issue, all inked by D. Ayers (who also does the lettering on both stories). We know this because Stan uses a credit box. 

Story TWO: 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #32 - In the OTHER story in the issue, Al Hartley does the art with Stan Lee providing the story (one you'll already recognize, of course) and we know this because... it's signed 'Stan Lee & Al Hartley'. Why no credit box? 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Magnus Robot Fighter #1 - Also out this month was Gold Key's Magnus Robot Fighter #1 with a George Wilson painted cover (from a Russ Manning sketch). Interior story and art by Russ Manning, though the hugely influential Three Laws of Robotics first appeared in an Issac Asimov short story from 1942 (Runaround) and are repeated here verbatim without credit. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 1/30/2023 at 4:14 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1962

Rawhide Kid #32 - In the OTHER story in the issue, Al Hartley does the art with Stan Lee providing the story (one you'll already recognize, of course) and we know this because... it's signed 'Stan Lee & Al Hartley'. Why no credit box? 

No job number either. An inventory story from earlier in 1962, perhaps?

Hartley's art looks much better in this story than in the Thor fill-in he did around this time!

Edited January 30, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added "story"