Newsstand collectors: What is your starting year for collecting and are you grade specific? 2 2

[Dr. Balls]

I know there is data out there showing when the newsstand numbers become far less than the direct market - but I was curious to the "when" people start collecting them? I generally look at books from 1991-upward, and I'm not terribly grade specific. I prefer "not hammered" as a general rule. I don't think I start looking at paying a premium until the early 2000s and even then, it's only for covers I really like.

[kimik]

Canadian newsstand or regular newsstand keys and hot covers. No need to chase commons.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:03 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I know there is data out there showing when the newsstand numbers become far less than the direct market

Not really. There's some data that can be used as a half-decent starting point to get a vague idea and a lot of ridiculous nonsense that someone made up.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:10 PM, kimik said:

Canadian newsstand or regular newsstand keys and hot covers. No need to chase commons.

I think you missed a key word in the question.

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:56 PM, Lazyboy said:

Not really. There's some data that can be used as a half-decent starting point to get a vague idea and a lot of ridiculous nonsense that someone made up.

Fair enough - I have not delved into much of it, other than superficially, but I did find this Erik Larsen reference interesting, what are your thoughts on it:

https://spawncomics.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/spawn-the-savage-dragon-1-1996/

I'm sure there's a newsstand thread around here somewhere, but since we're talking about the believability of newsstand numbers I feel it's fair game to discuss in this thread.

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:13 PM, Dr. Balls said:

Fair enough - I have not delved into much of it, other than superficially, but I did find this Erik Larsen reference interesting, what are your thoughts on it:

https://spawncomics.wordpress.com/2015/11/08/spawn-the-savage-dragon-1-1996/

Benjamin Nobel is a scummy huckster who is completely full of . And that's the polite version.

Savage Dragon sales are a good indicator... of Savage Dragon sales, and nothing else. The title was not a good seller, period. I don't doubt that it wasn't worth it for Larsen to continue newsstand distribution on his book. Frankly, I'm pretty surprised that he (specifically Erik Larsen and his new Image title, Savage Dragon) took the chance on the newsstand market to begin with.

On 1/10/2023 at 7:13 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I'm sure there's a newsstand thread around here somewhere, but since we're talking about the believability of newsstand numbers I feel it's fair game to discuss in this thread.

There are multiple threads about Newsstands, all full of gullible insufficiently_thoughtful_persons repeating insane claims made by even bigger insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, with a few people trying to set the record straight.

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/10/2023 at 6:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

Benjamin Nobel is a scummy huckster who is completely full of . And that's the polite version.

Savage Dragon sales are a good indicator... of Savage Dragon sales, and nothing else. The title was not a good seller, period. I don't doubt that it wasn't worth it for Larsen to continue newsstand distribution on his book. Frankly, I'm pretty surprised that he (specifically Erik Larsen and his new Image title, Savage Dragon) took the chance on the newsstand market to begin with.

There are multiple threads about Newsstands, all full of gullible insufficiently_thoughtful_persons repeating insane claims made by even bigger insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, with a few people trying to set the record straight.

I didn't look too hard for a newsstand thread (I gave up after page three) - perhaps safe to assume there's not a big collector base here (other than the posters in the 'show us your newsstand' thread) - or maybe I'm in the wrong area of the forum? I figured the lower newsstand numbers would have started happening in the mid-to-late 90's?

All evidence available aside - you think the newsstand concept of collecting is mostly hype? Justified collectibility with a very thin premise of smaller print runs? A way for Ebayers to sell a VF book at 20X their Direct Edition NM counterpart?

[Lazyboy]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I didn't look too hard for a newsstand thread (I gave up after page three) - perhaps safe to assume there's not a big collector base here (other than the posters in the 'show us your newsstand' thread) - or maybe I'm in the wrong area of the forum?

Most of the Newsstand threads are in the Modern forum. There seems to be slightly less nonsense here lately, so there hasn't been a good one in a little while. There was this gem, though. I think this was the last big thread.

On 1/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I figured the lower newsstand numbers would have started happening in the mid-to-late 90's?

Newsstand distribution for comics started dying its very slow death in the 1970s. The 70s were not a good time for comic publishers, which is why they embraced the direct market (or ceased operations). It's not totally accurate to graph newsstand sales as a simple, gentle downward slope, but it's close enough as a general concept.

In the mid-late 90s, the direct market was in trouble. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe that the newsstand market was doing any worse then than its slow, general trend or that there was ever an event that caused a sudden, more rapid decline. Of course, even with a slow decline, there came a point where publishers decided that newsstand distribution could no longer be justified.

On 1/10/2023 at 8:35 PM, Dr. Balls said:

All evidence available aside - you think the newsstand concept of collecting is mostly hype? Justified collectibility with a very thin premise of smaller print runs? A way for Ebayers to sell a VF book at 20X their Direct Edition NM counterpart?

I know that Newsstands are one of multiple versions of many comics and are considered 'different' by some people. I think there's nothing wrong with collecting Newsstands. I think some people genuinely like them for various reasons. I know that, historically, the vast majority of collectors have not cared about Newsstands. I know the current Newsstand market cannot be separated from the literally unbelievable hype and lies that have proliferated for years now.

[PeterPark]

The newsstands I care about, for the most part, are Marvels from 1999 til the end in...2013, was it?

Among those, I mostly focus on Amazing Spider-Man. Luckily, I was buying them throughout at Barnes and Noble and Stop and Shop, when I could find them. I wasn't a real stickler though and still have many holes. They are definitely more rare but sensible numbers for what is out there do not exist.

[revat]

I’m in it for Cgc 9.8 (or higher) Darkhawk

Trying to get the set 1-37 plus two annuals.

 

 

[Dr. Balls]

On 1/10/2023 at 8:28 PM, Lazyboy said:

 I know the current Newsstand market cannot be separated from the literally unbelievable hype and lies that have proliferated for years now.

I think the one thing I've really noticed is that Ebay sellers have got diamond hands when it comes to their newsstands. When I place Best Offers on books that have previous auction sales of 1/4 asking price of the BIN newsstand listings, I am thrown offers of 10% off their list price - way above established market value.

Which - I understand the logic. If you find a newsstand at your LCS for $1-$3 and hold out to sell it for $70-$80, there's no real motivation to sell for $20, because you have so little into it. It's a wait-and-see scenario to see if these catch on. (Perhaps a NewssstandBets subreddit?) I will always be curious to the real motivation of CGC adding the 'newsstand' description to the label (resubs? Is there really that many people resubbing a newssstand for that label? At that cost? With shipping prices the way they are? With the TAT being a year+?). Perhaps bigger fish sitting on piles of high grade newsstands waiting for the trend to pop lobbied CGC to add it?

I find it all interesting.

[Parabellum]

The only newsstand books I actively collect is the 1986 Punisher Limited Series in 9.8.  Outside of that if I could care less.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Parabellum

[ramrod44]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:45 PM, Parabellum said:

The only newsstand books I actively collect is the 1986 Punisher Limited Series in 9.8.  Outside of that if I could care less.  

Before Spring of 82 (Bronze Age) I'm o.k. with either newsstand or fat diamond directs but after that date..........I have NO INTEREST in direct Marvel/DC comics. If it's just a newsstand then it has to be 9.8. If it's a double variant (CPV, Mark Jewelers or APV) then I'll go as low as 9.4 for a MJ, 9.0 for a CPV and 8.5 for an APV. The only exception to that rule is for McFarlane Spiderman & Hulk. For those I'm o.k. with 9.6 Newsies. 

[valiantman]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

There are multiple threads about Newsstands, all full of gullible insufficiently_thoughtful_persons repeating insane claims made by even bigger insufficiently_thoughtful_persons, with a few people trying to set the record straight.

Hopefully, I'm in the "people trying to set the record straight" group. If so, here's this: http://www.slabdata.com/blog/2021/newsstand-books-the-way-it-was/ which is the introduction to this: https://comics.gpanalysis.com/news/2021/newsstand-direct-edition-data-where-gpanalysis-is-leading-the-way

(Somewhat) short answer: Newsstands vary by title, issue, and publisher. Wolverine Limited Series #1 (1982) is probably harder to find in high grade newsstand than Amazing Spider-Man #361 (1992)... though the 10 year difference would have people thinking that newsstand in 1982 was very common. No, the behavior of buyers toward newsstands in the few weeks they were on the stand determines the survival rates 40+ years later. Wolverine #1 Limited Series (1982) was ordered in huge direct edition quantities, so there was little need to buy the newsstand a few weeks later.  Meanwhile, Amazing Spider-Man #361 was underordered in direct edition, so comic collectors (who normally bought direct editions) went out and gathered up all the newsstands. So, they're almost as common as direct editions today. 

The "good" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" is that no one cared (extra) about the book and it wasn't special in those weeks it sat on the shelf. When demand grew (years later), it was too late to save newsstands that were returned. The "best" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" (relative to the direct edition) is that comic shops overordered the direct editions with plenty available everywhere, so there was very little demand for newsstands even among collectors. The "worst" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" is that the book was instantly popular and all the newsstands were (also) scooped up by collectors (ASM #361-#363, Thor #337-#339, and others).

In all these examples, we're talking about "relative scarcity"... for a particular title, issue, and publisher.  Relative to Spawn #1 direct edition, the Spawn #1 newsstand is "scarce" to the tune of about 7% (vs. 93% for direct edition).  Relative to other books (different titles, issues, publishers), Spawn #1 newsstand is extremely common, since it was a 1992 book with over 100,000 newsstands printed (and saved).

Edited January 20, 2023 by valiantman

[Lazyboy]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:06 AM, valiantman said:

Hopefully, I'm in the "people trying to set the record straight" group.

You're not part of the first group, though you stray a bit too close sometimes.

[divad]

I'm in the "Whatever copy I have for sale is worth more" group. 

[ramrod44]

On 1/20/2023 at 9:06 AM, valiantman said:

Hopefully, I'm in the "people trying to set the record straight" group. If so, here's this: http://www.slabdata.com/blog/2021/newsstand-books-the-way-it-was/ which is the introduction to this: https://comics.gpanalysis.com/news/2021/newsstand-direct-edition-data-where-gpanalysis-is-leading-the-way

(Somewhat) short answer: Newsstands vary by title, issue, and publisher. Wolverine Limited Series #1 (1982) is probably harder to find in high grade newsstand than Amazing Spider-Man #361 (1992)... though the 10 year difference would have people thinking that newsstand in 1982 was very common. No, the behavior of buyers toward newsstands in the few weeks they were on the stand determines the survival rates 40+ years later. Wolverine #1 Limited Series (1982) was ordered in huge direct edition quantities, so there was little need to buy the newsstand a few weeks later.  Meanwhile, Amazing Spider-Man #361 was underordered in direct edition, so comic collectors (who normally bought direct editions) went out and gathered up all the newsstands. So, they're almost as common as direct editions today. 

The "good" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" is that no one cared (extra) about the book and it wasn't special in those weeks it sat on the shelf. When demand grew (years later), it was too late to save newsstands that were returned. The "best" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" (relative to the direct edition) is that comic shops overordered the direct editions with plenty available everywhere, so there was very little demand for newsstands even among collectors. The "worst" scenario for newsstand "scarcity" is that the book was instantly popular and all the newsstands were (also) scooped up by collectors (ASM #361-#363, Thor #337-#339, and others).

In all these examples, we're talking about "relative scarcity"... for a particular title, issue, and publisher.  Relative to Spawn #1 direct edition, the Spawn #1 newsstand is "scarce" to the tune of about 7% (vs. 93% for direct edition).  Relative to other books (different titles, issues, publishers), Spawn #1 newsstand is extremely common, since it was a 1992 book with over 100,000 newsstands printed (and saved).

Well put,..... I would like to add that I'm old enough to have lived and worked during the late 70's and early 80's in the convenience & grocery store industry so I saw first hand "with thy own eyes" how newsstands were treated. I worked at over 30 different stores with different delivery drivers and they all treated their Magazines and Comics the same...... like spoon. They were for reading, not collecting. Very few of the comics they delivered were strict NM, 90% were vf/nm 9.0 or worse. This is why newsstands in strict NM/M 9.6/9.8 are so rare compared to their direct counterparts.

[paqart]

Most of the comics I buy are variants. When I buy non-variants, it is because they are either included as part of a group that has the comics I want, or they are the only version of the comic with the cover I am looking for. I will buy newsstands regardless of year but different years have different interest levels.

2013-2017: DC only (no Marvels after 2013) buy if I like the cover or it has strong collector interest. For the most part I don't like these comics, so I am buying them as collectibles only

2011-2013/Marvel/DC: These seem easier to find than slightly earlier Marvel newsstands and I don't like the storylines much so, like DC, only if I like the cover or other collectors have made these into keys. The exception is Marvel's 3rd Daredevil series. I like these a lot but still haven't found all of the issues in newsstand. 

2008-2010 Marvel/DC: I will buy almost anything published in this time period, regardless of title/issue. These, and with DC, slightly earlier dates, are the hardest to find. At least for me. Others might have different luck. My guess is that by 2010, dealers had figured out how rare newsstands are, so they started buying them, thus making them easier to find than this group despite similar print runs. Collectors could have accomplished the same thing by targeting newsstands. Either way, awareness of newsstand rarity seems to have positively affected survival rates starting in about 2010.

2002-2010 DC: Certain DC titles are very hard to find in newsstand editions from this time period. My targets in this range are: Catwoman, Batgirl, Jonah Hex, Swamp Thing, Detective, Supergirl, and a few others. I haven't come anywhere close to finding the Jonah Hex issues I am looking for. In fact, the only JH issues I have found, I bought, and there are only 3 of them, all from the same seller. I have half the Catwoman run, about 60% of the Supergirls, and maybe 10% of the Detectives and none of the rest.

1999-2007 Marvel: Certain titles/issues only. There are a lot of collectible rare issues in this group, including the rarest of all newsstands, but most seem a little easier to find than Marvels between 2008-2010.

Oct/Nov/Dec 1999 and 1/00-2/00: I am actively buying only about 24 comics from the 90's decade. All are Marvel price variants printed in the last 2 months of 1999. Another dozen or so (32 total) were published in the first 2 months of 2000. Each of 3 issues for 6 titles has 3 price variants. Or rather, one normal price and 2 variants, for 3 total cover price possibilities. They are $1.99, $2.29, and $2.49. I just missed one of these a few days a go, a Thor #18 $2.49 price variant, because I felt like sleeping in. First time I'd ever seen one for sale. Most of these, I've never seen for sale. They are all newsstands btw. @Get Marwood & I has a thread on this where he shows photos of most or all of these.

1990-1999: With the exception of Marvel's price variants and an occasional stray bundled with something else, I completely ignore the 90's decade. I pencilled and inked some comics for Marvel and DC in this period but as a collector, am insulted by the proliferation of sales gimmicks used to sell comics in this time frame. On top of that, not only are newsstands fairly easy to find with these dates but almost everything is easy to find in this range. As a result, it just isn't that much fun to hunt for these. Now that I think about it, there a few other comics I will buy from this decade, though not many.

1980's: Canadian variants and/or Jeweler's inserts only. Newsstands in a good grade are still harder to find than directs in high grade, despite lopsided print runs that favor directs, but both are still fairly easy to find. Canadian variants, particularly in high grade, are extremely difficult to find. With those, I feel lucky to find a 9.0, let alone anything higher. Note that all Canadians are also newsstands, same for Jeweler's inserts. The Jeweler's inserts are even more difficult to find in a good grade than the Canadians. Recently, I got lucky and got a first Taskmaster on cover (forget the issue) from the Avengers (#195? 196?) with a jeweler's insert in about 9+.

1979-1980: Strike through direct UPC boxes. Not super-hard to find but preferred to newsstands

1962-1980: UK price variants

Pre 1962: UK and Canadian price variants

I also buy 30 cent Marvel price variants. I want to get some 35 cent price variants but the ones I've seen are always out of my price range.

Last, I am trying to put together an ASM run from 500-700 plus the V2 issues from 1-50. I think I have about 75% of the run to date, with a lot of dupes. Some of these, I have around 15x-20x copies, all newsstand but by the time we get to the 600's, that dries up to one each for most issues, not for lack of trying to find them. #700 OTOH, I have around 5x copies of that, 2-3 of which are slabbed.

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by paqart

[Get Marwood & I]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:40 PM, paqart said:

Nov/Dec 1999 and 1/00-2/00: I am actively buying only 24 comics from the 90's decade. All are Marvel price variants printed in the last 2 months of 1999. Another 12 were published in the first 2 months of 2000. Each of 3 issues for 6 titles has 3 price variants. Or rather, one normal price and 2 variants, for 3 total cover price possibilities. They are $1.99, $2.29, and $2.49. I just missed one of these a few days a go, a Thor #18 $2.49 price variant, because I felt like sleeping in. First time I'd ever seen one for sale. Most of these, I've never seen for sale. They are all newsstands btw. @Get Marwood & I has a thread on this where he shows photos of most or all of these.

They exist between the cover dates Oct 1999 to Feb 2000 Paq, with 32 confirmed price variants (last time I checked):

https://boards.cgccomics.com/blogs/entry/4922-marvel-1999-~-2000-us-newsstand-price-variants/

[divad]

The newsstand phenomena is particularly absurd as most of us collectors (from the sixties and early 70s) eschewed the appearance of the barcode from its very beginning . . . and on the front cover?!? Absolutely no need to impact the cover art.

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by divad