Overrated Key "First" Books 5 5

[shadroch]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:00 PM, the blob said:

Well there are not vastly more GS X-Men 1 in the CGC census. There are mor, 9K+ to 12K+e. X-Men 94's cover shows more boo boos for sure. I vaguely remember GS #1 was in the Mile High 2 hoard in quantity, but that would not explain why X-Men 94 was the more expensive book in 1982 or whatever as well as MH 2 was a couple of years later. And being a #1 was probably ordered more than #94 of a comic that had been in reprints for years. But absolutely, when I was a kid 1980-82 X-Men 94 had the edge.

The number of either book that was ordered was miniscule.  This was pre-direct distribution. The whole reason for the Giant Size books existing was to get them into places that didn't want to bother with twenty cent comics that they made eight cents on.  94 was much more desirable when I had my shops, but by the early ebay days, that had changed.

I've never seen sales numbers for the GS books, but Marvel abandoned the line in under two years so I imagine they weren't happy with the numbers.

[southern cross]

Question.

If Dr strange appeared in the last panel of issue Strange Tales 109

And had his first cover and was in a full story in Strange Tales 110

Which is his first appearance and which book would be a blue chip key?

[Krydel4]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:24 PM, southern cross said:

Question.

If Dr strange appeared in the last panel of issue Strange Tales 109

And had his first cover and was in a full story in Strange Tales 110

Which is his first appearance and which book would be a blue chip key?

ST109 is first cameo appearance. ST110 is first full appearance and the blue chipper because of the cover. IMHO I think that if All-Star 8 had Wonder Woman on the cover it would easily be in the ballpark of what AC1 and Tec27 sell for today. As it doesn't, it lags far behind. Same deal for ST110. Imagine how much that book would be if it had the Doctor Strange 169 cover. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Krydel4
Clarity

[unclezebo]

On 1/23/2023 at 10:08 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 1/23/2023 at 10:05 PM, Jesse-Lee said:

Is Dylan Venom?

Who?

[sfcityduck]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:14 PM, Lazyboy said:

 What?

No, a single page is not a full appearance, which has nothing to do with how much of the character is drawn by the artist.

 

Roy Thomas, co-creator, says: "Obviously it's 180 because he's in that last panel," Thomas tells ComicBook.com. Thomas co-created the character with Len Wein and John Romita. "It's just that the other is a full story and the one's a panel of it. But the first appearance is in #180, obviously."  (Roy, an old time collector, knows that no one thinks that Galactus's first appearance is FF 49.)  

And what do we see in IH 180?:

The installation in which Alpha Flight was assembled and the first reference to "Weapon X:" 

The story then shifts to future Alpha Flight member Wendigo, and finally we the first appearance of Wolverine in full, in costume, talking, in story continuity, with exposition on his backgound - that he is "Weapon X":

In short, he's a thread in the story throughout.  He just does not appear until the final page.  But an appearance is an appearance.  This is not someone lurking in the shadows.

Should 180 be worth more than 181?  I'm not arguing that.  A first appearance does not need to be the most valuable appearance of character.  In today's CGC world where covers have disproportionate weight, that 181 is worth more than 180 is not surprising.  But it does not mean that 181 is the first appearance - just that it is the more valuable book in the marketplace. 

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:02 PM, southern cross said:

Well this thread went in one theme with Spidey, 

What appearance is the Hobgoblin here.

Was it still Ned Leeds?

 

Don't get me started...

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:08 PM, grebal said:

Interesting, thank you.  Never having looked it up, I've generally read it as "retroactively conceived."  I.e. the PTB decided later that they would rewrite established history.

Won't dive into the hornet's nest of the main topic, except to comment that in the 8 years or so I've been back collecting, I noticed a large increase in the value of Hulk 180 as a percentage of 181.  I've assumed mainly that this was because of the huge run ups we've seen in prices (can't afford a 181 so buy this other one), but maybe the persistent argument of "well, 180 is technically Wolv's first appearance" has gained traction. 

So for all those with stockpiles of the "lesser" counterparts to a key book, keep it up!  Ya never know.

There's nothing technical about it, it is his first appearance. #181 is just more appealing as an introduction to the character. Maybe we could just change the classification. I vehemently hate the first "full" appearance thing. Why not say #180 is the "First appearance of Wolverine" and #181 is the "Introduction of Wolverine". Amazing Spider-Man #299 is the "First appearance of Venom" and #300 is the "Introduction of Venom"? Just an idea...

[trademarkcomics]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:24 PM, southern cross said:

Question.

If Dr strange appeared in the last panel of issue Strange Tales 109

And had his first cover and was in a full story in Strange Tales 110

Which is his first appearance and which book would be a blue chip key?

The answer should be #109 and both. Why not? I mean there's plenty of room for a major character to have two books worth basically the same value. I mean, If you own Hulk #181, how could you not want to own #180 and vice-versa? You can say that of even GSX #1 and X-Men #94. They just go together. Spidey's introductory two issues are also interesting since both of his first two appearances are worth a truckload of cash. One because it's his first appearance and origin and one because it's the 1st issue of his main title. I mean, what does ASM #1 have as firsts? First John Jameson? OOO! First Chameleon? AHHH! First Marvel crossover? WOW. Not exactly the type of stuff that by itself would garner a whole lot of value, but who cares? It's Amazing Spider-Man Number freaking ONE! 

 

BTW, I really love the Monty Python gifs...keep 'em coming!

[southern cross]

Overrated first appearances. Okay!

New Mutants 98.

Read this book and didn't think the Deadpool character was any good. Had the character been written funny like his solo series I could see him being popular straight away.

Omega Men 3.

Read this and didn't think wow what a great character Lobo is. Once again it took some creative writing after the character's appearance for him to be liked.

Then compare these two books to like House of Secrets 92 or Amazing Spiderman 129. These characters were cool in their first appearance. Yes the characters have been worked on since making them more popular.

At least their first appearance in the stories had a good solid base to work from.

Don't believe me. Then just be entertained by some dancing.

[LadyDeath]

On 1/23/2023 at 12:38 AM, trademarkcomics said:

2. Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars #8

 

 3. Uncanny X-Men #266

 

I hate seeing these littered all over social media. Comic book collecting subreddit especially. Very annoying.

[F For Fake]

On 1/23/2023 at 9:44 PM, Gatsby77 said:

 

Ditto Hulk # 359. Wolverine's on the cover, but he's not in the book.

I remember being SOOOO disappointed when I read that book as a kid. oh well, the cover is still cool!

[comicginger1789]

I do think X-Men #94 is overvalued as a key

I disagree with Secret Wars #8, only because it is a great image from a fun story that ties into the history of the greatest costume change and one of Spidey's greatest foes ever. Plus, for me, when held next to ASM #252 (which is cool but a swipe) and MTU #142, it is the superior cover.

The Hulk 180, 181, 182 debate interests me in no way other than if I get either one, I sell for whatever I can because I despise Hulk from that era and Wolverine, while a solid character, is not fleshed out or loved enough by me to care about debating this "trilogy" of books, hence why I take the money and run to by silver age ASM

[icp004]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:48 AM, comicginger1789 said:

I disagree with Secret Wars #8, only because it is a great image from a fun story that ties into the history of the greatest costume change and one of Spidey's greatest foes ever. Plus, for me, when held next to ASM #252 (which is cool but a swipe) and MTU #142, it is the superior cover.

I’m in this camp. 

[jjonahjameson11]

Jimmy Olsen 134 gets my vote.

one panel appearance, on a TV monitor no less!!!!

[the blob]

On 1/24/2023 at 12:23 AM, shadroch said:

The number of either book that was ordered was miniscule.  This was pre-direct distribution. The whole reason for the Giant Size books existing was to get them into places that didn't want to bother with twenty cent comics that they made eight cents on.  94 was much more desirable when I had my shops, but by the early ebay days, that had changed.

I've never seen sales numbers for the GS books, but Marvel abandoned the line in under two years so I imagine they weren't happy with the numbers.

Well, if the mob was claiming they weren't selling only to stash them in chuck's future warehouse....

I have plenty of the Giant Size books in my collection, I don't think they sold that badly. There are 12K+ GS X-Men 1 in the census.

 

[WolverineX]

On 1/23/2023 at 12:38 AM, trademarkcomics said:

Here is my list of the most overrated key books from the Silver Age to Copper Age. These are my opinions of course and I know there will be many who disagree. That's why I'm starting a thread so we can discuss differing opinions on the subject. I'm hoping it won't devolve into another debate about what is a first appearance and what's not...but it probably will.

Mods: I looked for a thread on this subject and found nothing when I searched the term "overrated" but please close the thread if you deem it to be redundant. 

My Top Five list(may expand it later):

1. X-Men #94

 What is it a "first" of? The first issue of the "New" X-Men.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it has zero first appearances, and Giant-Size X-Men is not only the true first issue of the new X-Men, it's even a #1 issue!

 My comments: This book used to be worth more than GSX #1...let me say that again, there was a time when a book with #94 on the cover with no first appearances was actually more valuable than the first appearances of Storm, Nightcrawler and Colossus and the 2nd full appearance of some guy named Wolverine in a #1 issue. Luckily, we came to our senses awhile ago on that, but I still feel this book is way overvalued(or GSX 1 is undervalued...or both). 

2. Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars #8

 What is it a "first" of? The first in-continuity appearance of the black alien costume which eventually joins with Eddie Brock to become Venom.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because it came out 8 months after the alien costume's first actual appearance(it's still listed as the first in some places).

 My comments: It's also described as the "origin" by CGC and while this may be the origin of Spidey putting the costume on, there is absolutely no explanation of where the costume came from. In fact, there is more revealed about the costume and the fact that it's a living symbiote in Amazing Spider-Man #258, which came out a month before and worth a fraction of Secret Wars #8!

 Honorable mention that connects to this: Marvel Team-Up #141 which is described by many as a "tie" with Amazing Spider-Man #252, but came out TWO WEEKS later. 

 3. Uncanny X-Men #266

 What is it a "first" of? This is the first appearance of Gambit. Or is it?

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because everyone already knows that this came out weeks after X-Men Annual #14. Which may be described as a "cameo" of Gambit, but he has lines and appearances throughout the book. He's just not the focus of the story.

 My comments: I know, I know. This one is brought up all the time and everyone is tired of it. But let's look at this rationally. X-Men Annual #14 came out THREE WEEKS before. And was solicited in the prior month. It's also drawn by Art Adams, while #266 was drawn by some fill-in artist name Mike Collins(where's he now?). Who would you rather Gambit be drawn by? #266 should be worth something just like Secret Wars #8 since it's the first in-continuity appearance, but the reality is what it is. X-Men Annual #14 is the first true appearance of the character. 

4. Incredible Hulk #182 

 What is it a "first" of? This is the first appearance of Hammer and Anvil. Uh...you know those guys, right? They were huge.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? Because this is valuable due to a cameo of Wolverine at the beginning of the book. Giant Size X-Men #1 is known as the second appearance of Wolvie, so what does this make Hulk #182?

 My comments: #182 deserves some value since it's a Wolverine cameo, but this is treated like the third part of some kind of epic trilogy. Wolverine's lines in his three panels on the first page of this book are as follows: "No! You can't do this to me! My failure was only a temporary setback! I can still defeat that big brute! I can!" and "But the Hulk! What about the Hulk?" Then there's not one mention of him again. Wow. Worth hundreds of dollars to me!

5. Incredible Hulk #181

 What is it a "first" of? The first cover and full in-story appearance of Wolverine.

 Why is it an overrated "first"? In Incredible Hulk #180 there is a command to  "Mobilize Weapon X!" at the beginning of the book, and we see Wolvie in all of his glory at the end.

 My comments: #181 deserves to be treasured due to the entire story being devoted to Wolverine and his "introduction" on the cover(which is why it's at the bottom of this list...and this issue's notoriety and ridiculous value also helps it get on the list at all), but is this really that much different than Hobgoblin's first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #238? Isn't ASM #239 Hobby's first "full" appearance after we only see him for one splash page at the end of #238(although there is the shadowy cover devoted to him...but are we really that superficial as collectors...wait...)? Yet #238 is overwhelmingly more valuable than #239. Either ASM #239 is way undervalued or Hulk #181 is way overvalued. 

Honorable mention that connects to this: Those books with ads for Hulk #181. They came out the month Hulk #181 was released. Last I checked Hulk #180 came out a month earlier. Yeah.

 

 

 

X-94 was Chris Claremont 's first work on the Xmen run.  For many of us,  he was the beginning of the X-men magic that spanned for a long time. 

 

I don't agree it's overrated.  The market is efficient.  It is priced at where people value it.  

[shadroch]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:35 AM, the blob said:

Well, if the mob was claiming they weren't selling only to stash them in chuck's future warehouse....

I have plenty of the Giant Size books in my collection, I don't think they sold that badly. There are 12K+ GS X-Men 1 in the census.

 

Have you ever seen numbers for the GS books? I haven't, but if they were successful the line wouldn't have disappeared.

Who can say where your copies came from? They might have been bought off the newstand or they might be from unsold hoards.  Chucks buy wasn't the only such stash. A guy in Pennsylvania sold hundreds of copies going back twenty years or so.

[southern cross]

X-Men 94 is equivalent to Flash 105.

So it's not overrated.

[Gatsby77]

On 1/24/2023 at 11:15 AM, southern cross said:

X-Men 94 is equivalent to Flash 105.

So it's not overrated.

This.

As some have noted, X-Men 94 for years was more expensive than GS # 1 because it was harder to find in high grade (9.0+). IIRC, a 9.8 didn't even exist until ~10 years ago.

But it's *also* key because it restarts the run. If it didn't exist, GS # 1 would just be a one-off - like the first appearance of the Great Lakes Avengers - or maybe The Champions. Still key as the 2nd full Wolverine? Sure. But X-Men 94 - and the 50 issues that followed *made* GS # 1 important.

And as someone who once owned - and read - X-Men 94-304, virtually the only ones I care about are 94-143.

The late '80s/early '90s run hold some sentimental value, since that's when I was buying the mutant titles off the shelves - but 94-143 were also reprinted in the 80s by Classic X-Men, thus introducing my generation to the Cockrum/Claremont/Byrne runs.

[Jesse-Lee]

Here's Damian Wayne in Batman 655 - considered by collectors to be his first appearance, and the pricier of the 3 books that make up his "first appearance":

 

Here he is in 656, on the final page:

 

And here's the cover and first page of 657, where he's featured throughout the book:

 

So, which is his real first appearance? Is it 655 because that's the one collectors gravitate to? And don't even get me started on Killer Croc...