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Overrated Key "First" Books
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Started by trademarkcomics,

321 posts in this topic

Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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On 1/26/2023 at 12:14 PM, D2 said:

It’s the same debate I always have with The Dark Phoenix.

X-Men 135 is the first full appearance of The Dark Phoenix.

134 has the intro, sure… of the character, much like Wolverine, but if a new reader asked for me to recommend their first experience to that character, I’d be recommending X-Men 135 (H181).

Obviously 134 (H180) are integral books for story continuity.

But Dark Phoenix is the same character, just evolving. Wolverine was a brand new character.

On 1/26/2023 at 1:13 PM, D2 said:

Here's another one... The First Appearance of Old Man Logan...

 

Forget this book, or even the cover! which clearly states the obvious:

 

 

No no! No! 

The first appearance, is apparently in Fantastic Four 558... blink and you'll miss him:

 

Again, that's just Wolverine. Old Man Logan is the title of a story, and if you think either of those is the first (or second, or third, or...) time we've seen an old Logan, you need to read more comics.

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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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On 1/26/2023 at 12:44 PM, D2 said:

It's a good question.

So, to answer your question, X-Men 134/135, the first full appearance of The Dark Phoenix is considered to be 134

Is it?

On 1/26/2023 at 12:44 PM, D2 said:

, and based on market pricing, 134 in a 9.8 is $770, $750, $800 (2021, 2022, and 90 day averages), whereas 135 is $500, $570, $475.

That seems reasonable considering the significant supply difference, which always must be considered when looking at prices. (shrug)

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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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On 1/26/2023 at 11:17 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Man, it's been years since I read a solid cameo/1st appearance debate on Wolverine. I see CGC's definition is "1st appearance of Wolverine in cameo" to cover both angles. Has there been a solid definition outlined to establish whether it's one or the other in the past 10 years?

I'm in the 'cameo' corner :gossip:

A first appearance cannot be a cameo. The genius(es) who started that nonsense changed their wording many years ago.

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Gonzimodo

Gonzimodo

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I think the use of the word "cameo" as a first appearance is kind of dumb, really.  To me, a cameo is when a pre-existing character makes a brief appearance in another book, but I'm probably just bringing that idea over from TV and movies.

And as for the first appearance of Old Man Logan, I'll go with Uncanny X-Men 141.  :baiting:

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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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On 1/26/2023 at 12:27 PM, Axelrod said:

Off topic, but what are the books with very brief character appearances, akin to single page/panel cameos, that are also the more valuable book (far as the market is concerned) as compared to the book with what we might call a "full" appearance where the character is more featured? 

That Jimmy Olsen book with Darkseid on the TV monitor?  

Other examples?

Every example I can think of with that criteria has a significant supply difference or an abundance of misinformation floating around about the issue(s).

On 1/26/2023 at 12:27 PM, Axelrod said:

I guess Secret Wars #8 kind of falls into that category, too?    

Since when is it worth more than ASM 252? Regardless, that's another case of misinformation, with people somehow thinking it came out first, even though it actually came out after Spider-Man got rid of the costume/symbiote.

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trademarkcomics

trademarkcomics

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On 1/26/2023 at 10:47 AM, trademarkcomics said:

 

Another would be Jim Rhodes who had a very tiny cameo in Iron Man #118 and doesn't make a true full appearance until #121 and is on the cover of #125. Yet, most consider the first appearance of him  as #118(CGC doesn't even call it a "cameo"). 

im118rhodey.thumb.jpg.510377727cf1dafa7960b6321803dae4.jpg

OMG! I totally missed he was in a third panel!

Rhodey.thumb.jpg.44845333dac7b678ef21775eef06caeb.jpg

I stand corrected, CGC, definitely his first "full" appearance!

I mean Stark called him "Rhodey" after all...a complete introduction of the character---tantamount to an origin story, I'd say.

Edited by trademarkcomics
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D2

D2

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On 1/26/2023 at 3:46 PM, Lazyboy said:

But Dark Phoenix is the same character, just evolving. Wolverine was a brand new character.

Again, that's just Wolverine. Old Man Logan is the title of a story, and if you think either of those is the first (or second, or third, or...) time we've seen an old Logan, you need to read more comics.

You say the same character. I say different. 

There are first appearances of Superman Blue, first appearance of Black Suit Spider-Man, first appearances of all sorts of things… first appearances of ‘silver age’ versions of characters. So I read comics thank you very much. Your belittling attitude is not appreciated and can be left outside the chat room. 
 

On 1/26/2023 at 3:50 PM, Lazyboy said:

Is it?

That seems reasonable considering the significant supply difference, which always must be considered when looking at prices. (shrug)


And we have all had this discussion many many many many times. Where there is no difference in supply vs price. You can’t explain why Hulk 181 with 125+ CGC 9.8s are $100,000 each and more rare books would be lucky to hit… $500  

So, No. Lazyboy. 
Significant supply does not mean consideration when regarding prices.
It’s demand. If you have 1 copy of a book no one wants, no one cares how much it’s “worth”. 
There are 1,000 CGC 9.8 Hulk 340s, and 400 CGC 9.8 X-Men 135s, yet the 340s are 4 times the price. 

Edited by D2
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trademarkcomics

trademarkcomics

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On 1/26/2023 at 2:39 PM, D2 said:

You say the same character. I say different. 

There are first appearances of Superman Blue, first appearance of Black Suit Spider-Man, first appearances of all sorts of things… first appearances of ‘silver age’ versions of characters. So I read comics thank you very much. Your belittling attitude is not appreciated and can be left outside the chat room. 
 


And we have all had this discussion many many many many times. Where there is no difference in supply vs price. You can’t explain why Hulk 181 with 125+ CGC 9.8s are $100,000 each and more rare books would be lucky to hit… $500  

So, No. Lazyboy. 
Significant supply does not mean consideration when regarding prices.
It’s demand. If you have 1 copy of a book no one wants, no one cares how much it’s “worth”. 
There are 1,000 CGC 9.8 Hulk 340s, and 400 CGC 9.8 X-Men 135s, yet the 340s are 4 times the price. 

On our eBay store we specialize in rarities like double covers, factory errors, etc. We command a premium due to the rareness of our books and are willing to wait for the right collector. That said, there have been many "one-of-a-kind" items that we've picked up and were complete dogs(A CGC 9.8 of Blazing Comics #5 with the interior of Action Comics #181 immediately springs to mind) . They just sat there while CGC graded regular ol' Amazing Spider-Man 300s in any grade move and move and move again.

We could publish our own books(and have) with a print run of 1. But no one would care because no market has been created for that book.  

Edited by trademarkcomics
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Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

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Posted (edited)
On 1/26/2023 at 2:25 PM, Gonzimodo said:

I think the use of the word "cameo" as a first appearance is kind of dumb, really.  To me, a cameo is when a pre-existing character makes a brief appearance in another book, but I'm probably just bringing that idea over from TV and movies.

And as for the first appearance of Old Man Logan, I'll go with Uncanny X-Men 141.  :baiting:

Honestly, I am more apt to change my view to this logic. What you and @Lazyboy said make sense in the way that a cameo can't be a first appearance - since cameos are generally established/pre-existing/known characters. 

Edited by Dr. Balls
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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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Posted
On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

You say the same character. I say different. 

That's, well... um, I can't even...

On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

There are first appearances of Superman Blue

Again, just Superman.

On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

, first appearance of Black Suit Spider-Man

:screwy: There is a first appearance of Spider-Man's black suit. "Black Suit Spider-Man" isn't a character, or even a thing. Period.

On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

, first appearances of all sorts of things

Yes.

On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

… first appearances of ‘silver age’ versions of characters.

Um... no, especially how you probably mean it.

On 1/26/2023 at 4:39 PM, D2 said:

And we have all had this discussion many many many many times. Where there is no difference in supply vs price. You can’t explain why Hulk 181 with 125+ CGC 9.8s are $100,000 each and more rare books would be lucky to hit… $500  

So, No. Lazyboy. 
Significant supply does not mean consideration when regarding prices.
It’s demand. If you have 1 copy of a book no one wants, no one cares how much it’s “worth”. 
There are 1,000 CGC 9.8 Hulk 340s, and 400 CGC 9.8 X-Men 135s, yet the 340s are 4 times the price. 

Did I say supply is the sole determinant of price? Of course not, because I'm not a brain-dead, drooling person_having_a_hard_time_understanding_my_point.

Prices are determined by supply and demand. You cannot ignore either one. This is a very basic concept that everyone should be able to understand.

So if you have two issues with similar demand, but significant supply disparity, there will be a price difference.

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MAR1979

MAR1979

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Posted (edited)

Hulk 234

not a first app not even close.2 panels of Wendall Vaugn talking to dudes in suits who call him Marvel Man and he answers call me Quasar. Which at the time was the name of a reasonably price TV set. sarcasm-Gee how historic...-end sarcasm

Amazing the prices uninformed rubes have paid for this true nothing burger over the past several years

Book is sinking like it should but stll more than 3x surrounding issues.  

Call me Quasar -- more like call you a moe ron for paying 400-500 in the pandemic bubble for this less than common issue.

Edited by MAR1979
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