Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

OUT SPRING OF 1963

Larry Herdon's Fanzine, Hero #2, came out in Spring of 1963, and featured a roundtable discussion of comics that is interesting to listen to now... some of the thoughts and feelings are quite different than we might think... Buddy Saunders, of course, would go on to open Lone Star Comics (mycomicshop.com)...

[Prince Namor]

OUT MAY-JUNE OF 1963

From the Fanzine, Masquerade #5, Stan Lee sends a letter of thanks for the praise of Marvel in the previous issue. He also claims to have created almost every character that Marvel has created over the 20 years he's been there.

What???

 

 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/24/2023 at 2:42 PM, Zonker said:

Didn't we see Stan use a similar twist in a previous story shown in one of these threads?  Something about a magnetic weapon defeated by applying black paint to some kind of a plastic macguffin? 

Edit:  Found it-- Hulk #6, vs the Metal Master

Nice work!

Like the Melter story, this one was drawn (and presumably plotted) by Steve Ditko. The plot twist (substituting plastic and cardboard for metal) makes sense, though. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added plastic

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:19 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

OUT SPRING OF 1963

Larry Herdon's Fanzine, Hero #2, came out in Spring of 1963, and featured a roundtable discussion of comics that is interesting to listen to now... some of the thoughts and feelings are quite different than we might think... Buddy Saunders, of course, would go on to open Lone Star Comics (mycomicshop.com)...

Interesting that Kirby was held in low regard by this group. 

[Zonker]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:33 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Interesting that Kirby was held in low regard by this group. 

I'm wondering if it is the inking during this period that is doing Kirby no favors with contemporary fandom.  Kirby/Ayers, Kirby/Stone, Kirby/Roussos are quite a bit less slick and polished-looking than were Infantino/Anderson, Kane/Giella or Marvel's own Steve Ditko. 

It wouldn't surprise me if many Kirby fans followed my own trajectory:  originally introduced through Kirby/Colletta, loved Kirby/Sinnott and Kirby/Wood when I found it reprinted, grew to fully appreciate Kirby/Royer, and only then was ready for some of the numerous other Kirby pairings over the many years.  

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/25/2023 at 6:53 PM, Zonker said:

I'm wondering if it is the inking during this period that is doing Kirby no favors with contemporary fandom.  Kirby/Ayers, Kirby/Stone, Kirby/Roussos are quite a bit less slick and polished-looking than were Infantino/Anderson, Kane/Giella or Marvel's own Steve Ditko. 

It wouldn't surprise me if many Kirby fans followed my own trajectory:  originally introduced through Kirby/Colletta, loved Kirby/Sinnott and Kirby/Wood when I found it reprinted, grew to fully appreciate Kirby/Royer, and only then was ready for some of the numerous other Kirby pairings over the many years.  

I get it--my introduction to Kirby was 1968 FF in mid-70s reprints. It's hard to beat Kirby-Sinnott in peak form. And Kirby/Roussos, as I later discovered, could be pretty bad. After I saw some early FFs, I came to like Stone and Ayers over Kirby's pencils (though not quite so much--Sinnott was vastly superior). Later on, I saw Adkins, Shores, and Giacoia over Kirby pencils in 1968 Captain America reprints--all of them looked good to my eyes.

[Prince Namor]

I suspect it's Kirby's workload that was holding him back, as well as Stan's... ways.

When Kirby was doing the monster books, his art was fuller and much more detailed. He was working alone, and didn't have to cater to the whims of a nepotistic editor who would make inexplicable little changes where an artist might have to redraw an entire page or two. Or three. 

Kirby's artwork, detail and even storytelling would explode once Stan started interfering less and less. By 1965, Stan began doing speaking engagements at colleges and other promotional appearances. Ditko was doing ASM and Dr. Strange almost completely on his own (Stan was ignoring him, making it difficult to impossible to get pages redone) and Kirby was now turning in his pages with border notes, because he... well because of the Nat Freeland story he didn't really want to see Stan - AGAIN making it difficult to impossible to ask for pages to be redone. 

Once that happened, the quality of story went UP and the quality of ART went up. Stan has less time to meddle and the books actually got better and LOOKED better. 

By 1966, Kirby had Thor and the Fantastic Four (with 10-12 page Cap and Shield stories), a manageable workload for him and he could really let loose. 

[Dr. Haydn]

"When Kirby was doing the monster books, his art was fuller and much more detailed. He was working alone, and didn't have to cater to the whims of a nepotistic editor who would make inexplicable little changes where an artist might have to redraw an entire page or two. Or three."

During the monster era, Kirby was doing about 60-80 pages a month, plus most of the covers. I wonder if MR. Richard Ayers gets enough credit for how good these stories looked--he was inking almost all of Kirby's work from mid-1960 onward.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
typo

[Prince Namor]

On 4/26/2023 at 9:12 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

"When Kirby was doing the monster books, his art was fuller and much more detailed. He was working alone, and didn't have to cater to the whims of a nepotistic editor who would make inexplicable little changes where an artist might have to redraw an entire page or two. Or three."

During the monster era, Kirby was doing about 60-80 pages a month, plus most of the covers. I wonder if MR. Richard Ayers gets enough credit for how good these stories looked--he was inking almost all of Kirby's work from mid-1960 onward.

He doesn't. Inkers who are artists themselves rarely get the credit they deserve. I remember talking to Tom Palmer at Baltimore Comic Con a few years ago - no one was at his table. I couldn't believe it. 

Bring up to John Byrne how his best work was inked by Terry Austin and he'll get annoyed...

Yeah, Ayers' inking of this Kirby work deserves more recognition than it gets, but is always going to probably be overshadowed by Joe Sinnott...

[Prince Namor]

On 4/26/2023 at 9:12 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

"When Kirby was doing the monster books, his art was fuller and much more detailed. He was working alone, and didn't have to cater to the whims of a nepotistic editor who would make inexplicable little changes where an artist might have to redraw an entire page or two. Or three."

During the monster era, Kirby was doing about 60-80 pages a month, plus most of the covers. I wonder if MR. Richard Ayers gets enough credit for how good these stories looked--he was inking almost all of Kirby's work from mid-1960 onward.

I wasn't sure about that 60-80 pages a month... most of those books Jack would only do a 7 page story and maybe an additional 6 pager... so I went and put together totals for Feb-Dec 1960 - it's a lot less than that. Jack was still doing some outside work (Classics Illustrated) at the time too... those books didn't go monthly until into 1960 either...

With everything going on in 1963, it's hard to remember that they were this close to shutting down and being sold in late 1960...

FEB 1960

TTA #10 c+12

TOS #10 c+7

KidCo #91  c

TGK #54 c+4

3 covers + 23 pages

 

MAR 1960

LvRo #88 c

MyOR #76 c

JIM #59 c+7

RawKd #17 c+18

GunSm #59 c+7

ST #76 c+7

6 covers + 39 pages

 

APR 1960

TTA #11 c+12

TOS #11 c+7

KidCo #92 c

TGK #55 c+5

4 covers + 24 pages

 

MAY 1960

TTA #12 c+7

KidCo #93 c+5

JIM #60 c+12

RawKd #18 c+18

GunSm #60 c

ST #77  c+7

6 covers + 49 pages

 

JUNE 1960

TTA #13 c+13

TOS #12 c+7

KidCo #94 c

JIM #61 c+7

TGK #56 c

ST #78 c+7

6 covers + 34 pages

 

JULY 1960

TTA #14 c+13

KidCo #95 c+5

JIM #62 c+13

RawKd #19 c+18

GunSm #61 c

ST #79 c+7

6 covers + 56 pages

 

AUG 1960

TTA #15 c+7

TOS #13 c+7

KidCo #96 c+5

JIM #63 c+12

TGK #57 c+5

ST #80 c+7

6 covers + 43 pages

 

SEPT 1960

TTA #16 c+7

TOS #14 c+19

JIM #64 c+7

RawKd #20 c+18

GunSm #62 c+16

ST #81 c+7

6 pages + 74 pages

 

OCT 1960

TTA #17 c+13

TOS #15 c+13

KidCo #97 c

JIM #65 c+13

TGK #58 c+18

ST #82 c+13

6 covers + 70 pages

 

SHUT DOWN in NOV

 

2 covers and 19 pages in December…

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/26/2023 at 5:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

I wasn't sure about that 60-80 pages a month... most of those books Jack would only do a 7 page story and maybe an additional 6 pager... so I went and put together totals for Feb-Dec 1960 - it's a lot less than that. Jack was still doing some outside work (Classics Illustrated) at the time too... those books didn't go monthly until into 1960 either...

With everything going on in 1963, it's hard to remember that they were this close to shutting down and being sold in late 1960...

FEB 1960

TTA #10 c+12

TOS #10 c+7

KidCo #91  c

TGK #54 c+4

3 covers + 23 pages

 

MAR 1960

LvRo #88 c

MyOR #76 c

JIM #59 c+7

RawKd #17 c+18

GunSm #59 c+7

ST #76 c+7

6 covers + 39 pages

 

APR 1960

TTA #11 c+12

TOS #11 c+7

KidCo #92 c

TGK #55 c+5

4 covers + 24 pages

 

MAY 1960

TTA #12 c+7

KidCo #93 c+5

JIM #60 c+12

RawKd #18 c+18

GunSm #60 c

ST #77  c+7

6 covers + 49 pages

 

JUNE 1960

TTA #13 c+13

TOS #12 c+7

KidCo #94 c

JIM #61 c+7

TGK #56 c

ST #78 c+7

6 covers + 34 pages

 

JULY 1960

TTA #14 c+13

KidCo #95 c+5

JIM #62 c+13

RawKd #19 c+18

GunSm #61 c

ST #79 c+7

6 covers + 56 pages

 

AUG 1960

TTA #15 c+7

TOS #13 c+7

KidCo #96 c+5

JIM #63 c+12

TGK #57 c+5

ST #80 c+7

6 covers + 43 pages

 

SEPT 1960

TTA #16 c+7

TOS #14 c+19

JIM #64 c+7

RawKd #20 c+18

GunSm #62 c+16

ST #81 c+7

6 pages + 74 pages

 

OCT 1960

TTA #17 c+13

TOS #15 c+13

KidCo #97 c

JIM #65 c+13

TGK #58 c+18

ST #82 c+13

6 covers + 70 pages

 

SHUT DOWN in NOV

 

2 covers and 19 pages in December…

Yeah. Fewer pages than I would have thought. I suppose Jack's workload (with Ayers finishes) picked up in 1961, with his monster lead stories and westerns--in addition to his occasional romance stories (Colletta inks), and the FF (with Klein, Brodsky, and Sinnott until #6).

Edited April 27, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added Ayers and clarified inkers for romance

[Prince Namor]

On 4/26/2023 at 6:53 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Yeah. Fewer pages than I would have thought. I suppose Jack's workload (with Ayers finishes) picked up in 1961, with his monster lead stories and westerns--in addition to his occasional romance stories (Colletta inks), and the FF (with Klein, Brodsky, and Sinnott until #6).

In November of 1960, they essentially shut down again, and Goodman was going to sell. Some people jumped ship and others obviously started at least getting some of their work elsewhere - Ayers benefited from that, by staying loyal to Marvel throughout all of the ups and downs. Being able to work in any of the genre's helped as well. 

Along the same lines, Kirby's monster books were what had sold, so they utilized him as much as they could for his art and storytelling - he benefitted from it as well. 

I guess it makes sense they would really knock out some pages together going forward!

[Prince Namor]

 

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

 

For September, Marvel would release 13 titles to the newsstand. That's 108 titles for 1963 so far, or 12 a month. 

6 superhero books - 2 Western - 4 comedy/romance

 

Number of titles released to the Newsstand this month by each publisher:

DC - 29 (-1), Charlton - 24 (+1), Harvey - 10 (-13), Gold Key - 15 (-5), Archie - 10 (-3), Marvel - 13 (+1), Dell - 12 (0), ACG - 0 (-4)

 

September 3rd, 1963

Avengers #2

Journey Into Mystery #98

Modeling with Millie #27 

Patsy Walker #111 

Sgt. Fury #4

Tales to Astonish #50

X-Men #2

 

September 10th, 1963

Amazing Spider-man #7

Fantastic Four #21

Patsy & Hedy #91

Rawhide Kid #37

Strange Tales #115

Tales of Suspense #48

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Avengers #2 - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: Co-plotted and then Added dialogue to Kirby's story) Drawn by: Jack Kirby (More like: Co-plotted and Drawn by)  Inked by: Paul Reinman  Lettering: Art Simek

Cover By Jack Kirby with Sol Brodsky inks

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Avengers #2 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Avengers #2 -

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Avengers #2 - Preview AD

[Dr. Haydn]

Page 8, panel 1: the original, uncorrected version (from the Marvel No-Prize book, mid-1980s). If the Hulk really could become Dr. Don Blake...well, "physician, heal thyself"!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Journey Into Mystery #98 - Written By: Stan Lee  Drawn by: Don Heck  Lettering: Art Simek

Cover By Jack Kirby with Sol Brodsky inks

Here is Stan, with no writer to stand behind, and with no Kirby or Ditko... 

It's almost embarrassing to see Thor act like this in the first pages of the story, and... what the heck is Odin wearing? The origin of Cobra... a radioactive cobra??? Ugh. And Cobra sure has a lot of weapons for someone who just became a super powered bad guy... and then by chance, goes to the doctor that Jane Foster now works for... 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS SEPTEMBER 1963

Journey Into Mystery #98 - Written By: Stan Lee  Drawn by: Jack Kirby  Inked by: Don Heck  Lettering: Art Simek

Don Heck's inking here may have been a true tracing job, as it looks like Kirby did pretty pure pencils for this. And obviously wrote it. THIS is what I would expect in a Thor story, even one he's not in!