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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures!
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 4/18/2023 at 1:11 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97 - Stan seems to have forgotten what Dr. Andrews first name is in the same issue...

Either way, it seems Kirby has decided that if they're going to do Thor - if HE is going to do Thor - it's going to be HIS way - and immediately he's ready to end this silly Jane Foster romance. He even ramps it up with what Thor will be with his Tales of Asgard stories. 

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Later retconned to Basil Bruce Andrews, no doubt (kinda like Robert Bruce Banner).

I see more Heck than Kirby in the faces--was Jack providing particularly loose pencils?

 

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Two Gun Kid #66 - DON HECK does the cover of this issue, after Kirby had done the previous 12 dating back 3 years. Jack is doing so much, he's getting worn thin. Stan's happy to have it...

This is the beginning of the period where Jack was doing at lot of layouts (i.e. writing) for other artists. Stan might say, "Let's bring back the Porcupine!" or he might just wait to see what Jack brings in - have him do the layouts (write the story with art) - have another artist finish the artwork - then Stan would put the dialogue in. 

Stan would get full pay as the 'writer', and Kirby and the finishing artist would split the 'art' pay. Kirby wasn't keen on it, pretty quickly. 

 

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Amazing Spider-man #6 - Letters Page

Stan just isn't into doing Dr. Strange (because it's Ditko's idea, as he's already told us) and has no issue with letting it be known:

“We almost hoped not too many readers would notice Dr. Strange so that we could turn out the stories without too much effort. But, the reaction has been far more favorable than we expected, so it looks as though the old master of black magic will be a regular feature, which means another headache for us! If you haven’t seen him yet, treat yourself to a copy of the lat- est Strange Tales—but only after you’ve bought Spiderman of course!” 

That's TWICE he's talked down about the character, and both times are in Marvel's best selling comic (FF #19 and here in ASM #6)

He also gives some double talk BS about signing covers:

“The reason we don’t usually have artists sign the covers, is that they often represent the work of many men. One might do the rough layout—another the penciling—then, we might decide to change a figure or two and still another artist might make the correction—ditto for the inking. However, when one man does the whole thing as Steve did on the covers you mentioned, he usually does affix his signature!”

It's apparent that Amazing Spider-man has already reached the same kind of popularity as Fantastic Four - both are monthly, both feature TWO PAGES of letters and Stan tells us it's the 'success story of 1963' !

 

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Amazing Spider-man #6 - Ditko speaks!

This is actually something that came up later and probably attributed to the split in Lee and Ditko's working relationship. Stan wanted Ditko to cut back on making JJJ so smiley and what did Ditko do? You can see in the issue below. He RAMPED it up hard for the issue!

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Dr. Haydn

Dr. Haydn

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On 4/19/2023 at 5:09 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Amazing Spider-man #6 - Ditko speaks!

YES!

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Steve Ditko had a clear vision of what he wanted to do (Jack Kirby likewise). Stan Lee didn't, so he waited for fan reaction before deciding to get on board.

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 4/19/2023 at 4:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Steve Ditko had a clear vision of what he wanted to do (Jack Kirby likewise). Stan Lee didn't, so he waited for fan reaction before deciding to get on board.

A perfect example of how bad this catering to the squeaky wheels can be... when Stan signed off on Conway and Romita killing off Gwen Stacy - those fans were outspoken and told Stan so at his speaking appearances (he'd claim to them that he knew nothing about it, natch). So Stan demanded to his staff that they 'bring her back' and thus was born the convoluted CLONE STORIES.

That whole sordid episode can probably best describe the point where comics started their decline - based on the Stan Lee principle of trying to appease every nut job that gave his opinion - something neither Kirby nor Ditko chose to cater to - and how it can water down and dilute the artistic quality of something until... it's just the same old regurgitated spoon over and over.

In other words... ALL of Marvel's stories became clone stories. An unnatural copy of what came before. 

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bc

bc

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On 4/19/2023 at 4:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Steve Ditko had a clear vision of what he wanted to do (Jack Kirby likewise). Stan Lee didn't, so he waited for fan reaction before deciding to get on board.

+1

I'm continually surprised to see the thoughtful insight Ditko applied to the medium and how he compares it to other visual communication forms. These excerpts show the depth, planning and passion he utilized creating his characters and story plots.

-bc

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Fantastic Four #20 - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: Co-plotted and then Added dialogue to Kirby's story) Drawn by: Jack Kirby (More like: Co-plotted and Drawn by)  Inked by: Dick Ayers Lettering: Art Simek

Cover By Jack Kirby with inks by George Roussos

Part ONE:

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