Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1963) Butting Heads, Unexpected Success and Not Expected Failures! 3 3

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

X-Men #1 - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: May have co-plotted, added some ideas possibly, but definitely wrote in the dialogue) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Created, as well as wrote and drew the story) Inked By; Paul Reinman Lettering: S. Rosen (My name is SAM!)

Cover by Jack Kirby, inked by Sol Brodsky and Frank Giocoia

It's kinda funny how Stan's story telling, his dialogue, and character creation all seem to skyrocket when Jack Kirby is 'drawing' the book!

Part ONE:

Edited April 15, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

X-Men #1 -

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

X-Men #1 -

Part THREE:

[Dr. Haydn]

I believe the original cover had Jean using her telekinetic power. Now it just looks like she's about to faint. 

[Dr. Haydn]

A slight miscalculation about the amount of dialogue in panel 4.

[Zonker]

On 4/16/2023 at 10:54 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

A slight miscalculation about the amount of dialogue in panel 4.

 

I've speculated before that maybe that was the reason for Jack filling in the speech balloons in some of his original artwork. It is possible he sometimes really did work from scripts from Larry Lieber or Robert Bernstein and wanted to make sure there was enough room for his artwork and the speech balloons to fit together on the page.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/16/2023 at 1:19 PM, Zonker said:

I've speculated before that maybe that was the reason for Jack filling in the speech balloons in some of his original artwork. It is possible he sometimes really did work from scripts from Larry Lieber or Robert Bernstein and wanted to make sure there was enough room for his artwork and the speech balloons to fit together on the page.

Either that, or Jack wrote his own dialogue as he drew. One could read the evidence either way (though we know which solution Occam's Razor would favor).

I think the efficient use of space would be a major advantage of the Marvel Method--the dialoguer would know exactly how much room they had to work with, since the pencil art was completed first. Even so, Stan still underestimated how much space his dialogue would take up in panel 4, and Sam Rosen was left with an impossible task. I believe the original page exists, and Rosen was apologetic in the right margin about having to cover Magneto's head and shoulders to get his word balloon in.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
added Occam's Razor

[Zonker]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:58 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

 

I think the efficient use of space would be a major advantage of the Marvel Method--the dialoguer would know exactly how much room they had to work with, since the pencil art was completed first. 

Do we know how it works in full -script method (in the case where the cartoonist isn't doing it all)?  Does the penciler just develop a feel over time for how much room to leave empty in the panel to accommodate the words in the -script?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/16/2023 at 2:51 PM, Zonker said:

Do we know how it works in full --script method (in the case where the cartoonist isn't doing it all)?  Does the penciler just develop a feel over time for how much room to leave empty in the panel to accommodate the words in the --script?

I would think the writer controls the amount of dialogue and the pacing, so they decide how much space to give for the art. If memory serves, John Romita Sr. once spoke of a run-in he had with writer (and difficult guy, by all accounts) Robert Kanigher because he made some slight changes to the pacing of a romance story. This incident (it was implied) made Romita receptive to the idea of working for Stan Lee again in 1965, even though he had left Atlas on bad terms in the late 50s.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1963

Adventure Comics #312 - Meanwhile over at DC Comics, Lightning Lad comes back from the dead!

Actual Script by: Ebullient Edmond Hamilton! Art by: Jangling John Forte! Lettering by: Madcap Milt Snapinn!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

For August, Marvel would release 12 titles to the newsstand. That's 95 titles for 1963 so far, or 11.875 a month. 

6 superhero books - 2 Western - 4 comedy/romance

 

Number of titles released to the Newsstand this month by each publisher:

DC - 30, Charlton and Harvey - 23, Gold Key - 20, Archie - 13, Marvel - 12, Dell - 12, ACG - 4

 

August 1st, 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97

Kathy #25

Modeling with Millie #26 (Gunsmoke Western ends and Modeling with Millie goes monthly for the summer)

Patsy Walker #110 (Love Romances ends and Patsy Walker goes monthly for the summer)

Tales to Astonish #49

Two Gun Kid #66

 

August 8th, 1963

Fantastic Four #20

Amazing Spider-man #6

Kid Colt Outlaw #113

Millie the Model #117

Strange Tales #114

Tales of Suspense #47

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97 - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: May have co-plotted, added some ideas possibly, but definitely wrote in the dialogue) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Created, as well as wrote and drew the story) Inked By; Don Heck  Lettering: Art Simek

Cover by Jack Kirby, inked by George Roussos

The difference is noticeable... and suddenly Stan isn't just 'Story Plot' while allowing someone else to script - with Kirby doing the heavy lifting and explaining the story to him, Stan can just put the dialogue in...

Edited April 18, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97 - Tales of Asgard - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: May have co-plotted, added some ideas possibly, but definitely wrote in the dialogue) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Created, as well as wrote and drew the story) Inked By: G. Bell  Lettering: Art Simek

STAN LEE: [1998] “...90% of the ‘Tales of Asgard’ stories were Jack’s plots, and they were great! He knew more about Norse mythology than I ever did (or at least he enjoyed making it up!). I was busy enough just putting in the copy after he drew it.”

May 1998: “Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas,” Comic Book Artist #2

[Dr. Haydn]

On 4/17/2023 at 9:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97 - Tales of Asgard - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: May have co-plotted, added some ideas possibly, but definitely wrote in the dialogue) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Created, as well as wrote and drew the story) Inked By: G. Bell  Lettering: Art Simek

STAN LEE: [1998] “...90% of the ‘Tales of Asgard’ stories were Jack’s plots, and they were great! He knew more about Norse mythology than I ever did (or at least he enjoyed making it up!). I was busy enough just putting in the copy after he drew it.”

May 1998: “Stan the Man and Roy the Boy: A Conversation between Stan Lee and Roy Thomas,” Comic Book Artist #2

The top caption in the final panel looks as if it was redone or added (it's not Art Simek's lettering). If anyone out there has the original version (as opposed to this Marvel masterworks copy), I would be interested to hear what the caption said---if it existed.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Journey Into Mystery #97 - Stan seems to have forgotten what Dr. Andrews first name is in the same issue...

Either way, it seems Kirby has decided that if they're going to do Thor - if HE is going to do Thor - it's going to be HIS way - and immediately he's ready to end this silly Jane Foster romance. He even ramps it up with what Thor will be with his Tales of Asgard stories. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Tales to Astonish #49 - Written By: Stan Lee (More like: May have co-plotted, added some ideas possibly, but definitely wrote in the dialogue) Drawn By: Jack Kirby (More like: Created, as well as wrote and drew the story) Inked By; Don Heck  Lettering: S. Rosen (My name is SAM!)

Cover by Don Heck!

Again, suddenly Stan isn't just 'Story Plot' while allowing someone else to script - with Kirby doing the heavy lifting and explaining the story to him, Stan can just put the dialogue in... and it's an 18 page story...

And even with Kirby basically writing the story and putting it together with basic layouts (too much Heck here in the art), Lee can't help but make the Wasp a complete moron. 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Tales to Astonish #49

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Tales to Astonish #49 - Story Plot: Stan Lee  Script and Art: Larry Lieber  Inked By: G. Bell  Lettering: Art Simek

There aren't many of these left...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1963

Tales to Astonish #49 - Stan, of course, years later would claim to have come up with the idea for the Living Eraser, when we have the easy means to look at Kirby's past work and see where the original concept comes from. It isn't the same - but the CONCEPTand GIMMICK of it is - someone who can erase themselves with multiple swipes of the hand - but in reality are transporting themselves to another location through the 4th dimension. 

[Prince Namor]

Kirby's original story is pretty cool:

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY OF 1957!

Black Cat Mystic #59 - Jack Kirby story/art, Joe Simon inks