Top 5 M-SHE-U Failures 4 4

[Mystafo]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:26 AM, jsilverjanet said:

people are foolish to think this is the solution, Marvel/Disney have bigger issues than one person, it's the universe they have built

hard to fix at this point, time to blow it up

I realize it won't fix everything or even very much but it is a step in the right direction, imo.

[jsilverjanet]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:32 AM, Mystafo said:

I realize it won't fix everything or even very much but it is a step in the right direction, imo.

it's hard for me to believe that Alonso was that much of a decision maker and Fiege was asleep at the wheel

Fiege created this mess

[drotto]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:13 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It was a money decision in the sense that her decisions costed the company revenue by prioritizing sentiments rather than technical achievements.

That may be true, but Iger does share many of her views. Thus, firing her is unlikely to fix the problems.  His justification will be, the movie was budgeted for $150 and was supposed to be done on this day.  It ran over by 3 months, the VFX looked like spoon, and cost an additional $50 million. So Alonso became an easy target in the current cost cutting environment.  Iger will be very reluctant to criticize the story, messaging, or MCU direction openly. The overall costing Disney money is more of a systemic issue within the MCU, not one person. The problems start with the story group, the writers, and Feige, who ultimately signs off on all of this.

 

Alonso was effectively second in command, and Feige for now remains untouchable. But we do not know what happened behind the scenes yet.  Was she fired?  Did she leave on her own accord, because she could not deal with the changes now being made and the conflict they created with her person mission? We just do not know. Ultimately,  it is too early to know what effects this will have on the MCU, and if it does indeed signal a course change.

Edited March 21, 2023 by drotto

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:42 AM, drotto said:

That may be true, but Iger does share many of her views. Thus, firing her is unlikely to fix the problems.  His justification will be, the movie was budgeted for $150 and was supposed to be done on this day.  It ran over by 3 months, the VFX looked like spoon, and cost an additional $50 million. So Alonso became an easy target in the current cost cutting environment.  Iger will be very reluctant to criticize the story, messaging, or MCU direction openly. The overall costing Disney money is more of a systemic issue within the MCU, not one person. The problems start with the story group, the writers, and Feige, who ultimately signs off on all of this.

 

Alonso was effectively second in command, and Feige for now remains untouchable. But we do not know what happened behind the scenes yet.  Was she fired?  Did she leave on her own accord, because she could not deal with the changes now being made and the conflict they created with her person mission? We just do not know. Ultimately,  it is too early to know what effects this will have on the MCU, and if it does indeed signal a course change.

I don't know much about Iger, so...

It's hard for me to write down exactly how I'm thinking about this right now. I'm not saying that she isn't the MCU's martyr, but there could be a divide there which strengthened Alonso's resolve after Iger's first departure. This is all just speculation, clearly. It's also business, and supports the old adage about 'going broke'. People mostly just want to be entertained.

[TupennyConan]

I suppose they needed streaming content & had contracts to honor [pay or play contracts?].

An alternative approach to all of this post-Endgame mess could've been to hang fire for a couple years [didn't that work well for Game of Thrones & Stranger Things?] & then explode out of the gate with a screen version of Silver Surfer 4, followed 6-8 months later by HULK vs Wolverine, & followed shortly after that by a WW2 epic with Cap, Namor, & the OG Torch. So much money in that trifecta of obvious tales. The fourth film for the grand slam could've been Galactus on Earth.

There must've been some clever retcon way they could've introduced the FF & X-Men [eg they were present on Earth all through the events of Phases 1 - 3, and participated in them in some way: The FF & Shield off-world or off-dimension in the Negative Zone; the Mutants in hiding - engaged in Secret Wars - due to paranoia] without all the multiverse nonsense. DOOM should've always been present as Latvarian Head of State, also involved in the back ground action.    

They should not have retired Stark & Cap. Recasting Stark [with a younger chap] for prequels or otherwise would've been great.  

Also no more polite Britlander Vision. Give us a more sinister, intimidating Vision, please. 

insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead. Now, Fiege should step forward & apologize to everyone. If breaking the fourth wall is so cool, he should do it for real.  

[Bosco685]

Marvel reeling after exec Victoria Alonso surprisingly ditches role

Quote

Marvel Studios is reeling from the exit of major executive Victoria Alonso. Alonso had been with Marvel’s screen business since its inception, joining the company in 2006 in the lead-up to the 2008 release of its first film, “Iron Man.” The Hollywood Reporter said she left the business this past Friday. While the reasons are unclear, the move has taken the industry by surprise. Alonso was influential within Marvel Studios, and was one of boss Kevin Feige’s key lieutenants. She was most recently promoted to president of physical and post-production, visual effects and animation production in 2021.

 

Alonso’s name will be familiar to many Marvel fans. She was a producer and then from 2012 executive producer on the studios’ dozens of movies and TV shows, often as the second or third credited executive after Feige. And Alonso is expected to remain credited as an executive producer on a raft of upcoming Marvel projects, including “The Marvels,” “Guardians of the Galaxy Volume 3,” “Secret Invasion” and “Ironheart.”

 

Marvel is being plagued by questions of fatigue after 30 movies and eight streaming series in 15 years. The studio has been releasing projects at a breakneck pace, especially in the past two years after the “Avengers: Endgame” era as it moved into a new saga of storytelling. In Marvel’s “Phase Four,” which spanned two years, it released seven movies and eight streaming series, as well as two one-off streaming specials. It’s a marked increase from the studio’s “Phase Three,” which spanned four years, when Marvel released 11 movies.

 

Disney has committed to cutting $5.5 billion in costs, as chief executive Bob Iger sought to shore up its financial position. Iger said during the company’s most recent results that Disney needed to be “better at curating” franchise projects. He added, “We want the quality on the screen, but we have to look at what they cost us.”

 

Soon after, Feige flagged that Marvel will slow down its relentless pace and release fewer movies and streaming series in a year. He framed it as wanting to ensure each title had enough breathing room. “We want Marvel Studios and MCU projects to really stand out and stand above, so people will see that as we get further into Phases Five, Six. The pace at which we’re putting out the Disney+ shows will change so they can each get a chance to shine,” he told EW.

 

[Beige]

On 3/22/2023 at 1:26 AM, TupennyConan said:

 

[TupennyConan]

Without toxic creatives & toxic producers there are no toxic fans. 

Disney+ cancelled. There's too much money on the line for the toxic creatives & toxic producers to continue. Things will change. It'll just take a few years. I hope to reup one day.

Sincerely,

Marvel Zombie Tupenny

[theCapraAegagrus]

Quote

She was most recently promoted to president of physical and post-production, visual effects and animation production in 2021.

That explains everything. She probably couldn't stay away from the online hammering of Marvel's -poor VFX since Phase Bore started. Should've been fired for it, though.

[drotto]

Apparently people in the VFX community are accusing Alonso of promoting a toxic work environment, and blacklisting artists who would not bend to her demands.  

 

https://www.latestly.com/socially/entertainment/hollywood/victoria-alonso-was-reportedly-singularly-responsible-for-the-toxic-work-environment-latest-tweet-by-discussingfilm-4971971.html

Edited March 22, 2023 by drotto

[sfcityduck]

The problem with MCU is not that it now includes minority or diverse characters.  That is only a problem if you are an insecure white guy.  The problem is they went too big too soon with the phases concept and shared universe and they are in a straight jacket. Too many characters in a movie, no character development, so all you are left with to create drama is pointless “deaths” and “events” which are (1) boring, (2) fan service, and (3) by their nature universe reshaping.  It is the same problem the comics have. 
 

The best Marvel movies are and remain the Spider-Man movies and  those are on their fifth retcon. They have focused on the same compelling human story and when they stray too far from it they do a new version.  It produces good movies but how often can you keep that up?  
 

The challenge for the MCU is staying fresh. You cannot do that by relying on a bunch of aging actors. So change is inevitable.  Unfortunately MCU did not decide to change the stale “event” driven formula also.
 

Would have been smarter to freshen up the formula along with actors.

Loki was a smart approach. Sort of the Andor of MCU.  Hawkeye was fun fan service like Mandalorian.  Maybe Marvel would be better off getting out of the MCU and focusing on marque tv and more stand alone cinema that allows for more creativity.

Edited March 22, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Artboy99]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:28 AM, TupennyConan said:

I suppose they needed streaming content & had contracts to honor [pay or play contracts?].

An alternative approach to all of this post-Endgame mess could've been to hang fire for a couple years [didn't that work well for Game of Thrones & Stranger Things?] & then explode out of the gate with a screen version of Silver Surfer 4, followed 6-8 months later by HULK vs Wolverine, & followed shortly after that by a WW2 epic with Cap, Namor, & the OG Torch. So much money in that trifecta of obvious tales. The fourth film for the grand slam could've been Galactus on Earth.

There must've been some clever retcon way they could've introduced the FF & X-Men [eg they were present on Earth all through the events of Phases 1 - 3, and participated in them in some way: The FF & Shield off-world or off-dimension in the Negative Zone; the Mutants in hiding - engaged in Secret Wars - due to paranoia] without all the multiverse nonsense. DOOM should've always been present as Latvarian Head of State, also involved in the back ground action.    

They should not have retired Stark & Cap. Recasting Stark [with a younger chap] for prequels or otherwise would've been great.  

Also no more polite Britlander Vision. Give us a more sinister, intimidating Vision, please. 

insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead. Now, Fiege should step forward & apologize to everyone. If breaking the fourth wall is so cool, he should do it for real.  

I would love the see all of those stories but with a caveat: they must stay true to the characters. I definitely do not want to see SS4 with comedian Thor, or Hulk vs Wolverine with the sweater wearing soft professor Hulk, or the WW2 epic with K'uk'ulkan/nahMOUR which is quite honestly the problem of the current Marvel they are reinventing rather than sticking to character.

[sfcityduck]

On 3/22/2023 at 7:39 AM, Artboy99 said:

I would love the see all of those stories but with a caveat: they must stay true to the characters. I definitely do not want to see SS4 with comedian Thor, or Hulk vs Wolverine with the sweater wearing soft professor Hulk, or the WW2 epic with K'uk'ulkan/nahMOUR which is quite honestly the problem of the current Marvel they are reinventing rather than sticking to character.

Not much “character” to work with when it comes to Thor, Hulk, and Namor. The Thor movies worked best when they focused on the comedy not Asgard.  Loki works well for the same reason.  Hulk never works.  And Subby is the Aquaman of the MU - a fatally flawed concept that should be ignored.

I liked Agent Carter quite a lot.  The Black Widow movie and Hawkeye tv show was an interesting human thread.  WandaVision may have been the most creative idea that Marvel has ever had. I’d rather see stories like those than obvious fan service.

Edited March 22, 2023 by sfcityduck

[@therealsilvermane]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:39 AM, Artboy99 said:

I would love the see all of those stories but with a caveat: they must stay true to the characters. I definitely do not want to see SS4 with comedian Thor, or Hulk vs Wolverine with the sweater wearing soft professor Hulk, or the WW2 epic with K'uk'ulkan/nahMOUR which is quite honestly the problem of the current Marvel they are reinventing rather than sticking to character.

Smart Hulk is 100% true to the character’s comic book story.

[drotto]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:31 AM, sfcityduck said:

The problem with MCU is not that it now includes minority or diverse characters.  That is only a problem if you are an insecure white guy.  The problem is they went too big too soon with the phases concept and shared universe and they are in a straight jacket. Too many characters in a movie, no character development, so all you are left with to create drama is pointless “deaths” and “events” which are (1) boring, (2) fan service, and (3) by their nature universe reshaping.  It is the same problem the comics have. 
 

The best Marvel movies are and remain the Spider-Man movies and  those are on their fifth retcon. They have focused on the same compelling human story and when they stray too far from it they do a new version.  It produces good movies but how often can you keep that up?  
 

The challenge for the MCU is staying fresh. You cannot do that by relying on a bunch of aging actors. So change is inevitable.  Unfortunately MCU did not decide to change the stale “event” driven formula also.
 

Would have been smarter to freshen up the formula along with actors.

Loki was a smart approach. Sort of the Andor of MCU.  Hawkeye was fun fan service like Mandalorian.  Maybe Marvel would be better off getting out of the MCU and focusing on marque tv and more stand alone cinema that allows for creativity.

Comic fans never had problems with diversity. X-Men was one of the top comics for years, and has been very diverse for a long time. The Avengers has been diverse. Disney had all the diversity it needed with longer established characters, rather then leaning into more recent additions that have struggled in the comics to gain a fan base, and are struggling in the MCU in the same way.

 

The big mistake they made, is very similar to the mistakes they made in the comic books, they rushed to many changes in too quickly. This made most of the new characters feel shallow, poorly developed, very cookie cutter, and like they were checking a box rather then being a well thought out character.  Popularity needs to be nurtured, not forced. Yes, sometime you get that instant hit, but this felt forced. So again poor writing.  So instead of giving us a reason to like the characters, we were being told we must like these characters, and scolded if we didn't. 

 

I also somewhat disagree about the idea of being stuck with aging characters.  The MCU should have established earlier that big characters could be recast.  It's not what people want, but it is often key to longevity of franchises, because you have only so many A list characters.  There is also a long history of this working; Superman, Batman, James Bond, Spider-Man, and Dr Who just to name a few. 

 

I think the streaming shows are also showing they can not be the backbone of marquee IP's.  Andor had very low viewership, and Mandalorian season 3 is reportedly struggling with viewership.  Book of Boba Fett and Obi Won did more to damage Star Wars then help.  In the MCU not a single MCU streaming show cracked the Nielson top 10 for the year. They may be fun for the hard core fans, but they are money losers form a business standpoint.  You need blockbusters in the theaters.

[drotto]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:52 AM, @therealsilvermane said:

Smart Hulk is 100% true to the character’s comic book story.

Depends on the era you are looking at.  It is true to the current version, but many fans want the Silver or Bronze age Hulk. The Hulk we were given in the MCU arguably evolved too quickly skipping over many stories fans loved.

 

From an action movie standpoint Hulk smash is far more fun the Hulk Lectures. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by drotto

[theCapraAegagrus]

Professor Hulk is like Kingdom Come Superman; You don't go there until you're near-done with the character. Hulk fans wanted to see Hulk in Endgame.

[sfcityduck]

On 3/22/2023 at 7:53 AM, drotto said:

Comic fans never had problems with diversity. X-Men was one of the top comics for years, and has been very diverse for a long time. The Avengers has been diverse. Disney had all the diversity it needed with longer established characters, rather then leaning into more recent additions that have struggled in the comics to gain a fan base, and are struggling in the MCU in the same way.

 

The big mistake they made, is very similar to the mistakes they made in the comic books, they rushed to many changes in too quickly. This made most of the new characters feel shallow, poorly developed, very cookie cutter, and like they were checking a box rather then being a well thought out character.  Popularity needs to be nurtured, not forced. Yes, sometime you get that instant hit, but this felt forced. So again poor writing.  So instead of giving us a reason to like the characters, we were being told we must like these characters, and scolded if we didn't. 

 

I also somewhat disagree about the idea of being stuck with aging characters.  The MCU should have established earlier that big characters could be recast.  It's not what people want, but it is often key to longevity of franchises, because you have only so many A list characters.  There is also a long history of this working; Superman, Batman, James Bond, Spider-Man, and Dr Who just to name a few. 

 

I think the streaming shows are also showing they can not be the backbone of marquee IP's.  Andor had very low viewership, and Mandalorian season 3 is reportedly struggling with viewership.  Book of Boba Fett and Obi Won did more to damage Star Wars than help.  In the MCU not a single MCU streaming show cracked the Nielson top 10 for the year. They may be fun for the hard core fans, but they are money losers from a business standpoint.  You need blockbusters in the theaters.

I said aging actors not aging characters, and I praised the recasting of Spider-Man.  But ultimately the problem is the MCU event driven structure.

A lot of fans are driven by nostalgia and resist change (I recall outrage on this site about Miles Morales). New X-Men featured three diverse characters in 1975 and two were immediately excused leaving a single black woman. My recollection is fans got a bit upset about iceman later. But that is pretty much irrelevant because I agree the issue is storytelling and the MCU has largely chosen formula and fan service over story precisely because it appears to sell better … in the short term.  Long term I think it is a formula for irrelevance.

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:39 AM, Artboy99 said:

I would love the see all of those stories but with a caveat: they must stay true to the characters. I definitely do not want to see SS4 with comedian Thor, or Hulk vs Wolverine with the sweater wearing soft professor Hulk, or the WW2 epic with K'uk'ulkan/nahMOUR which is quite honestly the problem of the current Marvel they are reinventing rather than sticking to character.

+1

[Gatsby77]

I thought Marvel established recasting fairly early - given that we've seen three actors play Bruce Banner (and two of those within the MCU proper).

We had two Rhodeys in two Iron Man films.

Rumor has it Harrison Ford is taking over as Thunderbolt Ross.

We even saw three different actresses play Kitty Pryde in the first three X-Men films.

The point?

The idea that Iron Man, Cap, Thor or Wolverine can't be recast without fan (or box office) backlash is hogwash.

If audiences can accept three different Spider-Man actors or three different Batman actors (twice!) within 10 years, they can certainly handle re-castings of the primary Avengers group.