June 2023 Heritage Signature Auction #7340 4 4

[cloud cloddie]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:24 AM, Bill C said:

 

The HA a few days ago had some results that seem a bit low, maybe?

Cap 350 page 1 splash (featuring the Skull as Steve showing off his thighs) went for only $900- with Dwyer Cap panel page prices rocketing up, I'm surprised the splash to a key issue like this went lower than panel pages are going.

I bid on this one, but not very hard. Would’ve bid more if it was an actual red skull. 

[Bronty]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:58 AM, KirbyCollector said:

There is no paradox. Frazetta was an accomplished artist, whose skill we can appreciate and acknowledge. He was,  however, not a very original artist -- by his own admission, he swiped everything from comic books to magazines to fine art paintings, and thus falls short of inclusion into the higher category of fine art.

With respect, that's just not true. 

[Bronty]

On 4/21/2023 at 10:36 PM, bernoulli said:

It is not the leg muscles, IMHO. It is the knee, which is weirdly cut in two by a poor choice in the use of light. It also seems disproportionate to the figure. In any case, never got the appeal of Frazetta. 

agree with it being more the angle and proportions than the leg muscles.   It just looks a bit off but as I said the rest does draw you in.

As for the appeal, I think of it like this

1) He was there at the beginning of and helped to define what we all expected fantasy illustration to look like, similar to how kirby helped define our expectations of comic books.

2) He was genuinely extremely talented

3) When/if one starts to doubt #2, go back and judge his prime works against other works from his era (say pre 1980).     These two works are both illustrations from significant paperbacks from the 1960s (and no disrespect to Barbara Remington, but you tell me which one is more appealing to you and which invokes the fantasy genre?   Which one looks dated today and which one still looks fresh?).

Regardless of whether you like his style today given all the work you have seen since he was painting circles around his contemporaries at that time. 

vs

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Bronty

[Bronty]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:44 AM, grapeape said:

 

This is not meant to goad you. It's just fascinating to me. It seems there are two camps. 1) everything Frazetta touches is a masterpiece or 2) 😑 MEH..... he's no (fill in fine artist of choice) in comparison or dismiss him in general as not worthy of standing in a fine art gallery with the well heeled foo foo art society.

 

I've noticed this too, and I like where you're coming from.

He was a great artist IMO and honestly given his impact on the genre I don't know how one realistically argues the other position.    However, like absolutely every artist that ever lived, he had his stinkers, particularly at the end of his career, and perhaps some at the beginning.      His... say... early 70s period he's crushing home runs all over the place.   But there are many many pieces from nineteen eighty-whatever or nineteen ninety-whatever that aren't really all that special and are surpassed by the best works of artists not on his level.   that's how it goes.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Bronty

[J.Sid]

Any piece that sells for what this piece will sell for deserves to be open to extensive scrutiny...

...but I seriously never thought I'd see the day where we had a "Frazetta didn't actually suck" thread, as this one seems to have transformed into.

[Bronty]

On 4/22/2023 at 7:37 PM, J.Sid said:

Any piece that sells for what this piece will sell for deserves to be open to extensive scrutiny...

...but I seriously never thought I'd see the day where we had a "Frazetta didn't actually suck" thread, as this one seems to have transformed into.

I think that happens any time someone gets to that level of regard.      There's always going to be those that weren't exposed to the work in the right manner or what have and don't get the appeal.    For example, search up my posts from 15-20 years ago and I'm talking about how I don't get the love for Charles Schulz.

That's because, having been born in 1975, my exposure to Schulz was of the 20 years of Peppermint Patty and Marcie excruciatingly unfunny material at the end of his career.

It wasn't until the fantagraphics reprints came out and I was able to read the 50s, 60s and 70s works that I said to myself  - this isn't just a great strip, this is THE great strip.    And now I sing Schulz's praises

 

[Grant Turner]

I think for me, it’s simply just I’m not a “sword and sandal fantasy” kind of guy.  Frazetta probably is great, but my eye never lingers on the page long enough to take it in, or to develop an eye for what separates him from his contemporaries 

 

[grapeape]

On 4/22/2023 at 5:07 PM, Grant Turner said:

I think for me, it’s simply just I’m not a “sword and sandal fantasy” kind of guy.  Frazetta probably is great, but my eye never lingers on the page long enough to take it in, or to develop an eye for what separates him from his contemporaries 

 

Fair enough. But give him a chance my friend.

[mtlevy1]

I think his pen and ink work is quite exceptional!

[bernoulli]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, grapeape said:

You: I never got the appeal of Frazetta

You: I enjoy his pieces too

Also, granted there are better paintings/ painters in the fine art world. But are there better fantasy/comic art paintings you'd prefer dollar for dollar? 

I'm just curious which ones you'd like?

This is not meant to goad you. It's just fascinating to me. It seems there are two camps. 1) everything Frazetta touches is a masterpiece or 2) 😑 MEH..... he's no (fill in fine artist of choice) in comparison or dismiss him in general as not worthy of standing in a fine art gallery with the well heeled foo foo art society.

 

Therein lies the paradox. He is a commercial genre artist whose works are being sold for more in relative terms than much better artists because of his focus on an (overwrought, as mentioned by something else, but appealing) theme.  Sure, he is a great fantasy artist. But there are much better things out there for the prices he commands. IMHO, of course. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug....

Edited April 23, 2023 by bernoulli

[Bronty]

On 4/23/2023 at 6:02 AM, bernoulli said:

Therein lies the paradox. He is a commercial genre artist whose works are being sold for more in relative terms than much better artists because of his focus on an (overwrought, as mentioned by something else, but appealing) theme.  Sure, he is a great fantasy artist. But there are much better things out there for the prices he commands. IMHO, of course. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug....

Better things out there for the money?   I guess I agree as I have no interest in buying his work at current prices, although I have no interest in most work at current prices (and that is true for everyone unless one just buys anything one sees).  
 

That being said, you seem to equate quality of art with price.    Don’t kid yourself.   If that’s how you think then you haven’t yet figured out that price and ‘quality’ of art (if one could even measure that) have very little to do with each other.    
 

To put it another way, let’s say I accept your statement that there are better fine artists for less money.    There are surely also far worse fine artists for much more money.   
 

The market does not correlate quality with price all that well.    It looks at marginal supply, and marginal demand, and not a damn thing else.    To put it another way, when it comes to fair market value,  it is far more important that an artist be famous than an artist be ‘good.’

Edited April 23, 2023 by Bronty

[The Voord]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:07 AM, Grant Turner said:

I think for me, it’s simply just I’m not a “sword and sandal fantasy” kind of guy.  Frazetta probably is great, but my eye never lingers on the page long enough to take it in, or to develop an eye for what separates him from his contemporaries 

 

Frazetta wasn't just a 'sword and sandal fantasy' kind of guy . . . he worked in other genres.:

 

[Bronty]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:27 AM, The Voord said:

Frazetta wasn't just a 'sword and sandal fantasy' kind of guy . . . he worked in other genres.:

 

I think 'sword and sandal' is more along the lines of material set in ancient rome/greece/egypt...   Ben-Hur, Cleopatra, Spartacus, stuff like that.

I believe 'sword and sorcery' is the term here.

And yes Frazetta may be more than 'sword and sorcery' but in fairness, that's really 90% of what he's known for.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Bronty

[tth2]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:35 AM, Bronty said:

On 4/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, grapeape said:

 

This is not meant to goad you. It's just fascinating to me. It seems there are two camps. 1) everything Frazetta touches is a masterpiece or 2) 😑 MEH..... he's no (fill in fine artist of choice) in comparison or dismiss him in general as not worthy of standing in a fine art gallery with the well heeled foo foo art society.

 

Expand  

I've noticed this too, and I like where you're coming from.

He was a great artist IMO and honestly given his impact on the genre I don't know how one realistically argues the other position.    However, like absolutely every artist that ever lived, he had his stinkers, particularly at the end of his career, and perhaps some at the beginning.      His... say... early 70s period he's crushing home runs all over the place.   But there are many many pieces from nineteen eighty-whatever or nineteen ninety-whatever that aren't really all that special and are surpassed by the best works of artists not on his level.   that's how it goes.

 Even Frazetta fans don't think everything he did was a masterpiece, which is why they tend to assign tiers to his various pieces.  Everything he did is definitely not considered 1st tier.  Like almost every artist, he had his rise, his peak, and his decline. 

[tth2]

On 4/23/2023 at 7:40 AM, Bronty said:

That's because, having been born in 1975, my exposure to Schulz was of the 20 years of Peppermint Patty and Marcie excruciatingly unfunny material at the end of his career.

[steve9999]

On 4/23/2023 at 6:02 AM, bernoulli said:

Therein lies the paradox. He is a commercial genre artist whose works are being sold for more in relative terms than much better artists because of his focus on an (overwrought, as mentioned by something else, but appealing) theme.  Sure, he is a great fantasy artist. But there are much better things out there for the prices he commands. IMHO, of course. Nostalgia is one hell of a drug....

"But there are much 'better things" out there for the prices he commands." 

Respectfully, I don't even know where to start. I am sure as you site examples of those "better things," there will be many people who will disagree with your selections.

I'm reminded of the ancient Greek proverb, "Opinions are like assh*les,"....everybody has one."

[Michael Browning]

On 4/22/2023 at 6:58 AM, KirbyCollector said:

There is no paradox. Frazetta was an accomplished artist, whose skill we can appreciate and acknowledge. He was,  however, not a very original artist -- by his own admission, he swiped everything from comic books to magazines to fine art paintings, and thus falls short of inclusion into the higher category of fine art.

I have read this a few times and, no matter how hard I’ve tried, I just can’t understand the dislike you have for Frazetta’s art. It seems your dislike is so strong that you do your best to convince others that his art is hack work and all swipes. It’s just not so. In my opinion, and, after having read it numerous times before I decided what to say, it just drips with the “I don’t own a Frazetta so I don’t like Frazetta” sentiment.

I understand he’s not everyone’s favorite artist, but I’m sure more people like his art than don’t - and those who don’t usually are in the “I don’t own a Frazetta” camp. I mean no disrespect to you and it’s your opinion, but you attempt to make your case so strongly that it seems like you’re bitter against his art for a reason.

[wurstisart]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:20 PM, MrBedrock said:

well here is my Sienkiewicz version of this.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1408160

[Bronty]

On 4/23/2023 at 11:54 AM, wurstisart said:

well here is my Sienkiewicz version of this.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1408160

Ahahaha that’s great! 

[cstojano]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:42 PM, mtlevy1 said:

I think his pen and ink work is quite exceptional!

This is where I am at. The paintings are great but I think the real talent is seen in some of the inked pieces personally. 

Th real tragedy is the high res HA image of this painting does nothing to solve the debate about what the "ball" is here.