PGM Iron Man 55 - Worth an appeal? 2 2

[Lninefingers]

I wasn't aware until reading the Conan 11 thread that there's an appeal process and that appeals were even possible. (Thanks @scburdet, TIL) I recently graded this one and it got a

Spoiler

6.0

Grader's note said cover staining, which after inspection is probably on the "E" in the last picture. Everything is nice and tight, no missing pages or anything like that. It has a little bit of spine roll, but no creases anywhere. Pages are OW to W. 

What would you grade this at? Should I appeal?

 

[JollyComics]

What did the grader note say?

[Lninefingers]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:26 PM, JollyComics said:

What did the grader note say?

Grader Notes

stain right bottom of front cover
light creasing to cover

 

The "light creasing" has to be the spine roll. There's no creasing.

The stain has to be the dot on the "E". Neither I nor the LCS owner who pressed/submitted on my behalf can find anything else. 

I am, of course, no expert on grading and I am biased because I've had this book in my PC for over 30 years and I love it, but I just don't see how anyone looks at this book and says "Yeah, that's a [grade it got]"

Appreciate you looking.

[ThothAmon]

Is there some discoloration along the top of the spine in the white area?

[Lninefingers]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:45 PM, ThothAmon said:

Is there some discoloration along the top of the spine in the white area?

Not much, but yes there is something. I also found the raw photos the presser took befor sending it off if that helps. 

[JollyComics]

Probably undergraded while Conan #11 is overgraded.  Your copy looks nicer than Conan #11.

[ThothAmon]

Sorry to say but that stain on the bottom corner of the back cover is significant. CGC hammers stains. Not really familiar with the appeal process but this probably isn’t a candidate. 

[Lninefingers]

On 4/15/2023 at 5:23 PM, ThothAmon said:

Sorry to say but that stain on the bottom corner of the back cover is significant. CGC hammers stains. Not really familiar with the appeal process but this probably isn’t a candidate. 

Fair. If them’s the rules, them’s the rules. 
Feels harsh though to take a 3(?) point deduction for something that you can barely see on an otherwise VF+ book. 

[scburdet]

On 4/15/2023 at 7:23 PM, ThothAmon said:

CGC hammers stains

☝️ This. I don't want to overstate what the appeals process is or isn't. Like I said, I work with an certified/authorized CGC dealer, which might be handled a bit differently since they're submitting a lot of books all the time. That said, CGC is absolutely killing stains of all kinds. I have a Marvel Premiere 28 that I expected 8 or higher. Really thought it was at least a 9. It's a 6.5 and the most obvious reason I can see for the low grade is the mention of a light stain. I really had to look hard for it, but I found it. We can disagree with CGC's standards, but they are what they are. My MP28 has a lot more eye appeal than a lot of comics I've seen with bigger numbers in that top corner, but I don't see wiggle room on stains. One of my first learning experiences was with an Iron Fist 14. Another great looking book, but with some light water stains on the back, another tiny hidden stain on the front. 5.5. I'm trying to be very careful with stained books now, particularly if they aren't big keys like this Iron Man. It looks great. As other people will tell you, buy the book, not the grade. I'd take your book in a heartbeat. The only thing that burns is if you've paid a high grade book price that ends up getting hammered for a stain. That, is not fun.

[Nschenks]

Yeah I'd have probably gone 7.0 for this one because of the back cover stain and what looks (to me at least) like light foxing on the top left and top edge of the FC. Two stains plus foxing could do it. 6.0 seems a little harsh, but yeah what scburdet said--CGC crushing books with stains, from what I've seen and heard second-hand. No clue about how the appeals process works, but I'd imagine this is probably not a candidate.

[zzutak]

Hey @CGC Mike, what exactly is this "appeals process" that's suddenly being mentioned in multiple threads? 

On 4/15/2023 at 2:05 PM, Lninefingers said:

I wasn't aware until reading the Conan 11 thread that there's an appeal process and that appeals were even possible.

On 4/15/2023 at 11:12 AM, scburdet said:

He reserves the appeal for significant differences so as not to annoy CGC, so we won't quibble about an 8.5 vs. a 9.0 for example. Waiting to see if his recent appeals will give us something closer to expectations.

[JollyComics]

On 4/16/2023 at 4:55 PM, zzutak said:

Hey @CGC Mike, what exactly is this "appeals process" that's suddenly being mentioned in multiple threads? 

Let's appeals about this beast on your American River. 

.

Edited April 16, 2023 by JollyComics

[scburdet]

On 4/16/2023 at 6:55 PM, zzutak said:

"appeals process"

I think "appeals process" was perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. It's safe to say if someone has a book that looks NM & it came back labeled a 4.0, you'd probably think there was a clerical error, mix-up or something else along the way. If you did this every time a predicted NM came back in the 8s, I'm pretty sure customer service would be annoyed. The idea here would be to appeal (as in to call customer service) about apparent obvious errors. In the context of the two threads, IMO, there was a clearly a problem somewhere b/c I've never seen a 9.0 with that volume of defects that Conan book has.. How many people would actually complain to customer service their 6.0 came back a 9.0? Not many, I'd guess. As I stated above, this Iron Man book looks to have been graded consistently with CGC standards IMO, whether you like those standards or not. I just had a couple books that my facilitator was suspicious about an error of some kind when they were returned among IDK how many dozens were in a shipment. In a separate instance, we got back a different comic than we sent (sent a MJs, a regular newsstand returned). We *think* that my book came back in a different shipment with a wrong label, so the two went back to sort it out. I'm currently hoping that is the case b/c otherwise my book is gone (and would be the 2nd one lost in a year). I don't know the outcome of either situation other than I know the MJs mix-up is back in their hands after customer service was contacted b/c I had complete photographic documentation of what was sent. I don't think I mentioned any process other than the one board member's books other than the Conan, some of those books look like they got dinged to the low end of the predicted range (maybe 1 or two a grade or 2 lower for previously unidentified defects), which is the risk one takes with 3rd party grading as we all know. Hope that clears up my sloppy description.

I made a slight clarifying edit to the comment on the Conan post in case someone else stumbles upon it, which was the genesis of this post and the questions.

Edited April 16, 2023 by scburdet

[JollyComics]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:45 PM, scburdet said:

I think "appeals process" was perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. It's safe to say if someone has a book that looks NM & it came back labeled a 4.0, you'd probably think there was a clerical error, mix-up or something else along the way. If you did this every time a predicted NM came back in the 8s, I'm pretty sure customer service would be annoyed. The idea here would be to appeal (as in to call customer service) about apparent obvious errors. In the context of the two threads, IMO, there was a clearly a problem somewhere b/c I've never seen a 9.0 with that volume of defects that Conan book has.. How many people would actually complain to customer service their 6.0 came back a 9.0? Not many, I'd guess. As I stated above, this Iron Man book looks to have been graded consistent with CGC standards IMO, whether you like those standards or not. I just had a couple books that my facilitator was suspicious about an error of some kind when they were returned among IDK how many dozens were in a shipment. In a separate instance, we got back a different comic than we sent (sent a MJs, a regular newsstand returned). We *think* that my book came back in a different shipment with a wrong label, so the two went back to sort it out. I'm currently hoping that is the case b/c otherwise my book is gone (and would be the 2nd one lost in a year). I don't know the outcome of either situation other than I know the MJs mix-up is back in their hands after customer service was contacted b/c I had complete photographic documentation of what was sent. I don't think I mentioned calling customer service about the one board member's books other than the Conan, some of those books look like they got dinged to the low end of the predicted range, which is the risk one takes with 3rd party grading as we all know. Hope that clears up my sloppy description.

My best interpret "appeals process" is to challenge/prove his on his IM 55 copy is undergraded in a comparison to the recent grade on Conan 11 copy is which indeed overgraded.

[scburdet]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:53 PM, JollyComics said:

challenge/prove

I absolutely agree that if one takes these two books side-by-side there's not really a plausible explanation for a difference of 5 grades, which points to an error or a need to revise standards. My personal opinion is that the penalty for staining is too severe (with light minor ones anyway), but now that I know what they are, there's no reason to submit books with stains until/if that changes.

[JollyComics]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, scburdet said:

I absolutely agree that if one takes these two books side-by-side there's not really a plausible explanation for a difference of 5 grades, which points to an error or a need to revise standards. My personal opinion is that the penalty for staining is too severe (with light minor ones anyway), but now that I know what they are, there's no reason to submit books with stains until/if that changes.

I agreed few of you about the staining on IM 55 is not worthy risk for re-grade.   I just looked for the right interpretation upon what he meant.

[Lninefingers]

On 4/16/2023 at 5:59 PM, scburdet said:

I absolutely agree that if one takes these two books side-by-side there's not really a plausible explanation for a difference of 5 grades, which points to an error or a need to revise standards. My personal opinion is that the penalty for staining is too severe (with light minor ones anyway), but now that I know what they are, there's no reason to submit books with stains until/if that changes.

I think this is a perfect sum up. 
 

The CGC standard feels somewhat inappropriate if you’re to consider how these books would likely be received raw “in the wild”, but it’s still the [known] standard. Submit at your peril. 
 

Thanks for all the thoughts/insights everyone. 

[grendelbo]

Grade looks fair to me.