The Day After. The Brutal Betrayal of the fast flip. 3 3

[grapeape]

[Carl Elvis]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:56 PM, batman_fan said:

What they say "that is my one true grail, I doubt I can pay you FMV for it but if you could see any way to help me acquire it I would be forever in your debt."

What they really mean "I have a sucker lined up to buy it but I would like to make more off it."

 

I accidentally won an early Image #1 splash for $400 (seller sold it as a page from issue #2), my inbox was flooded with those types of messages. 

I’m sure some of them were genuine, but others who had initially offered their absolute max kept coming back with an extra thousand, so you quickly start to realize they’re just looking for a deal.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Carl Elvis

[babsrocks31]

I'm going to offer up yet another perspective.

Mine is from someone who has some expendable income, but not a lot (I work in a field that always has consistent work, but rarely good paying work).

I love the hobby, but I operate within some grounding budgets. 50% of the hobby or more is simply off limits to me.

I am willing to ask politely for a reasonable discount, and to hope my very real passion for a piece may give me an edge over someone just throwing money around.

  I would never fake said passion for a piece just to get a great deal, or make a "flip." I will also always respect a "no", or a "I don't feel that is fair value, sorry". No problem. I'll circle back later if I can. 

I'd say I operate with a genuine, no harm in asking approach. And I only ever play these cards rarely, when it really does matter to me. I'd say on 10% of my purchases or less.

As for my opinion. If someone says nothing and buys a piece just to flip it, I think that's fair. Once the art becomes theirs they can do with it as they please. But if they are giving a sob story, or exaggerating (or even fabricating) their passion about a piece just to flip it, that is dishonest pretense and should be frowned upon.  I'd say it is even toxic to the hobby as a whole.

Edited June 15, 2023 by babsrocks31

[Michael (OML)1]

Two stories - 

1) early in my collecting, I win a Gil Kane Warlock page - super happy.  Another collector tells me it is special page blah/blah so I sell it to him for what I just paid.  I feel good.  Two weeks later, he has it for sale for substantially more.  I never dealt with him again.

2) Another fellow insists I add an interior page by artist X to get a splash I want by that artist.  I love my interior page but the splash is so special.  He tells me he wants to keep an example of this artist in his collection.  I do the deal.  He flips it.  I’m so bummed as I would have paid much more to have kept the page in the first place or to buy it back.  Alas.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Michael (OML)1

[Rick2you2]

On 6/15/2023 at 7:52 PM, Michael (OML)1 said:

Two stories - 

1) early in my collecting, I win a Gil Kane Warlock page - super happy.  Another collector tells he it is special page blah/blah so I sell it to him for what I just paid.  I feel good.  Two weeks later, he has it for sale for substantially more.  I never dealt with him again.

2) Another fellow insists I add an interior page by artist X to get a splash I want by that artist.  I love my interior page but the splash is so special.  He tells me he wants to keep an example of this artist in his collection.  I do the deal.  He flips it.  I’m so bummed as I would have paid much more to have kept the page in the first place or to buy it back.  Alas.

Can I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge?

[grapeape]

On 6/15/2023 at 5:42 PM, Rick2you2 said:

Can I sell you the Brooklyn Bridge?

Rick I love ya brother. But I think that's too harsh.

[Rick2you2]

On 6/16/2023 at 12:43 AM, grapeape said:

Rick I love ya brother. But I think that's too harsh.

I see a lot of cr*p in my line of work, including smooth talk, which results in actionable fraud. From my view, no, not at all (well, maybe a little).

I once wrote a version of this before, and I will expand it here. If someone makes a plea to you, demand that he sign an agreement (1 page should easily be enough), stating that he has not and will not sell or trade the piece for at least “x” years. If he does so, he is liable to pay you damages equal to whatever he recovered (including trade), minus what he paid you, together with your legal costs and attorneys fees, and he consents to jurisdiction where you live. Get it signed and demand notarization, of an actual hard copy, including his address and phone number (which you should check). Only then, consider sending it. If he is serious, he should sign it. If not, be suspicious. Even if you never go to court, that should scare the bs’ers enough to back off.

And yes, I would sign something like that if it something I wanted. 

[The Voord]

On 6/15/2023 at 1:27 AM, babsrocks31 said:

I would never fake said passion for a piece just to get a great deal, or make a "flip." 

I'd say I operate with a genuine, no harm in asking approach. And I only ever play these cards rarely, when it really does matter to me. I'd say on 10% of my purchases or less.

 

I've had a few sob story approaches over the years . . . problem is, it can be difficult separating the sincere from the phony.  Just because someone says they're genuine doesn't make it so!

[grapeape]

It could be that todays collector is more wary of letting a piece of art go only to have it flipped. Correction. I'm positive more collectors worry about that today. It's because of how ridiculously high values went up on art the last ten years and especially the last 2-3.
at the time I sold my Byrne for a sob story, I didn't sell it for a price that I regretted . It was more a gentleman's agreement and a breech of some kind.  There was an "understanding" that I was being handsomely paid, never the less an understanding that I was letting my art go to someone who would "cherish" it. They didn't. I don't care what they made after they got it from me. If I did, I would've sold it to the highest bidder. It was the fact that they deceived me on behalf of someone else. They deceived me, to benefit themselves and someone else. They deceived me by expressing a deep love for my piece. They violated an honor code, be it written or implied.

I come from a time where I would sell at a fair price for art, but left a bit of the bone with meat, just in case they had to sell in an emergency.

I've always tried to buy, leaving some meat on the bone for myself if I faced an emergency. It's how you build your portfolio and don't have tons of art you'd like to let go stagnate (see some dealers) because you put soul sucking prices in them. That's like saying look don't touch. Or look don't buy.

My point is, it's easy to mock some of us who made a "mistake" by getting duped. But I think that's a narrow understanding of what this thread is all about. Without honor, what the hell do you have?

Don't get me wrong. I welcome comments that warn us to be careful of falling for foolishness. Please just remember to encourage others with good advice and empathy. Everyone of us I suspect has at least one story involving art where disappointment took place. 

Thanks to all who've contributed.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by grapeape

[grapeape]

Disappointments. On that subject the following. In LA a few years ago, I met a fellow, we'll call him Dwight. Dwight had 2 pages of amazing Spider-Man art by Sal Buscema. I made Dwight an offer for the two pages that he paid $20 a piece for back in the eighties.

Dwight was blown away by my offer, but then became Leary. Maybe he needed to do his due diligence. Months dragged on, I finally called him and said, how about giving me a chance.

We negotiated. We arrived at a price that was double my initial offer. These were for my personal collection. He came up with the price. He asked me to go to my bank and get cash. I would drive to LA. He would meet me in an agreed upon safe place.

We had an agreement. Over the phone. After dragging me for 8 months, I got the cash, was ready to drive up, when Dwight went back on the agreement. He called me.

"I think I'll take them to auction just to be sure."

He did. They sold. He made $80 more for his trouble.

Why didn't I just buy them at auction?

I will deal with people I don't particularly care for if they have art I desire.

I won't ever reward someone for breaking a gentleman's agreement. I wouldn't bid because he broke his word. Honor, means something.

I have let collectors know when something they have is meaningful to me too. Even when I'm hoping to buy it. I have no desire to embarrass them by flipping it within a month or so when I just told them it would mean a lot if they'd let the art come my way and "fulfill a lifelong goal."

 

[babsrocks31]

On 6/16/2023 at 9:53 AM, The Voord said:

I've had a few sob story approaches over the years . . . problem is, it can be difficult separating the sincere from the phony.  Just because someone says they're genuine doesn't make it so!

That is indeed the problem. And totally understandable. I try to be as respectful as possible, and honest that I know I'm asking for a bit of deal and stating clearly that I understand if I'm not given one. 

[Rick2you2]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:10 PM, grapeape said:

It could be that todays collector is more wary of letting a piece of art go only to have it flipped. Correction. I'm positive more collectors worry about that today. It's because of how ridiculously high values went up on art the last ten years and especially the last 2-3.
at the time I sold my Byrne for a sob story, I didn't sell it for a price that I regretted . It was more a gentleman's agreement and a breech of some kind.  There was an "understanding" that I was being handsomely paid, never the less an understanding that I was letting my art go to someone who would "cherish" it. They didn't. I don't care what they made after they got it from me. If I did, I would've sold it to the highest bidder. It was the fact that they deceived me on behalf of someone else. They deceived me, to benefit themselves and someone else. They deceived me by expressing a deep love for my piece. They violated an honor code, be it written or implied.

I come from a time where I would sell at a fair price for art, but left a bit of the bone with meat, just in case they had to sell in an emergency.

I've always tried to buy, leaving some meat on the bone for myself if I faced an emergency. It's how you build your portfolio and don't have tons of art you'd like to let go stagnate (see some dealers) because you put soul sucking prices in them. That's like saying look don't touch. Or look don't buy.

My point is, it's easy to mock some of us who made a "mistake" by getting duped. But I think that's a narrow understanding of what this thread is all about. Without honor, what the hell do you have?

Don't get me wrong. I welcome comments that warn us to be careful of falling for foolishness. Please just remember to encourage others with good advice and empathy. Everyone of us I suspect has at least one story involving art where disappointment took place. 

Thanks to all who've contributed.

 

When you asked “Without honor, what the hell do you have”, the answer is stuff. This is a world where some people aspire to a fancy car to show the world “they made it” even if they can’t really afford it, let alone need it. You can’t display honor like a piece of art; heck, you can’t even eat or drink it. So some people don’t care. That is why you shouldn’t get bent out of shape by people who have no honor. It’s part of the populace, at least to some degree. They want their stuff. The mistake you made was being too much of an optimist about human nature. At least you said you got a handsome return payment. In that case, the “do not flip” part you wrote about was gravy. Objectively, you made out okay. 

There is a seldom used expression: trust everyone but cut the cards. Next time some one swears on the lives of their children they will not sell, get it in writing, duly notarized, of course. And get ready to send a sympathy card. 

[tth2]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:53 AM, The Voord said:

I've had a few sob story approaches over the years . . . problem is, it can be difficult separating the sincere from the phony.  Just because someone says they're genuine doesn't make it so!

I think the moral of the story from this thread is that it doesn't matter whether the sob story is genuine or not.  No one should sell on the basis of a sob story (true or not). 

Either you want to sell at a certain price or you don't.  If someone tries to talk you down to a lower price by using a sob story, then tell them "Sorry about that, but the price is the price".

[The Voord]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:17 AM, tth2 said:

I think the moral of the story from this thread is that it doesn't matter whether the sob story is genuine or not.  No one should sell on the basis of a sob story (true or not). 

Either you want to sell at a certain price or you don't.  If someone tries to talk you down to a lower price by using a sob story, then tell them "Sorry about that, but the price is the price".

Absolutely!

We (usually) collect art that has some kind of personal connection or meaning to us . . . the reason why the art is in our collections in the first place!  Who's to say that sob-story-guy's needs are greater than yours?  I will sometimes sell art in response to an enquiry . . . but only if it's something that falls below 'keeper' status . . . and only if the price is tempting enough.  I never sell art at a loss, so won't entertain the idea of discounts based on a sob story that will put me out of pocket on original expenditure, coupled with a rise in inflation (and current FMV).  Sob stories I take with a pinch of salt (in most cases, you simply don't know if the other guy is being genuine).

In a similar sort of vein, a long time ago I was having a sell-off of artwork on CAF to help fund paying off my mortgage.  I had one deep-pocketed collector enquire after one piece that had some kind of 'religious connection' to him . . . and would I please sell to him at a discount because of this connection?  This was on the first day of my sales, and an early enquiry, so I just said, "No, that's the amount I want, and it's far too early to see if there's any wiggle-room on price."  Not long afterwards, another collector came along offering full asking price and I made the sale.  After I'd marked-up the art as 'Sold', deep-pocketed religious-connection guy came back to me saying something like, "I thought I had first dibs on this art and we were still in discussions . . . why have you sold this to someone else???"  I just said, "Well, I told you my asking price was firm, you didn't want to meet it, so what else was there to discuss?"  

Another guy once told me that a cover I owned was his all-time-favorite comic-book cover . . . and if I ever decided to sell would I give him first refusal?  Some years passed, and I decided the time was right for me to consider releasing the art.  I contacted the other collector advising this and invited him to make me an offer.  The e-mail exchange went something like this:

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "I'm not sure what to offer . . . what did you pay for the cover?"

ME;  "Well, I got this cheap at, I think, $2,500."

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "I could probably stretch to $2,000?"

ME:  "My original expenditure of $2,500 was about ten years ago . . . prices on these things have now shot up in value".

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "So you won't sell to me at my offer, even though you know it's my favorite cover???".

ME:  "No, I'd be out of pocket and I don't sell art at a loss".

. . . and that killed exploratory discussions stone cold dead!  

Then there was a Keif Fromm story (I've got a few of those!).  He expressed interest in wanting to buy a 1966 Steve Ditko cover  I possessed at the time.  I replied saying, "I'm not actually looking to sell this art but will listen to any tempting offer you may want to make?"  Keif got back to me saying something like, "You know this cover's not really worth that much, don't you?" . . . no doubt to pave the way for a low-ball offer . . . at which point I stopped responding to him.  

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by The Voord

[Rick2you2]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:21 AM, The Voord said:

Absolutely!

We (usually) collect art that has some kind of personal connection or meaning to us . . . the reason why the art is in our collections in the first place!  Who's to say that sob-story-guy's needs are greater than yours?  I will sometimes sell art in response to an enquiry . . . but only if it's something that falls below 'keeper' status . . . and only if the price is tempting enough.  I never sell art at a loss, so won't entertain the idea of discounts based on a sob story that will put me out of pocket on original expenditure, coupled with a rise in inflation (and current FMV).  Sob stories I take with a pinch of salt (in most cases, you simply don't know if the other guy is being genuine).

In a similar sort of vein, a long time ago I was having a sell-off of artwork on CAF to help fund paying off my mortgage.  I had one deep-pocketed collector enquire after one piece that had some kind of 'religious connection' to him . . . and would I please sell to him at a discount because of this connection?  This was on the first day of my sales, and an early enquiry, so I just said, "No, that's the amount I want, and it's far too early to see if there's any wiggle-room on price."  Not long afterwards, another collector came along offering full asking price and I made the sale.  After I'd marked-up the art as 'Sold', deep-pocketed religious-connection guy came back to me saying something like, "I thought I had first dibs on this art and we were still in discussions . . . why have you sold this to someone else???"  I just said, "Well, I told you my asking price was firm, you didn't want to meet it, so what else was there to discuss?"  

Another guy once told me that a cover I owned was his all-time-favorite comic-book cover . . . and if I ever decided to sell would I give him first refusal?  Some years passed, and I decided the time was right for me to consider releasing the art.  I contacted the other collector advising this and invited him to make me an offer.  The e-mail exchange went something like this:

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "I'm not sure what to offer . . . what did you pay for the cover?"

ME;  "Well, I got this cheap at, I think, $2,500."

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "I could probably stretch to $2,000?"

ME:  "My original expenditure of $2,500 was about ten years ago . . . prices on these things have now shot up in value".

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "So you won't sell to me at my offer, even though you know it's my favorite cover???".

ME:  "No, I'd be out of pocket and I don't sell art at a loss".

. . . and that killed exploratory discussions stone cold dead!  

Then there was a Keif Fromm story (I've got a few of those!).  He expressed interest in wanting to buy a 1966 Steve Ditko cover  I possessed at the time.  I replied saying, "I'm not actually looking to sell this art but will listen to any tempting offer you may want to make?"  Keif got back to me saying something like, "You know this cover's not really worth that much, don't you?" . . . no doubt to pave the way for a low-ball offer . . . at which point I stopped responding to him.  

 

How would you have responded if he said something like: “l have no idea what it’s worth because I don’t have any comp’s. What do you think is fair, and I will see if I can afford it.” That’s a problem I regularly have. I don’t want to insult someone with too low an offer, but I also don’t want to discover later I was taken for a ride.

[The Voord]

On 6/17/2023 at 12:37 PM, Rick2you2 said:

How would you have responded if he said something like: “l have no idea what it’s worth because I don’t have any comp’s. What do you think is fair, and I will see if I can afford it.” That’s a problem I regularly have. I don’t want to insult someone with too low an offer, but I also don’t want to discover later I was taken for a ride.

Depends on the situation.  If I'm looking to sell something, I'll affix a price.  If another collector is approaching me wanting to buy something I'm not actually looking to sell, then I won't have a price in mind.  That's up to him to do the leg-work, not me.  By saying, "Make me a tempting offer" that's as fair as I'll want to be.  In the case of Keif Fromm, basically, any art he owns is worth a ton . . . and your stuff is pretty worthless.  That's how he works.

[Rick2you2]

On 6/17/2023 at 8:09 AM, The Voord said:

Depends on the situation.  If I'm looking to sell something, I'll affix a price.  If another collector is approaching me wanting to buy something I'm not actually looking to sell, then I won't have a price in mind.  That's up to him to do the leg-work, not me.  By saying, "Make me a tempting offer" that's as fair as I'll want to be.  In the case of Keif Fromm, basically, any art he owns is worth a ton . . . and your stuff is pretty worthless.  That's how he works.

My thinking: offering the closest things I can find to comp’s, saying what I see as their strengths/weaknesses, and then picking a number. If it is a “grail”, price ought not be a major factor so long as the actual price isn’t nutty or unaffordable. Honest sharing of information seems to make sense. Your thoughts?
 

[The Voord]

On 6/17/2023 at 1:19 PM, Rick2you2 said:

My thinking: offering the closest things I can find to comp’s, saying what I see as their strengths/weaknesses, and then picking a number. If it is a “grail”, price ought not be a major factor so long as the actual price isn’t nutty or unaffordable. Honest sharing of information seems to make sense. Your thoughts?
 

My thoughts?  I'll always listen . . . as long as the other guy is putting in the effort, realistically, to make any potential sale worth my while.  Isn't that fair enough?  FMV might be a starting point if comps are available (most things are).  As I say, why should I be doing all the running around pricing-up something I'm not looking to sell?  The onus is on the other guy.  He wants to buy . . . I was not looking to sell.

Basically a 'Godfather' scenario:

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by The Voord

[gumbydarnit]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:20 AM, Rick2you2 said:

I see a lot of cr*p in my line of work, including smooth talk, which results in actionable fraud. From my view, no, not at all (well, maybe a little).

I once wrote a version of this before, and I will expand it here. If someone makes a plea to you, demand that he sign an agreement (1 page should easily be enough), stating that he has not and will not sell or trade the piece for at least “x” years. If he does so, he is liable to pay you damages equal to whatever he recovered (including trade), minus what he paid you, together with your legal costs and attorneys fees, and he consents to jurisdiction where you live. Get it signed and demand notarization, of an actual hard copy, including his address and phone number (which you should check). Only then, consider sending it. If he is serious, he should sign it. If not, be suspicious. Even if you never go to court, that should scare the bs’ers enough to back off.

And yes, I would sign something like that if it something I wanted. 

I would sign that, in a heartbeat, make it 10-15 years no problem! I’m not trying to build a financial empire I just want more cool art from my favorite artists.

Edited June 17, 2023 by gumbydarnit

[tth2]

On 6/17/2023 at 7:21 PM, The Voord said:

OTHER COLLECTOR:  "I'm not sure what to offer . . . what did you pay for the cover?"

ME;  "Well, I got this cheap at, I think, $2,500."

I would never tell anyone who initiated the conversation what I had paid.  That's completely irrelevant to the deal at hand, so the only data point that's relevant is what price is he willing to offer me to get me to part with the piece of art.  

I've had people initiate contact with me about buying a piece, and when I replied that I might be willing to sell, some came back to me and asked what did I want for it.  I always replied "You contacted me, so it's kind of up to you to make an offer.  I'm not going to negotiate against myself."  That usually weeds out the game players from the serious buyers pretty quickly.