CLink June 7 auction thread 4 4

[comix4fun]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:01 AM, KirbyCollector said:

So now we have reduced 1st apps to body parts other than the face. What is next?

"Sir, I seriously dispute your assertion THIS is the highly valued first appearance. Anyone who knows anything about first butt appearances knows the lower, more curvaceous bottom segment is MUCH more valuable than the boring top. Why, to consider the waist at all shows poor taste, and suggests an overabundance of Don Heck in your collection."

There was a page at auction last year from New Mutants #98. It was the first page that Deadpool "appeared" on....his fist was behind a sound effect blurb. You couldn't see the fist, but it was there.  That was the biggest test of the "first appearance page" calculus thus far. 



It's a play on the "If a tree falls in the forest.... question...
"If a character first appears on a page, but the bidders cannot see them, does it still demand a premium ?"

[Fischb1]

First ever panel appearance fun! 

[Grendel72]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:41 PM, Xatari said:

A few quick points. 

1. Harley appears in a panel before the one that sold (albeit from behind).
2. I would not always value the first ever page over a subsequent page from the same issue as often the art is better on a latter page. Case on point, this past year I was looking for a Spider-Punk page from ASM 10. His first page came up for sale but only has him in one very small panel. The second page to me is more desirable as it is much better artistically. I would have bought either but paid more for the second.

Yes, when I said first ever appearance, i meant the first ever full OA appearance within a specifc book. It's the same argument for IH 180 vs 181 or Conan 23 vs 24 i.e., between books.  No end to this. Plus there will always be exceptions like splash pages etc. But the more major a character, the more likely the first ever full appearance would cost more holds as a general statement for OA and Comic books. 

[Panelfan1]

So every collector will decide for themselves..but a 22 page comics that takes 10 minutes to read... One page to the next shouldn't matter. All the pages within the book should be (IMO) be treated the same from a first appearance pov as long as that character appears on the page. The distinguishing factor will be the content/quality of the page. Splash/action scene/#of panels and story content of the page.  My 2¢

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:22 PM, Panelfan1 said:

So every collector will decide for themselves..but a 22 page comics that takes 10 minutes to read... One page to the next shouldn't matter. All the pages within the book should be (IMO) be treated the same from a first appearance pov as long as that character appears on the page. The distinguishing factor will be the content/quality of the page. Splash/action scene/#of panels and story content of the page.  My 2¢

I’m probably in the minority, but I don’t consider 1st appearances any more valuable at all. For me it’s the art team, composition, era. First appearance valuations are comic books, not art. I’m sure there’s many arguments to prove me wrong - and that’s just fine.

But, I’m not a player in the OA game, so at some point added value has to be marketed in some way to skyrocket prices, and this is the way to do it.

[comix4fun]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:59 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I’m probably in the minority, but I don’t consider 1st appearances any more valuable at all. For me it’s the art team, composition, era. First appearance valuations are comic books, not art. I’m sure there’s many arguments to prove me wrong - and that’s just fine.

But, I’m not a player in the OA game, so at some point added value has to be marketed in some way to skyrocket prices, and this is the way to do it.

Most OA collectors, I think, take a lot of criteria into account. Storyline matters, Penciler and inker matter, writers can also matter, era matters, characters matter. If it's a big character their first appearance matters. Like you mention, that last criteria has been one used to seek out, value and collect comics for more than half a century. In some cases, it's an easier transition from collecting comics to collecting OA to apply some of those same priorities....key issues, key arcs, key character appearances. I mean, a lot of collectors transitioned from comics to OA by collecting characters, many times without an eye towards art team or era and more focus on image composition. There's no wrong way to do it I guess. Art appreciation starts and evolves for everyone differently. 

Like the OA to X-men 266. The pages from that book with Gambit present go for more than any other Mike Collins artwork you'll ever find. You'd have hundreds if not thousands more collectors wanting pages from X-men 266 than any other Mike Collins work. So, I get what you're saying that one factor should not determine value, but it's become clear that no single criteria should be ignored in valuation as well. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 6/10/2023 at 12:48 PM, comix4fun said:

Most OA collectors, I think, take a lot of criteria into account. Storyline matters, Penciler and inker matter, writers can also matter, era matters, characters matter. If it's a big character their first appearance matters. Like you mention, that last criteria has been one used to seek out, value and collect comics for more than half a century. In some cases, it's an easier transition from collecting comics to collecting OA to apply some of those same priorities....key issues, key arcs, key character appearances. I mean, a lot of collectors transitioned from comics to OA by collecting characters, many times without an eye towards art team or era and more focus on image composition. There's no wrong way to do it I guess. Art appreciation starts and evolves for everyone differently. 

Like the OA to X-men 266. The pages from that book with Gambit present go for more than any other Mike Collins artwork you'll ever find. You'd have hundreds if not thousands more collectors wanting pages from X-men 266 than any other Mike Collins work. So, I get what you're saying that one factor should not determine value, but it's become clear that no single criteria should be ignored in valuation as well. 

I agree with all of that, most definitely. I'm glad you read my post the way I intended, because I re-read it and it sounds a little like I don't believe it should apply, which I recognize that it does apply. I just don't seek out original art with those attributes is what I meant to put across.

I also agree it can be distilled down from character > story arc > early or late appearance, etc with each attribute adding more to the value. I'll never get near an X-Men 266 or 244 or similar, so it's easy to be armchair quarterback on this topic - I just didn't want it to come across that I somehow believe it should be that way for everyone.

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 6/10/2023 at 3:54 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I agree with all of that, most definitely. I'm glad you read my post the way I intended, because I re-read it and it sounds a little like I don't believe it should apply, which I recognize that it does apply. I just don't seek out original art with those attributes is what I meant to put across.

I also agree it can be distilled down from character > story arc > early or late appearance, etc with each attribute adding more to the value. I'll never get near an X-Men 266 or 244 or similar, so it's easy to be armchair quarterback on this topic - I just didn't want it to come across that I somehow believe it should be that way for everyone.

I understand what you are saying… but i look at first appearance like I would look at any other significant story point.., Byrne X-men for instance one of the most sought after runs yet dark Phoenix saga gets a premium over proteus for instance… or silvestri X-men inferno gets a premium over run of the mill… kree/skrull war more then avg avengers .. etc etc … we love the art but we love the stories too that’s how we started with the art so premiums get added to the most loved stories and it should be the same for the introduction of the most beloved characters. 

[MAR1979]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:17 PM, Unstoppablejayd said:

I understand what you are saying… but i look at first appearance like I would look at any other significant story point.., Byrne X-men for instance one of the most sought after runs yet dark Phoenix saga gets a premium over proteus for instance… or silvestri X-men inferno gets a premium over run of the mill… kree/skrull war more then avg avengers .. etc etc … we love the art but we love the stories too that’s how we started with the art so premiums get added to the most loved stories and it should be the same for the introduction of the most beloved characters. 

Agreed, Art for Classic and Historic story lines or appearances will always command a premium.  Adding to your example; art from Iron Man Demon In A Bottle issues command more coin than other Romita jr_Layton issues, 1980s DC Alan Moore works bring in more regardless of the artists involved, Avengers Korvac Saga issues regardless of artist - the Wenzel pages go for solid $ on the rare occasion one pops up.  Perez Crisis Infinite Earths pages go for more than most NTT pages from the same era

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by MAR1979

[Xatari]

I transitioned from Baseball Cards to Comics to OA.  I feel like I have been conditioned to hunt the "rookie card" since the 80s.  

[Dirtcheap31]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:19 PM, Xatari said:

I transitioned from Baseball Cards to Comics to OA.  I feel like I have been conditioned to hunt the "rookie card" since the 80s.  

Lol same here 

[Panelfan1]

On 6/10/2023 at 7:19 PM, Xatari said:

I transitioned from Baseball Cards to Comics to OA.  I feel like I have been conditioned to hunt the "rookie card" since the 80s.  

That makes sense. The thing is a rookie card is one piece of cardboard. A comic has a cover and many pages. But they are attached by the staple making them like one card. If one were to rip a card apart into different pieces,  I guess the corner (border) of the card is not as important as the players eyeball, or maybe the symbol on the uniform.. but you see how silly it is to try and rip apart a single card and then calculate value based on parts. Maybe it's a terrible analogy. Just trying to see if I can  think like a card collector 😅 Feel free to correct me or make a better analogy. Please and thanks!

Edited June 11, 2023 by Panelfan1

[Xatari]

Haha! Nice. I get it. I mentioned previously I personally view all pages of a first appearance issue as a characters first appearance since they were published at the same time. 

Maybe a better sports card analogy would be the same rookie card with different backgrounds. Some are more desirable than others but all are considered rookie cards. 

Regardless, I wouldn’t recommend ripping up a card just like I wouldn’t recommend ripping up a page of art.  To use your analogy though, people do “rip up” full issues of art and sell as individual pages with various assigned values. 
 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Xatari