So what exactly is the problem with cleaning or restoring a comic? 1 1

[Mokiguy]

I've never quite understood the problem that TPG's and many collectors have with a nice looking comic.

First let me say this. Before I began collecting some comics, I collected (and still do) Morgan and Peace dollars. And the collectors and the TPG's had/have the same issue with coins that have been cleaned. I have never understood why. Certainly we want to know that what we are buying or collecting is real. I mean who want's to pay for a one carrot diamond only to find out it's a man made zircon. But once it's established that what you have is real, why do people care if its been cleaned or restored if the finished product looks good. If the cleaning and/or restoration is so good that only a professional under microscope, certain lighting or other sophisticated forensics can even determine if it's been cleaned or restored, why should it matter. If you go to the Louvre in Paris to see the Venus De Milo or Florence to see Michael Angelo's "David", do you think that they have 2.000 years worth of dirt on them or do you think they have both cleaned them and keep them clean? Yet with a comic or a coin it's such a big deal to clean or restore them that they give them a different label or notation and an accompanying reduction in value..

Now the Venus De Milo has both arms broken off, and we certainly wouldn't want to have some new arms fitted to that famous statue, just as we wouldn't want some amateur or even a professional coloring in some missing centerfold pages of a comic. But re attaching a cover or centerfold that was detached, or repairing a rip or removing stains, how is that any different than reattaching her head if it were to fall of. Would it make that any less of a famous statue? Would her value be cut in half? If the outcome looks better than if left alone, so what?

So that's what was rattling around in my head this morning, anyone want to share their view?

[shadroch]

The Pieta was extensively restored after a hammer-wielding madman attacked it.   No one seems to object to it.  

[SOTIcollector]

On 6/9/2023 at 9:41 AM, Mokiguy said:

I've never quite understood the problem that TPG's and many collectors have with a nice looking comic.

First let me say this. Before I began collecting some comics, I collected (and still do) Morgan and Peace dollars. And the collectors and the TPG's had/have the same issue with coins that have been cleaned. I have never understood why. Certainly we want to know that what we are buying or collecting is real. I mean who want's to pay for a one carrot diamond only to find out it's a man made zircon. But once it's established that what you have is real, why do people care if its been cleaned or restored if the finished product looks good. If the cleaning and/or restoration is so good that only a professional under microscope, certain lighting or other sophisticated forensics can even determine if it's been cleaned or restored, why should it matter. If you go to the Louvre in Paris to see the Venus De Milo or Florence to see Michael Angelo's "David", do you think that they have 2.000 years worth of dirt on them or do you think they have both cleaned them and keep them clean? Yet with a comic or a coin it's such a big deal to clean or restore them that they give them a different label or notation and an accompanying reduction in value..

Now the Venus De Milo has both arms broken off, and we certainly wouldn't want to have some new arms fitted to that famous statue, just as we wouldn't want some amateur or even a professional coloring in some missing centerfold pages of a comic. But re attaching a cover or centerfold that was detached, or repairing a rip or removing stains, how is that any different than reattaching her head if it were to fall of. Would it make that any less of a famous statue? Would her value be cut in half? If the outcome looks better than if left alone, so what?

So that's what was rattling around in my head this morning, anyone want to share their view?

There's a big distinction between comics, or coins, and one-of-a-kind works of art like the Venus de Milo or the Mona Lisa.  The way a collector thinks of a mass-produced item (comics, coins) is very different from the way a collector thinks of a unique item.  When an item is mass produced, a collector always has the choice of waiting for a different or better copy.  Not so with the theoretical "up-for-sale" Venus de Milo (or other unique item).

When an item was mass produced, the more a buyer wants it to be in its original state.  You see that with coins, comics, cars, and many other area of mass-produced collectibles.  That's because over time there are typically multiples of any mass-produced item available for sale, and collectors will pay more for an unrestored one, or expect a discount for a restored one.

Are you saying that if you had the choice between two comics, both graded 8.0, and one is professionally restored and one is in its original state, you'd really have no preference for the original one?  Or are you just saying that the discount for restored items is steeper than you'd expect?

 

 

 

 

[LowGradeBronze]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:51 PM, SOTIcollector said:

 

Are you saying that if you had the choice between two comics, both graded 8.0, and one is professionally restored and one is in its original state, you'd really have no preference for the original one?

 

 

 

 

Perfectly said. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[shadroch]

In most cases, I'll go with the restored if it is substantially cheaper. Most of my Schomburg Timelys were restored. 

[LowGradeBronze]

It is a nuanced conversation that's for sure. Not comics but I saw a TV programme where someone bought a genuine as used space helmet from the Gemini space program I think and one way or another they removed every original surface and decal and replaced them with reproduction finishes and parts. Not one bit of this historic item which had "seen" space was left on show. Then they auctioned it and the worst part was, they thought they'd done such a great job. 

To be clear, I'm not equating that example with restoring comic books. It's a stand alone example of something being 'perfect' with its imperfections for the simple reason that it was genuine in a way that it could never be after these hacks messed with it.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[pemart1966]

On 6/9/2023 at 10:35 AM, shadroch said:

The Pieta was extensively restored after a hammer-wielding madman attacked it.   No one seems to object to it.  

There was, as I recall, some debate as to whether to leave the damaged Pieta as is or to repair it.  They repaired it.

The David was also damaged with a hammer.  They gathered up all of the fragments and repaired/restored it.  I couldn't tell.

 

[flchris]

On 6/9/2023 at 10:26 AM, LowGradeBronze said:

It is a nuanced conversation that's for sure. Not comics but I saw a TV programme where someone bought a genuine as used space helmet from the Gemini space program I think and one way or another they removed every original surface and decal and replaced them with reproduction finishes and parts. Not one bit of this historic item which had "seen" space was left on show. Then they auctioned it and the worst part was, they thought they'd done such a great job. 

Brings the Ship of Theseus discussion/argument to mind…

[LowGradeBronze]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:08 PM, 850chris said:

Brings the Ship of Theseus discussion/argument to mind…

It stands a better chance to win the philosophical argument if it's being used as intended continuously while undergoing periodic repairs that over time see every timber replaced. If it's a static restoration project then it loses. Like the space helmet, all the parts that were removed could in fact have been reassembled (after removing them from the dustbin,) to recreate the original item once again.

So now you have two! I know which one is the original.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[MattTheDuck]

On 6/9/2023 at 8:26 AM, LowGradeBronze said:

It is a nuanced conversation that's for sure

100% this.  I don't personally buy "restored" books but have mixed feelings about them. What I'm glad about is that restoration is usually (but obviously not always) disclosed.

In general, the idea of returning something to its original condition doesn't seem like it should be that controversial - as noted in a couple examples above. I have a lot of respect for works of art - broadly defined - and it upsets me when one is defaced or changed based on modern standards. We've had discussions around here also about "restoring" cars which, whether they're old or have just been in an accident, is not frowned upon. It seems to me that, if restoration is disclosed (and I include pressing in here) and the pricing of books reflects the general view that restoration devalues the book, everyone should be able to at least accept, if not embrace, a system of that kind.

[LowGradeBronze]

Glad to hear someone include pressing as restoration. Any comic carefully stored for X number of years and in a genuine high grade vs a cleaned and pressed example is a rarer beast and should be recognised. It's so much harder to get that recognition with all those other books which have been hopped up to an equivalent grade by manipulation of one kind or another. It artificially swells the cohort of books in that grade. 

The question is: Does that matter? and to me, it kind of does!

Perhaps 'manipulated' needs to be added the list of terms along with conserved and restored.

Edited June 9, 2023 by LowGradeBronze

[thehumantorch]

On 6/9/2023 at 7:41 AM, Mokiguy said:

I've never quite understood the problem that TPG's and many collectors have with a nice looking comic.

First let me say this. Before I began collecting some comics, I collected (and still do) Morgan and Peace dollars. And the collectors and the TPG's had/have the same issue with coins that have been cleaned. I have never understood why. Certainly we want to know that what we are buying or collecting is real. I mean who want's to pay for a one carrot diamond only to find out it's a man made zircon. But once it's established that what you have is real, why do people care if its been cleaned or restored if the finished product looks good. If the cleaning and/or restoration is so good that only a professional under microscope, certain lighting or other sophisticated forensics can even determine if it's been cleaned or restored, why should it matter. If you go to the Louvre in Paris to see the Venus De Milo or Florence to see Michael Angelo's "David", do you think that they have 2.000 years worth of dirt on them or do you think they have both cleaned them and keep them clean? Yet with a comic or a coin it's such a big deal to clean or restore them that they give them a different label or notation and an accompanying reduction in value..

Now the Venus De Milo has both arms broken off, and we certainly wouldn't want to have some new arms fitted to that famous statue, just as we wouldn't want some amateur or even a professional coloring in some missing centerfold pages of a comic. But re attaching a cover or centerfold that was detached, or repairing a rip or removing stains, how is that any different than reattaching her head if it were to fall of. Would it make that any less of a famous statue? Would her value be cut in half? If the outcome looks better than if left alone, so what?

So that's what was rattling around in my head this morning, anyone want to share their view?

You'd also see similar issues with restoring vehicles.  A car with original paint, a car that is unrestored, or a car with matching numbers on the major components is worth more.  Collectors tend to value items that are in original condition higher than items that have been worked on.

And let's be fair about cleaning and pressing.  There are a ton of pressed and cleaned books going through CGC that aren't getting dinged for restoration.  When a CGC grader can see damage to a book, a loss of color or cleaning marks or  waffle marks or crapp pressed into the cover, they ding it for restoration because it's been damaged and doesn't look as good.  If a book is cleaned and pressed properly it will look better and it will get a higher grade.

Wouldn't you want to pay less for a book that had obvious damage caused by improper cleaning or pressing?  Wouldn't you want to pay less for a book that had pieces added or a rip repaired?

[LowGradeBronze]

Just to harp on about my space helmet example, there was a motorbike once owned and raced by Steve McQueen which got the same kind of restoration treatment. Not a single surface that would have come into contact with SM remained afterwards. Then it got auctioned as a SM owned bike but it was in essence a fraud.

[theCapraAegagrus]

Restoring to deceive is . Restorative cleaning can be damaging. Restorative processes that conserve are good, though.

[Cman429]

I see it like this when all your doing is returning something to its original state, like pressing or cleaning, nothing is being added so it’s still in essence authentic. When you perform restoration on something, you’re adding to it thereby negating what it is.

To use another fine art example, if I look at the Mona Lisa, I want to know every brush stroke was performed by master Leonardo himself. Carefully cleaning it doesn’t affect my appreciation one iota bc at the end of the day it’s still 100% his. But if I found out some art school goof saw a chip in the background and decided to fill in the paint himself, well, then you’ve altered it and it’s no longer an original work. 

That’s how I feel about abominable purple label comics.

[rumrunner71]

I think some of it is rarity of the book in grade. Seeing a 1930s or 40s book that has survived and been cared for enough to be a higher grade without resto is really impressive. But I wonder if we would even be talking about this as much if resto didn't get such a distinctive PLOD from CGC? Was resto as big of a deal pre-CGC? (Assuming it was disclosed, of course)

[MattTheDuck]

Not to belabor this, but one of the problems I see is in the use of "restored" to describe things that are not actually "restoring to its original condition" (which is how I understand the word - YMMV). If the book was clean, bright and flat coming off the printing press and you clean and press it, you are "restoring it to its original condition."  In my mind, if you are marrying a cover or adding pieces that were not in the book coming off the printing press, you are doing something else and I'd love to see another word accepted to describe this kind of activity.

[LowGradeBronze]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:17 PM, MattTheDuck said:

 In my mind, if you are marrying a cover or adding pieces that were not in the book coming off the printing press, you are doing something else and I'd love to see another word accepted to describe this kind of activity.

I thought that word was Frankenbook......

[comicginger1789]

There are restorative aspects that personally I am okay with (on books that I would be blessed to own). For example, reinforcing the book in some way professionally, replacing rusty staples that are era correct so the book does not see continued damage.

What I do not like is colour touch, adding pieces back that were missing, and of course trimming. Trimming removes part of the original book to make it look better. And with colour touch and adding pieces, none of that was part of the original item. They have been recreated. In a way, like with a classic vehicle, people want original parts....not reproduction parts. And they pay a premium for that. With comics, that opportunity is lost (unless we are talking marrying covers and pages to make a complete book, something I am also not against).

All of it leads to not an original book. So you may have a gorgeous book but majority of it has been recreated and is not original. It looks great sure but I would never pay as much for that compared to an original even if the original had some detracting features. Again, with a car example, people will prefer and original barn find vehicle over one that someone has "recreated" with some original parts but a lot of re-manufactured aspects. Granted the car analogy is not perfect because you can restore an old car to make it worth more but again, that is a luxury cards have being comprised of many pieces that can be found, unlike comic books.

[comicginger1789]

At the end of the day, I am going to marvel over the guy with the Batman 1 from his grandpa that is all there, complete and in VG shape compared to the guy who has a copy somebody trimmed, added pieces to and essentially recreated a chunk of the cover for. Sure it looks great and is still great to own but the value is in the untouched copy and the dream for all collectors, as silly as it is for many of us, is that we will one day find or be able to own that first example