Jack Kirby's Son Comments On New Stan Lee Documentary 3 3

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

What was Marvel publishing in 59?

A whole bunch of Stan Lee titles. 

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

They were on a muzzle with distribution. ...

Yes, Goodman was limiting what they could do because he had no faith in Lee. 

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

if Archie was such an opportunity, why did he leave ?

It would've only been an opportunity if he'd have stayed. 

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:34 PM, comicwiz said:

Maybe memories aren't great, especially for those harping on how Kirby fared when he left Marvel. How about when Stan Lee left Marvel to start a company that lasted only 2 years? Anyone recall "7th Portal?" I was working for an IT consulting company at the time, one of the guys was a voice actor for the Spider-Man animated series in the late 60's. His last name was also Lee. At the time, I remember seeing the heavy marketing/advertising around Stan Lee Media's (SLM) 'webisodes.' 165-man animation production studio based in  LA that after two years went bankrupt, with three SLM people being indicted for allegedly defrauding the business in a check kiting scam. The next time you think Kirby's work was only good because of Stan, remember the above mentioned.

I always thought Stan AND Jack put out a superior product , not so much separately.... it's a shame their egos got in the way. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

What was Marvel publishing in 59?

A whole bunch of Stan Lee titles. 

Wasn't Kirby involved with most of those ?

GOD BLESS ....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

They were on a muzzle with distribution. ...

Yes, Goodman was limiting what they could do because he had no faith in Lee. 

I don't buy this. He was there for 20 years at that point. This memo thing seems a lot like the FF 1 synopsis ... sure shows up at a convenient time.... wasn't Stan the only employee then ? Flo Steinberg was the second ? Who was this "memo" distributed to? GOD BLESS ....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:46 PM, Prince Namor said:

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, jimjum12 said:

if Archie was such an opportunity, why did he leave ?

It would've only been an opportunity if he'd have stayed. 

Archie certainly had a reputation for promoting the notoriety of their creative people, and enriching them. What, maybe a small signature on an occasional splash ? More work for hire? GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:54 PM, jimjum12 said:

I don't buy this. He was there for 20 years at that point. This memo thing seems a lot like the FF 1 synopsis ... sure shows up at a convenient time....

Convenient? A convenient time would've been 1974, or 1984, or 1994...

And it's not like Jack was the only one who said it...

Dick Ayers: Things started to get really bad in 1958. One day when I went in Stan looked at me and said, "Gee whiz, my uncle goes by and he doesn't even say hello to me." He meant Martin Goodman. And he proceeds to tell me, "You know, it's like a sinking ship and we're the rats, and we've got to get off."

(From my Interview with Artist Drew Freidman, earlier this year):

Drew Friedman: "My dad (Bruce Jay Friedman) actually worked at Magazine Management, which was the company that owned Marvel Comics in the fifties and sixties, so he knew Stan Lee pretty well. He knew him before the superhero revival in the early sixties, when Stan Lee had one office, one secretary and that was it. The story was that Martin Goodman who ran the company was trying to phase him out because the comics weren't selling too well."

and:

"I can’t really speak for my dad who died two years ago, but he always told me he liked Stan very much, Stan’s office was right next to my dads so they saw each other all day, and he did feel bad for him during those lean years for Atlas comics because he felt the company’s owner Martin Goodman was trying his best to humiliate Stan by constantly downsizing his office and his assistants, attempting to phase out the comics line altogether without actually going as far as firing him, probably because he was the cousin of Goodman’s wife. My dad said he really admired how Stan held on, held his ground, even when he was down to the lone desk in a cubicle, one secretary, and hardly anyone else around him. Of course Stan would later have the last laugh when Marvel exploded in the sixties."

On 6/29/2023 at 3:54 PM, jimjum12 said:

wasn't Stan the only employee then ? Flo Steinberg was the second ?

Flo wasn't hired until 1963.

On 6/29/2023 at 3:54 PM, jimjum12 said:

Who was this "memo" distributed to?

Flo Steinberg: After a couple of interviews, I was sent to this publishing company called Magazine Management. There I met a fellow by the name of Stan Lee, who was looking for what they called then a gal Friday.... Stan had a one-man office on a huge floor of other offices, which housed the many parts of the magazine division.... Magazine Management published Marvel Comics as well as a lot of men's magazines, movie magazines, crossword puzzle books, romance magazines, confession magazines, detective magazines....

[buttock]

Lee wasn't doing well without Kirby.  Kirby wasn't doing well without Lee.  Lee & Kirby get together and reinvent the universe.  Kirby leaves and he and Lee both come down to earth.  Seems like, as is true in many cases, that the two of them together were greater than the sum of the parts.  Both sides want credit for their contributions, and in their minds they both have an argument.  But I've read enough on both sides to see that both of them contributed, and none of it occurred in a vacuum.  Even if one of them came up with a character, that was probably at the end of a process of multiple conversations.  So while, yes, the final crystallization was from one or the other; both parties had a role in development.  

[Prince Namor]

I appreciate the attempt to find common ground here but...

On 6/29/2023 at 4:32 PM, buttock said:

Lee wasn't doing well without Kirby.  Kirby wasn't doing well without Lee. 

Kirby was actually doing well. Even though his Challengers of the Unknown had done well for DC and gotten its own book even before the Flash did, he'd had to leave DC*. But at Marvel, he was writing AND drawing Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, and Tales of Suspense, as well as doing a Western story here and there and a romance story here and there and most of the covers. 

He was making more than LEE.

When Goodman opted to have him start ANOTHER monster book (Amazing Adventures), Stan began to white out signatures. He took over that comic and changed it to Amazing Adult Fantasy and for the first time in his career decided to do (sort-of) Sci-fi stories, signing his name all over the place with Steve Ditko as the artist. 

On 6/29/2023 at 4:32 PM, buttock said:

Lee & Kirby get together and reinvent the universe.  Kirby leaves and he and Lee both come down to earth. 

Lee came down to earth a lot sooner than that. He created no new titles of importance for the rest of his career after 1964.

On 6/29/2023 at 4:32 PM, buttock said:

Seems like, as is true in many cases, that the two of them together were greater than the sum of the parts. 

If Comic Books ended in 1960, Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame. Stan wouldn't be. 

If the Silver Age never existed and they just skipped that decade... Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame. Jack wouldn't. 

On 6/29/2023 at 4:32 PM, buttock said:

Both sides want credit for their contributions, and in their minds they both have an argument.  But I've read enough on both sides to see that both of them contributed, and none of it occurred in a vacuum.  Even if one of them came up with a character, that was probably at the end of a process of multiple conversations.  So while, yes, the final crystallization was from one or the other; both parties had a role in development.  

No one is saying Stan had nothing to do with anything. the issue is Stan and Marvel and Disney saying Stan created EVERYTHING.

In a Federal Court under oath, Stan repeated what he'd been saying for the last 20 years of his life:

"I created all of it. And I just assigned the artist I thought was best for it."

THAT is why there's an uproar.

 

 

*Showcase #4 with Flash comes out July 5th, 1956. Flash wouldn't get his own title released until December of 1958!

It would be 2 and 1/2 years until DC felt it was popular enough to carry its own title!

By that time - Challengers of the Unknown was on issue #6 of its own title!! Lois Lane was already on issue #7!

Both of those titles came AFTER Flash in Showcase...

Challengers of the Unknown would appear in a DC title 10 times (6 in its own title) before Flash would get his own book.

Lois Lane would appear in Showcase and her own title 9 times before Flash would get his own book.

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 4:32 PM, buttock said:

Lee wasn't doing well without Kirby.  Kirby wasn't doing well without Lee.  Lee & Kirby get together and reinvent the universe.  Kirby leaves and he and Lee both come down to earth.  Seems like, as is true in many cases, that the two of them together were greater than the sum of the parts.  Both sides want credit for their contributions, and in their minds they both have an argument.  But I've read enough on both sides to see that both of them contributed, and none of it occurred in a vacuum.  Even if one of them came up with a character, that was probably at the end of a process of multiple conversations.  So while, yes, the final crystallization was from one or the other; both parties had a role in development.  

... Excellent, Dan. Some people just aren't able to see that. One other thing is often not mentioned, and that is, the 60's were a wondrous crucible for all things heroic and miraculous. The time was ripe for new legends and both Stan and Jack sensed that. They were both connecting with the audience in their own ways. Let's face it, Jack was spending every second hunched over a drawing board (Thank God ... ) and would have had no time for anything else. Successful franchises depend on marketing and Brand Identity, the product has to be forced through the pipeline, after all, we're not looking over Jack's shoulder while he draws ... we're lining up at the newsstand trying to get our books before they sold out... which they did at times ... at least the Marvels did. But that's a dynamic that isn't understood unless you were actually there. There's a LOT more to it than pretty pictures. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[buttock]

On 6/29/2023 at 2:49 PM, Prince Namor said:

I appreciate the attempt to find common ground here but...

Kirby was actually doing well. Even though his Challengers of the Unknown had done well for DC and gotten its own book even before the Flash did, he'd had to leave DC*. But at Marvel, he was writing AND drawing Journey Into Mystery, Strange Tales, Tales to Astonish, and Tales of Suspense, as well as doing a Western story here and there and a romance story here and there and most of the covers. 

He was making more than LEE.

When Goodman opted to have him start ANOTHER monster book (Amazing Adventures), Stan began to white out signatures. He took over that comic and changed it to Amazing Adult Fantasy and for the first time in his career decided to do (sort-of) Sci-fi stories, signing his name all over the place with Steve Ditko as the artist. 

Lee came down to earth a lot sooner than that. He created no new titles of importance for the rest of his career after 1964.

If Comic Books ended in 1960, Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame. Stan wouldn't be. 

If the Silver Age never existed and they just skipped that decade... Jack Kirby would still be in the Hall of Fame. Jack wouldn't. 

No one is saying Stan had nothing to do with anything. the issue is Stan and Marvel and Disney saying Stan created EVERYTHING.

In a Federal Court under oath, Stan repeated what he'd been saying for the last 20 years of his life:

"I created all of it. And I just assigned the artist I thought was best for it."

THAT is why there's an uproar.

 

 

*Showcase #4 with Flash comes out July 5th, 1956. Flash wouldn't get his own title released until December of 1958!

It would be 2 and 1/2 years until DC felt it was popular enough to carry its own title!

By that time - Challengers of the Unknown was on issue #6 of its own title!! Lois Lane was already on issue #7!

Both of those titles came AFTER Flash in Showcase...

Challengers of the Unknown would appear in a DC title 10 times (6 in its own title) before Flash would get his own book.

Lois Lane would appear in Showcase and her own title 9 times before Flash would get his own book.

You like to argue. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:11 PM, buttock said:

You like to argue. 

So, you keep making your statements and Jimjum keeps making his statements...

But I make my statements and its ME that likes to argue.

[buttock]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

So, you keep making your statements and Jimjum keeps making his statements...

But I make my statements and its ME that likes to argue.

Yes, thank you for proving my point. 

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:18 PM, Prince Namor said:

So, you keep making your statements and Jimjum keeps making his statements...

But I make my statements and its ME that likes to argue.

We're trying to save you, but you won't stop struggling ....

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:24 PM, jimjum12 said:

We're trying to save you, but you won't stop struggling ....

From what? Being blind like you?

No thanks.

[jimjum12]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

From what? Being blind like you?

No thanks.

Ignorance is bliss, brother ... let me lead you into the glow  GOD BLESS .... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

... I personally thought Iron Man was a fantastic effort and Heck's art was spectacular, at least until Stan started trying to force him into a "Kirby" mold. There's only one King.

[Aman619]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:34 PM, comicwiz said:

Maybe memories aren't great, especially for those harping on how Kirby fared when he left Marvel. How about when Stan Lee left Marvel to start a company that lasted only 2 years? Anyone recall "7th Portal?" I was working for an IT consulting company at the time, one of the guys was a voice actor for the Spider-Man animated series in the late 60's. His last name was also Lee. At the time, I remember seeing the heavy marketing/advertising around Stan Lee Media's (SLM) 'webisodes.' 165-man animation production studio based in  LA that after two years went bankrupt, with three SLM people being indicted for allegedly defrauding the business in a check kiting scam. The next time you think Kirby's work was only good because of Stan, remember the above mentioned.

That’s the Peter Paul era. Do you know much about him?  Besides the financial crimes with SLM that caused him to flee the country to Brazil?

he was a guy in LA political and business circles. Stan’s office at Saban had pics of him with with famous pols. These photo op meetings were set up PPaul.  He latched onto Stan and saw potential in Stan for himself. After the marvel bankruptcy with Ike and Avi getting Marvel, PP got his chance when Ike said  “what do we need you for Stan?” (They wanted to cut him off from his deal)

PP got Stan to go into business with him as Stan Lee Media to create an online (the hot new thing in town) comics universe. Stan went to Ike and said okay, I’ll go, but I have a new gig and I want to be allowed to use Marvel characters in my promotion with this company. Ike said sure — happy to not have to pay Stan all that dough.  

Funny thing though — SLM worked! It was a public company and pretty quickly, with Stan onboard as Creative figurehead, the stock was worth more than Marvel!  Press pieces said they could buy Marvel at one point (Marvel was still a penny stock re-emerging from bankruptcy…)
 

…and they probably should have bought Marvel because SLM soon imploded along with many many Web 1.0 startups. Plus PP was playing financial games with the stock running afoul of the SEC after it crashed. Like Bankman Fried and others since then. 
 

Stan had no part in all that - given his poor business sense - he was along for the ride as PP looked like a genius at first. They never created any characters of any notoriety. But in fairness, very few hit long lasting comics characters were created around then. Or all that often ever, really. 
 

So the SLM mess has no bearing on Stan as success or failure. It was a pump and dump by PP that succeeded briefly due to the internet connection and Stan’s rep as a comic genius. All fluff. At this stage of Stan’s career, he was all marketing front man for characters created by committee. That description may sound just like his stint at Marvel on the surface. But Stan was infinitely more involved creatively building Marvel than he was cashing in on “Stan Lee” being used as a piece in Peter Paul’s shenanigans. 

[shadroch]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:18 AM, lordbyroncomics said:

Sure, much of that is fair. So, here is a question for you asked with respect: what does the work for hire agreement in the sixties have to do with Stan lying later on?

We are talking about one of the creators changing their story, contradicting earlier statements and outright lying when it aligns with corporate purchasing and job security. It has nothing to do with Jack disagreeing with work for hire. That's another argument that might be more relevant to the "Marvel didn't return his art in the Eighties" conversation.

We're talking about Stan saying "I think the guy who has the idea is the creator" and then saying- in print, no less!- that Doctor Strange "Twas Steve's idea"- and then, in 1974, saying it was his idea and, quote, "And Steve Ditko was the artist I selected to draw the story." (but why say in print years earlier it was Steve's idea?)

Work for hire ensures that colleagues can suddenly lie?

Shadroch, does work for hire ensure that you can take credit away from someone else? Yes or no please.

 

Stan said stuff to fan magazines. Crucify him.  Kirby testified under oath about the ownership of Captain America and was a good lackey for Marvel, screwing his former partner and his own family of ownership of the character.  

If Stan retired in 1960, and Goodman brings in another relative to oversee his comic line, does the Marvel Age happen?

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:01 PM, Aman619 said:

This happens all the time in all industries.  Ideas happen and the good ones take a life of their own and those in the room grab ahold and ride it as best they can.

In creative industries? Can you give some examples?

On 6/29/2023 at 3:01 PM, Aman619 said:

Jack and Steve did a lot more of the creating than the credits showed or was talked about. Stan should have taken a Dialogue By credit not a Written By credit on all the stories.  How about Packaged By?  Produced by?  Just dont try to push Stan out of the room. He held the reins that put it all together, by utilizing his artists talents and creativity and as the face to the fans.  And NONE OF THEM ended up owning ANY of it!  Stans later wealth came from his relationship to the fans etc, he was deemed necessary to maintain Marvel in the public's eye to the tune of a mil a year.  It was money well spent.  Avi and Ike initially wanted to let Stan go but soon relented with his 1M deal. 

LOL... THAT is hilarious. Here's how it really went.

Here's the Stan Lee Media Timeline.

(13...."to void Stan Lee's exclusive lifetime employment agreement that Stan had received in consideration for his creation of the majority of its world-famous Superhero characters."

August 1998: Lee is terminated by Marvel. For some reason, BARRON's seems to be the only news outlet that reports this. 

October 1998: Stan Lee Media founded. On October 15th Lee assigns his IP rights (including any possible rights to the Marvel characters) to SLM. 

Nov. 1998: Lee signs a new contract with Marvel which, among other things, gives Lee 10% of film and television profits. In exchange Lee agrees with Marvel in writing that he created the Silver Age characters as work for hire, has no rights to them and never did have any rights to them.

On 6/29/2023 at 3:01 PM, Aman619 said:

Sure they could have spread it around more to Jack and Steve.. dont big multi national corporations do that for employees (let alone freelancers) that have no contracts or legal rights?  Nope. And tiny Goodman sized businesses dont either.  So, how about a little concern for poor Stans reputation going forward.  It can only go down and Jack and to a lesser degree Steve rise

Here's some of the court documents below. The terminology used is that Stan used his leverage of ownership of those characters to get his million dollars a year. It's pretty clear. 

[Prince Namor]

On 6/29/2023 at 5:59 PM, Aman619 said:

That’s the Peter Paul era. Do you know much about him?  Besides the financial crimes with SLM that caused him to flee the country to Brazil?

he was a guy in LA political and business circles. Stan’s office at Saban had pics of him with with famous pols. These photo op meetings were set up PPaul.  He latched onto Stan and saw potential in Stan for himself. After the marvel bankruptcy with Ike and Avi getting Marvel, PP got his chance when Ike said  “what do we need you for Stan?” (They wanted to cut him off from his deal)

PP got Stan to go into business with him as Stan Lee Media to create an online (the hot new thing in town) comics universe. Stan went to Ike and said okay, I’ll go, but I have a new gig and I want to be allowed to use Marvel characters in my promotion with this company. Ike said sure — happy to not have to pay Stan all that dough.  

Funny thing though — SLM worked! It was a public company and pretty quickly, with Stan onboard as Creative figurehead, the stock was worth more than Marvel!  Press pieces said they could buy Marvel at one point (Marvel was still a penny stock re-emerging from bankruptcy…)
 

…and they probably should have bought Marvel because SLM soon imploded along with many many Web 1.0 startups. Plus PP was playing financial games with the stock running afoul of the SEC after it crashed. Like Bankman Fried and others since then. 
 

Stan had no part in all that - given his poor business sense - he was along for the ride as PP looked like a genius at first. They never created any characters of any notoriety. But in fairness, very few hit long lasting comics characters were created around then. Or all that often ever, really. 
 

So the SLM mess has no bearing on Stan as success or failure. It was a pump and dump by PP that succeeded briefly due to the internet connection and Stan’s rep as a comic genius. All fluff. At this stage of Stan’s career, he was all marketing front man for characters created by committee. That description may sound just like his stint at Marvel on the surface. But Stan was infinitely more involved creatively building Marvel than he was cashing in on “Stan Lee” being used as a piece in Peter Paul’s shenanigans. 

Also a strange way to look at it.

Stan created a company based on ownership of all of those Marvel Characters, and then when HE got his MILLION dollar a year contract from Marvel, gave up the rights to those characters that his new company was founded upon... essentially dooming it from the start. 

(Because, let's face it, he hadn't even had a hand in creating anything original or successful since 1964...)

He's very lucky HE didn't do jail time. 

[Aman619]

somehow you missed the part about Peter Paul pulling Stan's strings during this time in this negotiation with Marvel.  I may have forgotten the legal ins and outs that led to the deal they made, but the spirit of it was as I wrote it in a simplified way. Certainly it wasn't as cut and dried as I described it with all the lawyers involved and Ike and Avi seeking to ensure that Stan would never be a legal problem for them.

Stan did not CREATE Stan Lee Media.  It was all Peter Paul's doing. Stan was just the public face of it. trust me on this.  You know lots about Stan Lee, so you know business acumen was not his forte. I dont say that Peter Paul was the mastermind with Stan as his puppet as a point in Stans favor. If you saw them together in these days you'd see it was obvious Stan was a sheep in Peter Paul's grasp and control.  Stan was in his 70s and out at Marvel. The same instincts that used to trust his handlers 20 years later were there in his dealings with Peter Paul.  Putty in his hands.