Edgar Church Mile high penciled dates on cover. 1 1

[sfcityduck]

On 6/25/2023 at 9:42 AM, adamstrange said:

Different distributor.  A distributor had a contract with specific publishers, so the distributor code is way that the drugstore knew who to ship books back to.

Timely, Fawcett and DCs are "D".  Fiction House is C.

Which is why its a lousy indicator of a specific pedigree. Church had D, C, and some say E. Promise has K and C. And lots of non-peds have those markings as well (some even intentional attempts to make people think a book was a MH copy I've heard). The only way to truly confirm a book is a Church would be to follow the provenance back to Chuck, right? Everything else is just a guess if you are basing it on distributor marks.

[adamstrange]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:03 PM, sfcityduck said:

 The only way to truly confirm a book is a Church would be to follow the provenance back to Chuck, right?

And how do you "prove" that?

There will always be some uncertainty with pedigree designation.  Church copies with distributor marks are among the easiest to determine for a Church pedigree expert.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 2:21 PM, adamstrange said:

And how do you "prove" that?

There will always be some uncertainty with pedigree designation.  Church copies with distributor marks are among the easiest to determine for a Church pedigree expert.

In the fine art world, it is usually done with written (sales records, etc.) or oral history. For the Mile Highs, it doesn't hurt that there are lists of much of the collection. CGC holders help entirely if you are willing to trust CGC - but I believe some mistakes have been made. Even if you don't entirely trust CGC, if the provenance is established up until CGC, you don't need to worry much about what came after. Auction records, especially with photos, help a lot. In many cases tracing provenance should be pretty easy for something that came to the market at a time when the hobby was fairly mature and also obsessed with the value of the Mile High tag. There is certainly a lot of information about some of the books that folks are most interested in.

For others, the provenance may be lost. That's ok. The books will sell themselves if they are Mile High quality. 

I really care less about "losing provenance" than I do about falsely "creating provenance" by encouraging folks to guess or make unsupported claims based on a copy looking good (there are many high grade non-pedigree books) and having a distributor mark on the cover. If that was the test, then some of those Promise books would have passed for Mile High books.

Not sure condition is the way to rule out a book being a MH. No way is every Mile High still in the shape it was when Chuck brought them home. I'm not talking about restoration - its just inevitable that some have been damaged (or, worse yet, destroyed). If we have provenance, no problem recognizing a beat up book as a pedigree.

Edited August 19 by sfcityduck

[adamstrange]

On 8/19/2024 at 6:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

In the fine art world, it is usually done with written (sales records, etc.) or oral history.

"Oral history"

If the book doesn't look and smell like a Church copy, then provenance isn't going to convince me because of the risk of the history being incorrect.  State of preservation is a fact and is what I'm paying for anyway.  If the book has gone through so much since it's sale by Chuck that it's unrecognizable to the pedigree, then I'm not interested in it and it's not worth any premium.

If you've seen and studied a few thousand Church copies, your ability to identify them is going to be pretty good.  Even if you're wrong, you'll still have a spectacular copy which is why the pedigree concept was originally created.

[RareHighGrade]

While distributer markings are not by themselves dispositive, they can be highly corroborative when considered along with other indicia such as grade, smell and the history of ownership.

On 8/19/2024 at 1:53 PM, sfcityduck said:

Real pedigree marks are unique to the buyer.

You mean like this?

 

[Robot Man]

On 8/19/2024 at 3:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

In the fine art world, it is usually done with written (sales records, etc.) or oral history. For the Mile Highs, it doesn't hurt that there are lists of much of the collection. CGC holders help entirely if you are willing to trust CGC - but I believe some mistakes have been made. Even if you don't entirely trust CGC, if the provenance is established up until CGC, you don't need to worry much about what came after. Auction records, especially with photos, help a lot. In many cases tracing provenance should be pretty easy for something that came to the market at a time when the hobby was fairly mature and also obsessed with the value of the Mile High tag. There is certainly a lot of information about some of the books that folks are most interested in.

For others, the provenance may be lost. That's ok. The books will sell themselves if they are Mile High quality. 

I really care less about "losing provenance" than I do about falsely "creating provenance" by encouraging folks to guess or make unsupported claims based on a copy looking good (there are many high grade non-pedigree books) and having a distributor mark on the cover. If that was the test, then some of those Promise books would have passed for Mile High books.

Not sure condition is the way to rule out a book being a MH. No way is every Mile High still in the shape it was when Chuck brought them home. I'm not talking about restoration - its just inevitable that some have been damaged (or, worse yet, destroyed). If we have provenance, no problem recognizing a beat up book as a pedigree.

Not all Church Mile High books are high grade. Many such as these were probably stored in the basement on the floor and were possibly moved around. I bought these graded so I just have to trust CGC.

[Robot Man]

I bought this one directly from Chuck at Casual Con in the early '70's when he first brought the collection out for sale. Every book he brought was the Church copy. I bought a good size stack mostly of censorship books which I was into very heavily at the time. Yeah, I was "bottom feeding" even back then...

But of note. Years ago another copy popped up graded by CGC as a Church Mile High copy. I can only vouch for this one but of course after all this time have no concrete proof. Are there any other known dupes in the collection?

I did feel better when @adamstrange visited the junk pile several years ago and gave them the once over with a sniff test to confirm this one as some others I also bought that day. He has owned or handled more of the later ones than anyone I can think of. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:03 PM, sfcityduck said:

 And lots of non-peds have those markings as well (some even intentional attempts to make people think a book was a MH copy I've heard). 

Egads! Just thinking about that is enough to give me a toothache.

[Frisco Larson]

On 8/19/2024 at 6:00 PM, adamstrange said:

"Oral history"

If the book doesn't look and smell like a Church copy, then provenance isn't going to convince me because of the risk of the history being incorrect.  State of preservation is a fact and is what I'm paying for anyway.  If the book has gone through so much since it's sale by Chuck that it's unrecognizable to the pedigree, then I'm not interested in it and it's not worth any premium.

If you've seen and studied a few thousand Church copies, your ability to identify them is going to be pretty good.  Even if you're wrong, you'll still have a spectacular copy which is why the pedigree concept was originally created.

I had a very interesting conversation with John Verzyl in Chicago a number of years ago, about the preservation of the Church copies after they were sold off by Chuck. John's estimate was that his storage method was the best he'd known of. He even had a raw Church Timely to show as an example of how white the pages still were. If memory serves, it was a female hero book, like a Blonde Phantom or something. This was one of those conversations where I wish I had a tape recording going because as hard as I tried to soak up and retain as much info as I could, I failed miserably to remember a goodly portion of the details. One strong take away from the conversation is that once the Church copies left that long-time storage environment, they began to age just like any other comic out in the world. Until they were disturbed by being sold, the Church copies were in as close to suspended animation as any comics we've known about, but many don't consider the fact that their new owners store them in a variety of conditions, so they aged somewhat differently from that point on. It was such an interesting conversation and John was VERY passionate about comics and that collection in particular. I sure have missed seeing him in Chicago. His was a wealth of knowledge that is sorely missed and can never be replaced, not to mention the fact that he was just generally a nice guy, ready to talk comics until they started kicking us out of the building. Anyway, yeah, they HAVE aged differently over the last several decades.

[adamstrange]

On 8/19/2024 at 10:53 PM, Frisco Larson said:

One strong take away from the conversation is that once the Church copies left that long-time storage environment, they began to age just like any other comic out in the world. Until they were disturbed by being sold, the Church copies were in as close to suspended animation as any comics we've known about, but many don't consider the fact that their new owners store them in a variety of conditions, so they aged somewhat differently from that point on.

The Church basement was clearly an ideal storage environment.

The purchasers of Church copies, however, tend to be the collectors who take the best care of the books.  The copies I see, even if "less" than when Chuck or Jon first handled them, are still amazing.  The "Church" copies I see that aren't, haven't turned out to be Church copies.

[Frisco Larson]

On 8/19/2024 at 10:03 PM, adamstrange said:

The Church basement was clearly an ideal storage environment.

The purchasers of Church copies, however, tend to be the collectors who take the best care of the books.  The copies I see, even if "less" than when Chuck or Jon first handled them, are still amazing.  The "Church" copies I see that aren't, haven't turned out to be Church copies.

I would agree with that. However, I HAVE heard of Church copies that were apparently (from what I've heard) stored in a garage (Fiction House issues I believe) that were lessened to a substantial degree because of that environment. Page quality being called out as the most major change. I've also heard that some had an unfortunate run in with one or more cats, leaving them ... stained. But yes, I agree that most collectors who can afford to purchase Church copies take responsible care of them. 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 4:00 PM, adamstrange said:

State of preservation is a fact and is what I'm paying for anyway. ... If the book has gone through so much since it's sale by Chuck that it's unrecognizable to the pedigree, then I'm not interested in it and it's not worth any premium. ... Even if you're wrong, you'll still have a spectacular copy which is why the pedigree concept was originally created.

I agree 100%. 

The pedigree concept was a pre-internet, buy through the mail, creation -- a type of reputational instilled peace of mind that organically arose because it gave buyers a strong degree of confidence that the book they were buying would live up to their expectations.  

That founding purpose is no longer necessary in the CGC and internet world if state of preservation is what you are after. You can have enough information to judge for yourself. You can find pedigree quality books without paying a premium for an outmoded concept.

To me, pedigrees only matter if they have a really good story. Otherwise, buy the book not the marketing hype. 

But, if you value the story more than the state of preservation, then a lower grade Mile High might well be satisfying -- especially in today's market.

To each his own.

[adamstrange]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:21 PM, Frisco Larson said:

I would agree with that. However, I HAVE heard of Church copies that were apparently (from what I've heard) stored in a garage (Fiction House issues I believe) that were lessened to a substantial degree because of that environment. Page quality being called out as the most major change. I've also heard that some had an unfortunate run in with one or more cats, leaving them ... stained. But yes, I agree that most collectors who can afford to purchase Church copies take responsible care of them. 

The Jumbo's, Jungles, and Planets were auctioned by C-connect.  For FH, they are uniformly spectacular compared to every other copy I've seen so, whatever did happen, isn't that bad, though, I do encourage everyone to stay away from them in hopes their prices collapse.

Some copies have degraded and here's what I wrote about that:

On 8/19/2024 at 7:00 PM, adamstrange said:

If the book has gone through so much since it's sale by Chuck that it's unrecognizable to the pedigree, then I'm not interested in it and it's not worth any premium.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 4:49 PM, RareHighGrade said:

 

You mean like this?

 

Yep. Nothing better than a name to ID a book. Especially for an Okajima.

Edited August 20 by sfcityduck

[adamstrange]

On 8/19/2024 at 11:26 PM, sfcityduck said:

That founding purpose is no longer necessary in the CGC and internet world if state of preservation is what you are after. You can have enough information to judge for yourself.

Yes, it is, and no you can't, as scans are often insufficient means to judge preservation.  The best method is to handle the book raw in proper lighting.

I've learned to be a pretty good judge even when the book is in a slab, but I'm less accurate when working off a scan.  With the vagaries of scans/pictures and image processing, I much prefer to have both a scan and to know that the book is from a pedigree.

CGC's pedigree determination is not 100% accurate and will never be 100% accurate.  So far, it is has proven for me to be very useful. YMMV.

[tth2]

On 8/20/2024 at 5:03 AM, sfcityduck said:

Everything else is just a guess if you are basing it on distributor marks.

Nobody reputable identifies a book as a Church book solely on the basis of distributor marks.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:24 PM, Robot Man said:

I bought this one directly from Chuck at Casual Con in the early '70's when he first brought the collection out for sale. Every book he brought was the Church copy. I bought a good size stack mostly of censorship books which I was into very heavily at the time. Yeah, I was "bottom feeding" even back then...

But of note. Years ago another copy popped up graded by CGC as a Church Mile High copy. I can only vouch for this one but of course after all this time have no concrete proof. Are there any other known dupes in the collection?

I did feel better when @adamstrange visited the junk pile several years ago and gave them the once over with a sniff test to confirm this one as some others I also bought that day. He has owned or handled more of the later ones than anyone I can think of. 

 

 

I don't doubt the experience and expertise of @adamstrange, but I would be more than satisfied based on the story you just told that the books you bought from Chuck are what he told you they are. While I understand the "smell test" relevant to Mile High copies, there are other comics that have been stored in cedar (top graded Action 1 is an example), and that smell certainly can fade or be replaced. 

While many of the Mile Highs that were of the greatest interest to collectors went to some very well known collectors, others were sold to guys who are bit more private and who still own the books (yourself included). I don't know if anyone has counted up how many Mile Highs have shown up for the CGC treatment. I would not be surprised if it was less than half. Even big books are buried in collections like the Action 1 never to be seen, and Chuck allegedly forgot who the buyer was on some of the notable books he sold (isn't that the story on Wonder Woman 1?) and they too are whereabouts unknown (at least to most of us). I've read about frequent buyers of Mile Highs from Chuck whose names I've never heard on these boards. But some of those guys have kids. Makes you wonder if they are buried in generational collections (and no I'm not referring to Dave and Adam). 

A long winded way of saying that provenance is definitely a useful and reliable way of identifying a pedigree like the Mile Highs.

 

Edited August 20 by sfcityduck

[tth2]

On 8/20/2024 at 8:13 AM, Robot Man said:

Not all Church Mile High books are high grade. Many such as these were probably stored in the basement on the floor and were possibly moved around. I bought these graded so I just have to trust CGC.

Not all Church books are structurally high grade.  But barring bad storage practices after they left Edgar's basement, they will still have a freshness and vibrancy that surpasses the vast majority of their peers.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:27 PM, adamstrange said:

The Jumbo's, Jungles, and Planets were auctioned by C-connect. 

 

Somewhere I heard the story that Jerry Buss, deceased owner of the Lakers, owned the Planets and sold them off when he hit a financial rough patch and needed the money to assist in avoiding the need to sell the Lakers. But, I can't confirm that stage in the provenance with anything on the internet. This would have been a long time ago.

[sfcityduck]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:35 PM, adamstrange said:

Yes, it is, and no you can't, as scans are often insufficient means to judge preservation.  The best method is to handle the book raw in proper lighting.

I've learned to be a pretty good judge even when the book is in a slab, but I'm less accurate when working off a scan.  With the vagaries of scans/pictures and image processing, I much prefer to have both a scan and to know that the book is from a pedigree.

CGC's pedigree determination is not 100% accurate and will never be 100% accurate.  So far, it is has proven for me to be very useful. YMMV.

Back in the day, a lot of folks were buying books from Chuck sight unseen. Chuck established the reputation of the collection by initially offering them to collectors at cons where they could see the obvious superior quality of the books. But having established that reputation, he quickly shifted to mail order sales. Many buyers did not have the option of inspecting the books in person. The reputation of the collection, established by testimonials of those lucky enough to have bought or seen copies, is what became the first "pedigree." It was a word of mouth testimonial based reputation.

Today, we don't need comics to be designated a pedigree to have the confidence to buy them through the mail or internet. We have the benefit of tools beyond just testimonial reputation: Third party grades and page quality evaluations, grading notes, scans of interior (for raw or pre-grading) and exterior, etc.  Today a pedigree designation is not the result of community popular acclaim, it is a marketing concept controlled by grading companies and to a much lesser extent dealers who market the comics.

Sure, I wouldn't buy a comic at the top of my budget without wanting to see it in person. Nor would I sell such a book to a buyer without inspection. But most of the books I buy or sell do not warrant the expense of a trip to inspect the comic. I buy the same way many did back in the pre-internet days -- on faith and reputation (in the reputation of the sellers, the reputation of the pedigrees, and in an optimistic view of human nature). Sometimes it doesn't work.