A discussion on Artificial Intelligence and how it's going to affect our industry. 3 3

[Aman619]

On 9/8/2023 at 12:06 PM, Dr. Balls said:

In my previous career, I was a graphic designer. I was likely part of the last era where scholastic training included stat camera use, paste-up and drawing skills intermixed with the new digital tools that were coming to market (this was 1993). A few years after that when digital pre-press became affordable for printing companies to accept electronic files and produce plates digitally, that collegiate training I received gave way to a all-digital focus, which practically erased all the fundamental knowledge in the field - replacing from hands-on use of old equipment to reading and performing lessons from a book.

When I started teaching Graphic Design in the 2010s, the mentality of using the computer to circumvent basic fundamentals was really apparent in my students. I can count on one hand how many students out of a couple hundred I had that possessed natural or practiced artistic skills - the rest felt they could rely on the computer to help do the work for them. That was an incredible challenge to try and reverse, and it rarely worked in the short time I had with them until they moved along in the program.

The Graphic Design vocation used to actually have some meaning, because it required artistic ability, skills with your tools and conceptual, compositional and communication knowledge. Technology is an excellent tool in practiced hands, but that's the exception - most of the time it serves as a crutch to people who don't fully know the foundations of what they are using that tech for.

And I don't blame the people who use these things - they want to be creative and expressive. But, society has told them that taking the shortcut can get you there, and it can't. But the general populace accepts it anyway - which is why everything in the world around us looks so junky now.

I've seen it with photography. I've seen it with sign painting, and while the graphic design profession is muddied beyond recognition after decades of novices delving into the field - the bleeding seems to have stopped, as AI takes hold and threatens the last bastion of true creativity: Visual Artists and Writers.

I have seen what technology does to imagination - it's hampers and entangles it with technical roadblocks, restrictions, steps and parameters, instead of allowing it to flow organically. I'm not a fan of AI, and never will be. This is just one more thing to reduce the beauty and creativity of our world, but the scope of it is so far beyond what has come before it. We're crossing over into a time where we are actively flushing one of the most unique parts of humanity right down the crapper: the Creative Process.

To have an idea and within minutes see it in front of us might be interesting or cutting-edge, but people have lost sight of the importance of the journey in making that idea come to fruition through hard work, dedication, practice and learning.

And people can't get enough of it, ignoring the obvious cultural danger in lieu of making Facebook pictures of Frodo Baggins Riding A Dinosaur in the art style of John William Waterhouse.

great points.  as I was reading I thought of this:  when I first used the cloning tool, I was blown away! I saw it as a first ever mind blowingly NEW drawing/painting tool.  It allowed you to "paint" exactly what you pointed it to, pixel by pixel.  Ive extended images and collaged images together seamlessly with it, and layers, for decades.  BUT --- as in the examples of the kid riding a dinosaur,  I see Midjourney tools like this as just an extension of the cloning tool.  Now instead of manually and painstakingly cloning textures and elements I can let photoshop add background for me... and add and remove elements and the results are just as good as what I achieved after laborious effort moving the mouse around hundreds of times in all directions and building dozens of layers!  Starting with a pic of a boat at a dock?  tell it move it to a mountain lake or NY harbor....  at sunset!  Bam!

Ill be happy to not have to do things the old tedious ways (30 years old technology)  And, to your point about the end of creativity.  well, Commercial art and Graphic Design are still reliant on the eye of the designer. (and ultimately the client.... dont get me started!) Whatever AI gives us on a first pass still must be tweaked according to what the designer thinks looks best.  So, all thats changed is that he will get there quicker.  Its the next wave of digital retouching is all.

AI can instantaneously give you a first draft. Same as a design studios with artists and a creative director.  They meet to discuss, then he sends them out to do comps. Then rejects some, and and comments on changes he wants THEM to do next until he says its client ready.  Today the onus of DOING the grunt work is on them.  Now, in a way, they too (the assistants artists) have an assistant speeding THEIR comps. 

It's just technology improving the busy work.  True creatives will still create.  Its true that much of the lesser pieces like supermarket pamphlets and flyers will probably be crappier and hard to look at... but thats already the case isn't it? 

and I disagree about hampering creativity.  What hampers creativity is having an image in your head that you are trying to put in a form for others to see.  Since computers, clients have needed to see tighter and tighter comps to the point that they are Finishes now:  exact fonts, kerning, and all elements in place as in a finished product.  Thats takes sooo long when 35 years ago you could literally show sketches with scribbled text of markers and colored pencils and just HINT at the final look to get an approval.  I wont miss that if I can create a dozen looks by literally telling the software what Im seeing in my head,  no?

There will still be "happy accidents" along the way that make a look unique. If you've got the "eye" to spot them. They cant take that away from you!

[namisgr]

On 9/8/2023 at 9:00 PM, universal soldier said:

We really are getting closer to this reality. 

Not anywhere near as much from the effects of AI as from the prevalent problem with obesity and its consequent health effects in the US.  40% of all adult Americans are now considered obese, 9% severely obese.  It's a problem that has been worsening for over 40 years now and it contributes to a wide variety of major health problems.

Edited September 9, 2023 by namisgr

[universal soldier]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:10 AM, namisgr said:

Not anywhere near as much from the effects of AI as from the prevalent problem with obesity and its consequent health effects in the US.  40% of all adult Americans are now considered obese, 9% severely obese.  It's a problem that has been worsening for over 40 years now and it contributes to a wide variety of major health problems.

I was leaning more towards our dependence on technology and how it has replaced human interaction in the latest generation but certainly agree with the fact that obesitiy is a huge problem for America. You can definitely tie it to technology or "advancements" if food processing over the years. 

[D2]

On 9/7/2023 at 10:36 AM, VintageComics said:

Comics used to be solely an American thing, so when they were printing a million copies of comics in the 1940s, how many kids were actually reading?

Well, almost ALL of them.

The population of the US in 1940 was around 130 million people. How many were kids?

But the entire world wasn't reading comic books in 1940 so while we've seen readership dwindle in the US among children due to video games, television and other distractions both the population base is in the US has expanded but also, so has the worldwide reading base as well. 

Much like Hollywood's trajectory, the American pop culture has exploded into new markets where it never used to exist. 

It would be really interesting to delve into the demographics of how many kids there were in 1940 and what percentage were reading then compared to worldwide readers of comics now. 

 

But…

Why are average comic title sales in between 20,000 and 50,000 copies?

Even Marvel and DC’s greatest titles, The Amazing Spider-Man, and Batman get to between 90,000 and 150,000 copies. 

And that’s best guesses. Didn’t they stop releasing sales figures last year?

So I guess what I am saying is, how is it that comics aren’t dying?

Are American comics being read around the world? Are they really? 

I just find that, anyone using Comichron for sales figures is like using Jim Cramer for stock advice…

—-

 

Back on topic at hand: AI is the least of everyone’s problems. I say we invest in the future of this new technology and MAYBE, just maybe, someone intelligent enough can figure out a way to bring back the middle class with it. 

Because I will tell you something… the backbone of American, and virtually all other thriving civilizations is the Middle Class. And the Middle Class is eroded to a level almost unrecoverable, and this was all BEFORE AI.

[namisgr]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:48 PM, universal soldier said:

I was leaning more towards our dependence on technology and how it has replaced human interaction in the latest generation but certainly agree with the fact that obesitiy is a huge problem for America. You can definitely tie it to technology or "advancements" if food processing over the years. 

I'm curious how America's obesity problem is tied to technology.  I'd think junk food, advertising that normalizes giant portions and poor food selection choices, and less physical activity in general are large parts of the problem, and they began before the Internet era.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by namisgr

[universal soldier]

On 9/9/2023 at 8:08 PM, namisgr said:

I'm curious how America's obesity problem is tied to technology.  I'd think junk food, advertising that normalizes giant portions and poor food selection choices, and less physical activity in general are large parts of the problem, and they began before the Internet era.

 

On a basic level, many people today interact via social media, e-mail, chat or even posting here rather than face to face. Remote work over the past few years has led to college graduates entering the work force without understanding of how to interact in a business environment, lose out on mentoring from experienced employees, and creating bonds and friendships with the workplace. These life skills are huge and a great loss for many of the current generation. There's less of a need or desire to go outdoors and play as many of us did in our youth. I see many younger kids today who are content to sit inside and snapchat, or post on tiktok, etc... These habits are being learned at a young age and can certainly lead to a more sedentary life style. I agree that all of the things you mention were heading in the current direction well before the internet, but technology and the explosion of social media in the past 15 years IMO has accelerated the problem. Not the cause of the obesity issue but I think it has started to play a role in the overall problem.

 

[VintageComics]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:02 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I don't think you'd know. Unless you were super familiar with the copied scene. The algorithms are way beyond that now, so I don't think they're copying and re-presenting wholesale material. They're using the copied work as a template and reproducing something "inspired" by the original work. But I don't think we're far away from AI's creating entirely original stuff. 

It's getting really strange with music, since you can copyright AI generated songs. But who does the copyright go to? The creator of the AI or the user? I'm not sure that answer has been settled. 

As it relates to comics, if you created a new character and comic in the style of Frank Miller (without using an AI) would you be infringing on Miller's work? I don't think so, it's just an homage or something, isn't it? (Clearly, I'm not a copyright attorney). But if you had an AI do it, and it can be proved that the AI harvested the work of Miller, would that be different? 

All incredible questions and from the perspective of a successful creator who has skin the game.

It's discussions like these that keep me around. Love this sort of stuff.

[VintageComics]

On 9/8/2023 at 5:53 PM, Swagglehaus said:

There is no stopping the AI train at this point. I think we will see a combination of people using AI to churn out a mediocre Comics while also seeing talented writers/artists use it to improve upon their already incredible work.

Labelling AI generated work SHOULD BE MANDATORY in much the same way that labelling touched up model photographs should be mandatory.

We are losing touch with real life through tech, and for me that has always been the primary concern because most kids these days have no idea what real life even is. Seriously.

We've gone from joking around about living in an idiocracy to actually living in one in real time.

[VintageComics]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:35 PM, NoMan said:

Look, I’m sure your friend is a wonderful person but that work is not incredible, it’s insufferable 

Yeah, but so are you and we still keep you around. 

My friend is a very successful person, a hard worker and a quick learner. He's already evolving his craft and I'm pretty sure his next body of work is going to be much improved. 

But here is the key to his work - it's not meant for the "comic book crowd". You might get a few graphic novel readers that it may appeal to but it's meant for novel readers who want to see pictures, kind of like Bernie Wrightson's Frankenstien volume. 

It's not sequential story-telling. It's snapshots accompanying a great novel work, and once you see it in that light it takes on a very different perspective...at least to me. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:10 AM, namisgr said:

On 9/8/2023 at 9:00 PM, universal soldier said:

We really are getting closer to this reality. 

Expand  

Not anywhere near as much from the effects of AI as from the prevalent problem with obesity and its consequent health effects in the US.  40% of all adult Americans are now considered obese, 9% severely obese.  It's a problem that has been worsening for over 40 years now and it contributes to a wide variety of major health problems.

I think you missed his point, or at least the point I thought he was making and that is that tech advancements is one of the things driving the obesity and other health problems. 

As tech does more work, Americans are less physically active (making them physically unhealthier), less mentally stimulated (making them dumber) and less need to learn as much making them more incapable of problem solving.

And this is one of the examples of how tech creates unintended consequences.

Yeah, we love tech. It's awesome. I get a supercomputer in my pocket! 

But my kids are dumber, unhealthier and society is falling apart because of it. 

As long as people continue to ignore that there is a postiive AND a negative to everything, the negatives will continue to flourish. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/9/2023 at 4:56 PM, D2 said:

Why are average comic title sales in between 20,000 and 50,000 copies?

Even Marvel and DC’s greatest titles, The Amazing Spider-Man, and Batman get to between 90,000 and 150,000 copies. 

How many more titles do we have today compared to 70 years ago?

How many publishers do we have today compared to 70 years ago?

How many comics in total (gross) are published across all titles / publishers / characters compared to 1940 or 1950?

I chose 1940 because that was pre television and 1950 was after the release of public telivisioin IIRC.

Also, our discussions are very "Big 2" or "Big 3" centric (Marvel / DC / Image)

Are you counting Manga? Have you been to a manga convention? They're comics too. These kids don't read Superman or Spiderman but they read manga voraciously. 

Graphic novels? More comic readers. Some people are readers and not collectors so they won't buy comic books per se but will buy graphic novels or read them from Libraries. 

One of my lawyers is a voracious comic reader and is always asking me for things to read but he read graphic novels and doesn't collect comics. 

These are ALL things (and others) that should be factored into the discussion and considered for a well rounded discussion. 

On 9/9/2023 at 4:56 PM, D2 said:

Back on topic at hand: AI is the least of everyone’s problems. I say we invest in the future of this new technology and MAYBE, just maybe, someone intelligent enough can figure out a way to bring back the middle class with it. 

Because I will tell you something… the backbone of American, and virtually all other thriving civilizations is the Middle Class. And the Middle Class is eroded to a level almost unrecoverable, and this was all BEFORE AI.

Bringing back a strong middle class is contradictory to what many of the wealthy would want. They don't want an educated, intelligent, hard working middle class because that directly threatens them. 

It's much more convenient to them to have a ruling class and a subservient society...and I firmly believe this is an actual goal by the ruling class. They don't give two hoots about your feelings or your life and the economy is much easier to direct in their favor when we're all either ignorant, poor or against each other. 

This formula is the #1 thing that's changed since the powerful middle class post WW2 and I believe it's by design. You can see how corruption spreads as the middle class wanes. 

Don't listen to what a person tells you. Look and observe the behavior they show you. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:23 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Did you see this Roy? @VintageComics

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/11945/

Carney has been the instrumental leader in building a proprietary platform that enables CCG to identify a collectible from among millions of possibilities in a near-instant using artificial intelligence (AI), machine learning and advanced computer vision and image processing technologies. 

This link you posted has had my gears turning all week. 

I have been able to confirm now that Certified Collectibles Group is absolutely using AI in the grading process....but at this point I've only been able to confirm it for cards - sports cars primarily and not for comics yet. 

What they are doing is using AI to identify variants so that they don't get missed because apparently some cards have many variants (or very subtle differences - I can't remember which it was). So they are using imaging and AI to make sure the variants are properly labelled. 

Now I'm totally picking at straws here but I don't think it takes a lot to put 2 + 2 together. 

I am now almost certain that the implementation of imaging every book at CGC - which CGC just started doing a few months ago and we thought was implemented as a security feature to identify tampered holders, may actually also be the 1st stepping stone to AI grading for comic books. 

And I don't think AI will ever do comic grading (or at least not in the near foreseeable future as it's probably too cost prohibitive to have the mechanics of handling books AND imaging an entire book, BUT I DO THINK AI WILL REPLACE A PRE-GRADER soon. 

 

Some thoughts:

 

Page count? Weigh the book. If it is within certain parameters to a certain percentage of a gram (or ounce if you're metric) and you will know if a page is missing, a coupon is clipped or possibly even if a staple is missing. 

Something off about a book? Missing a page? Added resto material increasing the weight? Red flag and human inspection. 

But a significant portion of the books will get passed through as MOST comics are complete and unrestored. So now graders can focus on trouble books and not the ones that are simply a waste of time to check anyway. 

------------------------

How about catching obvious defects? 2 dimensional imaging can absolutely catch what might be obvious defects like printer defects, tears, missing pieces, creases, bends, waviness, discoloring, miscuts, miswraps, extra staples, off center staples, stains and who knows what else?

So, acting as a pre-grader, the AI will have to be fed a data base of what each cover actually looks like when proper and minty fresh, and then by comparing the Gold standard image to living examples, the AI will IMMEDIATELY project a grade ceiling for that book. 

 

So, how I envision this would all work is like this:

For example, if you have a NM book with a cover length crease that is unrestored and nothing is missing the book passes the weigh inspection and the visual images would put that book at a grade ceiling of Fine range - roughly what a NM book with a cover length crease would grade.

You've just done the majority of the pre-grader's job with no manpower, leaving the pre-grader to now fine tune the grade the way a 2ndary grader would, and then finalized by the finalizer. 

 

I'd bet dollars to donuts this is coming. 

[namisgr]

They are here already, at least comics that include in the cover or story pages artwork generated at least partly by AI.  But are any of them even decent let alone good?  And is there anything yet to suggest that this might one day move beyond collaboration between human artists/designers and generative AI and into a realm that obviates the need for human creative and artistic involvement?

Our mission is to raise awareness and promote stories that utilize AI generated art.  We want to provide a central place for these amazing stories, creators, and readers.

[comicwiz]

On 9/3/2023 at 11:43 AM, alexgross.com said:

there may be less AI than it appears currently in newspaper illustration. however, the use of stock imagery in all major newspapers (these 2 examples are from the NYT and WSJ this week) has been quite common for many years now, and seems likely to soon be replaced by AI generated imagery, as it will save costs. one person who knows how to write prompts can save all stock usage fees and possibly all fees for outside artists. 

before photoshop, illustrator and other apps made it simple to make small spot illustrations for print and digital media, all magazines and newspapers employed thousands of illustrators for every image that you saw. many of them were my teachers, friends and colleagues. now, most of these places employ one in-house artist/graphic designer, feature a lot of stock imagery from getty and other sources, and occasionally pay a name artist for a major article. the NYT is better than most at continuing to employ illustrators, as is the new yorker. but overall, most papers rarely do so and this number will continue to drop. 

How does AI resolve the royalties and rights managed areas of stock image use? AI simply borrows and does some heavy lifting of images belonging to others, it may remove metadata, making it more difficult for software uses by company's like Getty to locate them in their reiterated form, but AI doesn't just magically lift away the problem with stock image companies, photographers, and other copyright owners coming after any commercial use without permission or license. If anything, the lawsuits will pile up in the same way they did early on when Google came out with their image search, and people thought, oh look, how cool that I can use this image Google helped me find, and which I can use on my website, only to later find out that the image required permission and licensed use, and a lawsuit is pending if you don't pay the penalty for misuse and infringement.

[VintageComics]

On 9/10/2023 at 7:29 AM, namisgr said:

And is there anything yet to suggest that this might one day move beyond collaboration between human artists/designers and generative AI and into a realm that obviates the need for human creative and artistic involvement?

Of course there is.

Today, offerings of the highest quality where cost is not an issue are offered to the elite - the wealthy, the military, aerospace, etc. Those industries DEMAND quality first and cost is pretty much irrelevant. 

For the average Joe though, the watered down product for the masses generally leads with consideration of PROFIT first and therefore COST first and quality second but they are led to believe that it's 'almost as good' as the elite's offerings.

This 'almost as good' market, which on a bell curve is where MOST of the volume is going to be is where AI will thrive and there is PLENTY of precedent that supports this. 

---------------

It wasn't like this 70 years ago. There was a time when people cared more about the integrity of their products more than they do today. We've been duped as a society. 

The American automotive industry is the perfect parallel to illustrate my point in this discussion. 

American cars were the pinnacle of American quality until about the 1970's. It was always quality first. They led the world and Detroit was the most powerful industrial city in the world at one time. 

If you drove a Cadillac it meant something. My dad was so proud to get his first Cadillac that when they went to Europe with one in the early 70s everyone thought they were wealthy. They weren't. They were just normal middle class Canadians now, but even a simple old Chevrolet was viewed this way at the time over there. 

When the 1970's hit and tech started to speed up the Big 3 (GM / Ford / Chrysler) used that innovation to cut costs but despite what Lee Iaccoca famously stated, they rested on their laurels and didn't keep the same quality standards. They were instead satisfied to collect profits that simply rode on the coattails of their past glory and shovel inferior products to the masses. They fed you garbage, told you it was caviar and took your money in exchange. 

Why not? It kept shareholders happy, right?

But you can only lie to the public for so long, and what happened was eventually they couldn't hide the lack of quality in their products so a short sighted pump for profits ended up cannibalizing and toppling Detroit from being one of the most powerful cities in the world to a destitute, dystopian gangland in about 20 years. 

By the 2000s you could literally buy an entire neighborhood for what a home used to cost. 

Who stepped in to fill the void? The Asian car manufacturers.

How did they do this? For one, Asian society values personal integrity MUCH more than Western society. They feel dishonored if they don't do everything with integrity. 

THEY RAISED GOOD CHILDREN AND HAD STRONG FAMILY UNITS and those children grew up with strong work ethic and integrity in their work. 

When they came into the West in the 60's and 70's they put out garbage but as American products waned in quality, Asian products INCREASED in quality until they surpassed the American manufacturers. 

Word got out that they put out quality cars over time and  I remember when Toyota became #4 on the tails of TheBbig 3 of GM / Ford / Chrysler and eventually overtook them all.

Toyota is now the #1 manufacturer in the world year after year. 

How did they do it?

The played the long game and kept quality in their vehicles. To this day a 20 or 30 year old Toyota or Honda STILL holds their resale value higher than any mass produced American vehicles from the same era. Internationally these vehicles are so highly sought after that in POOR countries where they can't afford to service these vehicles regularly they are the vehicles of choice and pay a premium for them. 

-------------------------------------

How does that relate to this discussion?

The American Big 3 thought that 'almost good enough" was enough to keep the cash train running but it eventually collapsed like a ponzi scheme.

If publishers and movie companies can use AI to create "almost good enough" products while keep profits high, it will make them money in the short term because most people can't discern. 

But over time the truth will get out. We are already seeing masses complain about story quality as Disney and Warner churn out pure garbage while they greedily take their profits, and the general public isn't buying it.

I'm getting really tired of the short game, personally and refuse to watch much of what Hollywood churns out anymore. I've probably missed 90% of the comic book movies put out in the last 5 years.

AI will be more of the same unless someone with integrity sees the long game and chooses that over the short game. The tech is different but the ideology driving it is just more of the same.

And it will cause a total collapse of an industry unless it's used widely and with artistic integrity. 

We're already seeing it happen in real time as Hollywood begins to topple.

Ironically, Hollywood is the OTHER great American industry after the automotive industry that horrible leadership has ruined. 

Funny how even though they try to slow down the inevitable while milking blood from a stone, NOBODY can escape consequences forever. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by VintageComics

[ttfitz]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:51 PM, VintageComics said:

...and I happen to have a pretty good track record on being right in discussion. 

[ttfitz]

On 9/5/2023 at 1:56 PM, VintageComics said:

Everything needs to currently STILL be broken down into 1s and 0s and there are no 0.5s

Wellllllll, actual there is - except it is expressed as "0.1"

Signed,
The Pedantic Computer Science Major

[ttfitz]

On 9/5/2023 at 4:49 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

You would pick the one time this month he doesn't edit his post to make this joke 

[ttfitz]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, Lazyboy said:

On 9/6/2023 at 11:55 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I think the direct market distribution model, in the long run, was a horrible idea for the hobby. It's similar to how the PPV model was financially great for boxing in the short term, but longterm it's been catastrophic. Without free boxing on broadcast television, the sport has been unable to create a new generation of fans. Without wide distribution of comics, print runs are a fraction of what they used to be, even with the success of the MCU. 

Were the viewing numbers for the free boxing broadcasts dropping continuously, for years? Because the comparison makes no sense otherwise.

Comics didn't abandon the newsstand system (until recently), retailers and distributors dropped comics because they were too cheap. The comic industry might not even exist today if not for the direct market, certainly not as we know it.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive, and I kinda agree with both - yes, the direct market likely saved the comics industry, but in the long run it probably has become a bad thing for it.

[namisgr]

On 9/10/2023 at 11:19 PM, ttfitz said:

Wellllllll, actual there is - except it is expressed as "0.1"

Signed,
The Pedantic Computer Science Major

The computational brain has even further complexity.  For one thing, information processing takes place between computational units that aren't hardwired, but rewire themselves based on experience and activity.   More complexity comes from the passive and active electrical properties of the neuron, which expands their signaling way beyond the binary. 

- A Natterer About Neuroscience