COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[VintageComics]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:58 AM, 1Cool said:

Part of saying you will not debate someone is to just not respond when they type things about you.  Even if it's an attack or false - just don't respond since you have made your points enough time that it's not like people are confused by your stance on the stuff he is "attacking" you on.  Report him if you think it's way over the top but just stay strong since he is obviously trying to pull you into a debate that wlll probably get you a strike.

It's hard not to reply at all when it's been open season for years and even seems to be endorsed by the powers that be, but you're right. 

I've edited some of my posts over the last 12 hours and my intent was to stop engaging after my last reply. 

I do genuinely thank him for directing people to the Marvels movie discussion.

Thanks for the reminder, Andrew. 

[Mmehdy]

On 11/20/2023 at 8:08 AM, VintageComics said:

It's hard not to reply at all when it's been open season for years and even seems to be endorsed by the powers that be, but you're right. 

I've edited some of my posts over the last 12 hours and my intent was to stop engaging after my last reply. 

I do genuinely thank him for directing people to the Marvels movie discussion.

Thanks for the reminder, Andrew. 

Here is my 2 cents worth in the debate of the "century" between Vintage and  PN. I respect both of your opinions and agree/disagree with both of your points of view.

1-Marvel which is now owned by Disney needs corp approval to probably spend $$$, the bigger the company the smaller the ability to do things with who knows how many approvals are needed to spend corp money-so you are both right on this, Vintage's observation that Mavel has taken a second position at NYCC but his assumption that that is the true state of affairs. SDCC is the biggest and best comic book convention in the world, let alone the USA and you are wrong on that point. The  Marvel booth as been the same size at least the last 3 years and has been consistent and unchanged for a number of years and have a lot of attention every year including last. When that booth is cut in half...I will agree with you.

2-forcing creative decisions by ordering change according to "corporate"  values has a vast danger. I suggest both of you revisit on the greatest subversive movies of all time....ready....Rollerball 1975...true classic ...they used the action to hide the message.....Remember when Jonathan E ( notice no last name) and Mr. Bartholomew discussion on his retirement...Corporations have provided for everything...food, energy etc...you have a good life...of course you do what we say....that is the real danger here...rather than have a natural evolution  or revolution Blackrock and Disney, which does not have our best interest in heart, is gonna tell what is going to be made in the RIGHT way, in the corporate approved manner, call it waken, call it joke or whatever, remember  those who control the past control the future. So now Disney has to eat it because the Marvels, which is trash, and has been done over and over again is being rejected with the record 2d week decline of 78%  worst  any of the previous marvel movies...well DUH

 I get the point that change had to have been made....here is the case in point...the classic movie When Worlds Collide...1951...the end of the world......well everyone was "white" on that ship at the end of the world trip  that had to and rightfully change for the better. See the issue here is not what is right or politically correct...its who is using this change for their own purposes in addition to the cover story... mostly its power, money, corporate values etc Just beware who is "Big Brother" and remember  that Blackrock, Disney and  a whole host of characters  are  NOT you Brother.

3-Change is painful, change is reality, change is life as opposed to death.".Sabre"  was one of and still is a classic graphic novel I enjoyed in 1978...I still have it!!! that was change, that was beautiful, that was art, that was guts, that was love for the comic book...well that old saying...it is not what it used to be....where are those people today..2023...different, faster thinker, bombarded with every I phone, TV thought control device...we need more of one person....we need Jonathan E today!!!!...back in 1975....they for told you coming....but back then you were supposed to show up in 2018.....never happened...lets give it a couple of more decades....JONATHAN......JONATHAN.......JONATHAN..

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VintageComics]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:14 PM, Mmehdy said:

Vintage's observation that Mavel has taken a second position at NYCC but his assumption that that is the true state of affairs. SDCC is the biggest and best comic book convention in the world, let alone the USA and you are wrong on that point. The  Marvel booth as been the same size at least the last 3 years and has been consistent and unchanged for a number of years and have a lot of attention every year including last. When that booth is cut in half...I will agree with you.

This wasn't meant to be a discussion about which show as better.

Circling back to the Marvel booth, I can show you pictures of how their booth has changed over the years. The most impressive one I saw was over 10 years ago before the Thor movie was about to be released. They literally had Odin's throne there and it was so massive it was as big as any display I'd ever seen at a show. 

Now it's a shell of it's former self. 

This all meaning to say that Marvel's footprint at conventions, on shelves AND in the real world has been shrinking, and Anime's has been growing. 

So why is nobody talking about that? That point is at the crux of this entire discussion.

Everyone is missing the big picture.  

--------------------------

To the rest of your point, Corporate involvement destroys art. It always has. 

One ONLY cares about profit, the other ONLY cares about art and the two are wholly incompatible like oil and water. 

If the artist gets their way, the corporation makes less profit. 

If the corporation gets their way, the artist puts out a compromised product. 

I can give everyone a zillion examples of how corporations have ruined entire careers of artists and employees. 

Billy Squire. His career was RUINED by corporate involvement. 

Spider-man 3? Total disaster and Sony admitted there was too much corporate involvement. 

John Carter from Mars by Disney? Disney literally ruined that movie on purpose just because there was internal feuding among bigwigs. They literally sank a $300MIL blockbuster and ruined the lives of everyone involved by destroying their careers over feuding millionaires. Which significant role has Taylor Kitsch played since that Corporate version of a human sacrifice?

Bud Light? Destroyed nearly 40% of their value.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. 

Also, it's important to note that corporate involvement is NOT SHRINKING, IT'S GROWING. You can't escape it anymore. The Corporations are just as influential now as politicians were a few years ago. They literally have their fingers in everything. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 10:58 PM, 1Cool said:

Part of saying you will not debate someone is to just not respond when they type things about you.  Even if it's an attack or false - just don't respond since you have made your points enough time that it's not like people are confused by your stance on the stuff he is "attacking" you on.  Report him if you think it's way over the top but just stay strong since he is obviously trying to pull you into a debate that wlll probably get you a strike.

It's not an attack. I used his own words to show exactly what he said.

Roy has a habit of going back and editing his posts to cover things up, hoping it'll confuse moderation or whoever is trying to follow what he's saying. That's why people have learned to quote him.

The bottom line is - he DID say that Marvel is being influenced by outside FINANCIAL forces to make these changes. That it DOES extend to comics. I SHOWED were he alluded to it and how in his OWN words.

He previously DENIED it ("I said no such thing."), tried to take on the role of Victim again (comparing being held accountable for what he writes as "cancel culture") and then when SHOWN he DID actually say it, pretended it was never in question and deflected to "I'm not here to discuss people. I'm here to discuss ideas."

The discussion isn't about HIM, it's about what he WRITES. But when he can't back it up, he goes on the defensive and tries to play martyr. 

When he gets caught in a discussion he can't actually prove with anything other than his usual shell game, he becomes a VICTIM and blames everyone else. I've taken my share of abuse on this forum for my beliefs, but I don't parade around and show it off like a badge of honor. My actually BELIEFS are what I stand by and go back to. Not some strange masochistic drama dance I can do to drum up sympathy and make it all about myself. 

And I sure as hell don't edit other people's quotes to make it fit my narrative. 

[Buzzetta]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, VintageComics said:

This wasn't meant to be a discussion about which show as better.

Circling back to the Marvel booth, I can show you pictures of how their booth has changed over the years. The most impressive one I saw was over 10 years ago before the Thor movie was about to be released. They literally had Odin's throne there and it was so massive it was as big as any display I'd ever seen at a show. 

Now it's a shell of it's former self. 

This all meaning to say that Marvel's footprint at conventions, on shelves AND in the real world has been shrinking, and Anime's has been growing. 

So why is nobody talking about that? That point is at the crux of this entire discussion.

Everyone is missing the big picture.  

--------------------------

To the rest of your point, Corporate involvement destroys art. It always has. 

One ONLY cares about profit, the other ONLY cares about art and the two are wholly incompatible like oil and water. 

If the artist gets their way, the corporation makes less profit. 

If the corporation gets their way, the artist puts out a compromised product. 

I can give everyone a zillion examples of how corporations have ruined entire careers of artists and employees. 

Billy Squire. His career was RUINED by corporate involvement. 

Spider-man 3? Total disaster and Sony admitted there was too much corporate involvement. 

John Carter from Mars by Disney? Disney literally ruined that movie on purpose just because there was internal feuding among bigwigs. They literally sank a $300MIL blockbuster and ruined the lives of everyone involved by destroying their careers over feuding millionaires. Which significant role has Taylor Kitsch played since that Corporate version of a human sacrifice?

Bud Light? Destroyed nearly 40% of their value.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. 

Also, it's important to note that corporate involvement is NOT SHRINKING, IT'S GROWING. You can't escape it anymore. The Corporations are just as influential now as politicians were a few years ago. They literally have their fingers in everything. 

Marvel has shifted part of it's con budget and footprint to other shows especially after the Disney Acquisition.  Now Marvel Studios has shifted away from NYCC and focuses on SDCC and D23 which is the annual Disney convention where all Disney media is showcased. 

Hasbro no longer attends NYCC at all.  For years Hasbro would do NY Toy Fair, and the Tokyo Toy Show and a couple of others along with SDCC and NYCC where there would be large displays and their toylines would debut.   After Reed and the Javits raised prices, Hasbro abandoned NYCC, rented suites near the show and held their own debuts.  Then Hasbro abandoned NY all together.  Hasbro has it's own show, Hascon, they debut items at D23 related to Marvel and Star Wars properties, have maintained a presence in San Diego and has weekly drops across all lines over YouTube. (For example June was entirely for GI Joe reveals)

Marvel has not abandoned pushing their product they have shifted where they showcase it.  

Is that good or bad?  Only time will tell. 

However, showcasing Marvel Studios ventures at a comic con is no longer as important as presenting their ventures at something like D23 which not only has fan attendees but investor and corporate interest. 

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:03 AM, Buzzetta said:

Marvel has shifted part of it's con budget and footprint to other shows especially after the Disney Acquisition.  Now Marvel Studios has shifted away from NYCC and focuses on SDCC and D23 which is the annual Disney convention where all Disney media is showcased. 

Yep. Because Marvel is all about MOVIES now and SDCC has become all about movies. It is THE showcase for what's coming up. 

Comic Books have become a secondary focus for Marvel. There's more money to be made in Movies. Comic Book sales have been on the decline for decades, before Blackrock was ever a thing. 

As much as MARVELS will, in the eyes of the general public 'fail', (and let's be honest - it should've been a Disney TV series), it's just more content for Marvel the corporation and they will still have all their bills paid when it's all said and done. The 'failure' will be that they didn't 10X their investment. LOL. Awww... those poor millionaires. 

[1Cool]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:02 PM, Prince Namor said:

It's not an attack. I used his own words to show exactly what he said.

Roy has a habit of going back and editing his posts to cover things up, hoping it'll confuse moderation or whoever is trying to follow what he's saying. That's why people have learned to quote him.

The bottom line is - he DID say that Marvel is being influenced by outside FINANCIAL forces to make these changes. That it DOES extend to comics. I SHOWED were he alluded to it and how in his OWN words.

He previously DENIED it ("I said no such thing."), tried to take on the role of Victim again (comparing being held accountable for what he writes as "cancel culture") and then when SHOWN he DID actually say it, pretended it was never in question and deflected to "I'm not here to discuss people. I'm here to discuss ideas."

The discussion isn't about HIM, it's about what he WRITES. But when he can't back it up, he goes on the defensive and tries to play martyr. 

When he gets caught in a discussion he can't actually prove with anything other than his usual shell game, he becomes a VICTIM and blames everyone else. I've taken my share of abuse on this forum for my beliefs, but I don't parade around and show it off like a badge of honor. My actually BELIEFS are what I stand by and go back to. Not some strange masochistic drama dance I can do to drum up sympathy and make it all about myself. 

And I sure as hell don't edit other people's quotes to make it fit my narrative. 

I really have no idea about your back and forth with Roy but I can say that it appeared you were picking at what he saying and twisting some of the stuff he wrote to prove him wrong which is really tough when most of what Roy writes is his own personal opinions which can't really be wrong.  I don't agree with what Roy believes quite a few times but I don't feel the need to keep picking on the guy to try to get him angry.  He said he was done with the discussion so it really wouldn't have been hard to just let it drop (especially since you guys had both expressed your points).  In this one case I thought you were on the attack and appeared to be goading him into a fight (which never ends well for him) so I gave him a gentle reminder.  I have no interest in defending what Roy writes but I do defend his ability to voice his opinion without getting attacked at every turn.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:13 AM, 1Cool said:

I really have no idea about your back and forth with Roy but I can say that it appeared you were picking at what he saying and twisting some of the stuff he wrote to prove him wrong which is really tough when most of what Roy writes is his own personal opinions which can't really be wrong. 

Personal opinions CAN be wrong.

I can believe, with all my heart, that the head of CGC is an alien from the planet Vulcan. I would be wrong.

On 11/21/2023 at 3:13 AM, 1Cool said:

I don't agree with what Roy believes quite a few times but I don't feel the need to keep picking on the guy to try to get him angry.  He said he was done with the discussion

No one who ever says that is 'done' with the discussion.

On 11/21/2023 at 3:13 AM, 1Cool said:

so it really wouldn't have been hard to just let it drop (especially since you guys had both expressed your points).  In this one case I thought you were on the attack and appeared to be goading him into a fight (which never ends well for him) so I gave him a gentle reminder.  I have no interest in defending what Roy writes but I do defend his ability to voice his opinion without getting attacked at every turn.

On a public discussion forum - if you make a statement - someone is going to possibly reply. It's inevitable. 

If you manipulate statements - and make statements that go against what you previously said - and can't back up what you say and it gets pointed out - that's not an attack on the PERSON - it's an attack on what they say.

If I go around saying that the head of CGC is an alien from the planet Vulcan, and I manipulate quotes to make it seem as if it's TRUE and someone shows where I manipulated the quote to prove me wrong...

How is that an attack on me?

It's NOT.

But pretending it is, is a manipulative, disingenuous defense. 

[Buzzetta]

Again, this has been mentioned but it is an example of the problem.

The cost of this four issue mini series was $4 an issue.   Someone that read this went through the entire $16 series in twenty minutes. 

Twenty minutes.  

Let that sink in. 

That means that if we were to equate this to an hourly rate, he is being entertained at $48 per hour. 

Kids these days are better off buying the video game.  

 

[1Cool]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:20 PM, Prince Namor said:

Personal opinions CAN be wrong.

I can believe, with all my heart, that the head of CGC is an alien from the planet Vulcan. I would be wrong.

No one who ever says that is 'done' with the discussion.

On a public discussion forum - if you make a statement - someone is going to possibly reply. It's inevitable. 

If you manipulate statements - and make statements that go against what you previously said - and can't back up what you say and it gets pointed out - that's not an attack on the PERSON - it's an attack on what they say.

If I go around saying that the head of CGC is an alien from the planet Vulcan, and I manipulate quotes to make it seem as if it's TRUE and someone shows where I manipulated the quote to prove me wrong...

How is that an attack on me?

It's NOT.

But pretending it is, is a manipulative, disingenuous defense. 

Opinions can definitely be wrong and I love a good debate where people express their opinions and try to sway the other person but when I devolves into just arguing and name calling then I usually just tune out the bickering and move on to less argumentative threads.  Roy is very polarizing so I do see why he can make it easy to "fight" with him but just realize it gets very tiring to read the arguing when it goes too far. 

Roy hates to not get in the last word in a discussion and genuinely like him when I see him in person so I thought it was worth a nudge to not have him get into trouble again.  In terms of you - I really don't see your post very often so I don't have an opinion about your posts but hopefully we can get into some good, productive debates in the future.

[1Cool]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:22 PM, Buzzetta said:

Again, this has been mentioned but it is an example of the problem.

The cost of this four issue mini series was $4 an issue.   Someone that read this went through the entire $16 series in twenty minutes. 

Twenty minutes.  

Let that sink in. 

That means that if we were to equate this to an hourly rate, he is being entertained at $48 per hour. 

Kids these days are better off buying the video game.  

 

If anime and manga are the wave of the future in terms of what teens are reading then is it just because of the price point?  Why is anime and manga so cheap if that is the case?

[jsilverjanet]

I think there are several discussions going on being tied into one discussion

1 the decline of comics as a media form

2 the decline of marvel

1 - there are far more outlets as people have mentioned, i think video games is a great one. why spend $5 on a comic that i can read in 5 minutes etc, or play a video game for $60 that not only will last me forever (in a young persons version of time/space), but it's what all my friends are doing and i interact with while doing it etc

2 - the problem with Marvel is very complex. you have a set of characters with a backlog of history (over 60 years for Spiderman). Haven't all the spider-man stories been told already (over 5-6 titles throughout the years)? so what can i do with this character creatively that hasn't been done before

the people who were buying Spider-man in the 80's 90's 00's and even beyond, aren't buying the title anymore (unless you are completely the entire run) , what could they do to bring those readers back? anything? everyone claims better stories etc, but let's be honest we probably won't come back to buy it and if we do, how many issues will we stay on the run? are we going back to getting pull lists, or stopping at the comic shop on Wednesdays? how many of you are at your shop every wednesday?

go to a shop on Wednesday, look at the people who still have pull lists, look at those pull lists, that's an entire different group of buyers and I suspect not many on this CGC board

and this is with Spider-man, what chance does a b character have?

so Marvel needs to appeal to a new audience, an audience that has nothing to really do with the buyers from the previous decades etc

change the character too much, that group will be completely unhappy, but they weren't really buying your product so it doesn't matter

the smaller publishers like Image are successful because they can create a character and move on once their story is completed. Marvel is in a tough spot, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

so they made changes to some characters to appeal to a different group of buyers, because their old buyers stopped buying their merchandise

this lie that we tell ourselves that we would go back to buying modern comics, if A B C happened is a lie, we aren't going back, i certainly wouldn't be spending $5 on a new comic, even it was good. I got other responsibilities and choose to spend my money differently.

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:41 PM, 1Cool said:

If anime and manga are the wave of the future in terms of what teens are reading then is it just because of the price point?  Why is anime and manga so cheap if that is the case?

b/w for one, probably being printed on the other side of the world another

[1Cool]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:13 PM, VintageComics said:

Thanks. This is why I chose not to have a debate. It always ends this way (Marvels movie thread for lots more).

-----------------------------

On a positive note, if you all want to know why these companies are NOT successful, how about studying a model that IS successful at selling comics and related products? 

Why is Anime so appealing?

Why is it outgrowing the entire industry?

And why is nobody asking these questions and instead discussing numbering and other non-factors?

Why was the NYC Comic Con, arguably the largest show in the country AND THE FACE OF AMERICAN COMICS in the greatest economic city in the USA completely represented by Anime but underwhelmingly NOT supported by US publishers?

There's a message in there somewhere if you read between the lines. 

This was the MAIN ENTRANCE to the NY Comic Con. Anime took up the most important space in the room and about 1/4 -1/3 of the main showfloor. 

It's hard to describe how big and impressive these displays were unless you saw them in person.

This is what the public saw as they walked in the door. 

Based on these images I can see why young teens and kids like anime.  It looks designed for kids whereas modern comics seem designed for grown adult (mostly males).  But as Janet said - how can you change the look of comics without alienating all us older collectors which has been their bread and butter for decades.  They seem to have painted themselves into a corner.

[1Cool]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:43 PM, jsilverjanet said:

b/w for one, probably being printed on the other side of the world another

Sounds like comics need to go back to fun stories on cheap paper (which are printed on the other side of the world) to get kids reading again.  The only way I'd buy new comics was if they had them for $2 a piece and they were in spinner racks at the super market.  Who am I kidding - even then I'd probably not bother if I missed a couple issues.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

This wasn't meant to be a discussion about which show as better.

Circling back to the Marvel booth, I can show you pictures of how their booth has changed over the years. The most impressive one I saw was over 10 years ago before the Thor movie was about to be released. They literally had Odin's throne there and it was so massive it was as big as any display I'd ever seen at a show. 

Now it's a shell of it's former self. 

Marvel made a decision that at most conventions, it's more about the secondary market. The secondary market doesn't benefit them directly. 

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

This all meaning to say that Marvel's footprint at conventions, on shelves AND in the real world has been shrinking, and Anime's has been growing. 

So why is nobody talking about that? 

I think plenty of people are talking about it.

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

That point is at the crux of this entire discussion.

Wait... two posts back you said, "Putting out a better product and raising better kids were my only two points. That's it. "

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

To the rest of your point, Corporate involvement destroys art. It always has. 

One ONLY cares about profit, the other ONLY cares about art and the two are wholly incompatible like oil and water. 

If the artist gets their way, the corporation makes less profit. 

If the corporation gets their way, the artist puts out a compromised product. 

Not always. HBO changed the way they do business with the Sopranos - they gave the 'creator', once signed, the ability to make the show they wanted to make - not getting involved. And it was huge success, followed by that pattern, leading to more success. 

But yeah... when corporations get involved in the MILLIONS they are investing in an idea - things get muddled most of the time.

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

I can give everyone a zillion examples of how corporations have ruined entire careers of artists and employees. 

Billy Squire. His career was RUINED by corporate involvement. 

His career was ruined by a really unfortunate dance he did in the 'Rock Me Tonight' video.

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

Spider-man 3? Total disaster and Sony admitted there was too much corporate involvement. 

Sony's corporate involvement most definitely made the Spider-man franchise pretty gross. They still were hugely profitable. 

On 11/21/2023 at 2:48 AM, VintageComics said:

These are just a few examples off the top of my head. 

Also, it's important to note that corporate involvement is NOT SHRINKING, IT'S GROWING. You can't escape it anymore. The Corporations are just as influential now as politicians were a few years ago. They literally have their fingers in everything. 

News flash: Not a NEW thing at all. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:34 PM, 1Cool said:

Roy hates to not get in the last word in a discussion

Actually, that's not true. The only time I feel the need to interject these days for 'the last word' is if I'm attacked personally, which has been a daily sport for the same group of people for 3 years now but even that's subsiding. Strangely, when the discussion goes outside of the reach of moderation everyone goes strangely silent. They're quite literally trying to shame me into submission or get me banned. THEY'VE STATED IT OPENLY.

If the discussion stays on point and people simply discuss the message and not the messenger, I genuinely have no problem staying quiet. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:34 AM, 1Cool said:

Roy hates to not get in the last word in a discussion 

He just did it to you!

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:46 AM, 1Cool said:

Based on these images I can see why young teens and kids like anime.  It looks designed for kids whereas modern comics seem designed for grown adult (mostly males). 

Not all... it has its share of material designed for both.

On 11/21/2023 at 3:46 AM, 1Cool said:

But as Janet said - how can you change the look of comics without alienating all us older collectors which has been their bread and butter for decades.  They seem to have painted themselves into a corner.

Manga and Anime are creator driven. Marvel and DC are corporations who see their characters as 100% Investment Properties. 

[Prince Namor]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:53 AM, 1Cool said:

Sounds like comics need to go back to fun stories on cheap paper (which are printed on the other side of the world) to get kids reading again.  The only way I'd buy new comics was if they had them for $2 a piece and they were in spinner racks at the super market.  Who am I kidding - even then I'd probably not bother if I missed a couple issues.

When I want to read comics, something new, I usually pick up a Manga I've been considering. The stories are inspired, sometimes weird, and the stories come from an angle that sometimes surprises me. 

With mainstream Marvel and DC, it's just the same regurgitated ideas I've read for years. It's boring.