COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:11 PM, Prince Namor said:

Marvel IS producing the art form as it sees fit. DC IS producing the art form as it sees fit. The same as Heavy Metal is, the same as Avatar is, the same as Boundless... you think Garth Ennis isn't producing the art form as he sees fit? You think Alan Moore isn't producing the art form as he sees fit?

They're business' who've chosen to produce the art form in the way that they see fit.

That's their CHOICE to feel pressured. Tim Vigil isn't feeling pressure when he does 'Web Witch'. The Comic Book companies still doing 'nude variants' aren't feeling pressured. Garth Ennis hasn't apologized for the way he wrote 'The Boys' and how it's been altered for TV. 

The pressure they feel to change is on THEM. 

Complete nonsense.

Examples?

So... Marvel was an honest business, and 'the man' put pressure on them to change?

 

On 11/19/2023 at 3:12 PM, Prince Namor said:

You're basing that on the Secondary market, which Marvel couldn't care less about. 

I have learned through extensive discussion with you both here and elsewhere that you're very disingenuous when the conversation deepens and so I'm not going to engage in debate with you. I feel it's best for everyone here. 

If you ever want to discuss this stuff in person or privately without the distractions of a cheering audience, I'm down - like when you walked into me in Baltimore 2 years ago or via PM. I'd have been happy to engage but it was just a quick pleasantry and we moved on. 

Thanks for reading my post, though. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:36 AM, VintageComics said:

I have learned through extensive discussion with you both here and elsewhere that you're very disingenuous when the conversation deepens

Deepens? You're the one who goes off the rails if anyone vary's from what YOU are specifically trying to say.

And what you're saying isn't DEEP. Its standard tin foil hat misinformation that all kinds of people are spouting. 

For someone railing against social media - you sure use it 100% to verbally pollute discussions where you can. 

On 11/20/2023 at 3:36 AM, VintageComics said:

and so I'm not going to engage in debate with you. I feel it's best for everyone here. 

You are correct. It is most advantageous for you to discuss these things with others who've gulped down the same Kool-Aid.

On 11/20/2023 at 3:36 AM, VintageComics said:

If you ever want to discuss this stuff in person or privately without the distractions of a cheering audience, I'm down - like when you walked into me in Baltimore 2 years ago or via PM. I'd have been happy to engage but it was just a quick pleasantry and we moved on. 

No no no. I was being polite because, personally, I don't dislike you. Publicly I WANT to be able to say hello and share small talk. 

But I do NOT want to ever discuss this with you. I could NOT hide my contempt. Really. I find it to be grotesque. There'd be no point.

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

Kool-Aid

I prefer complex carbs over sugary sweets. I don't think I've had Kool-Aid in around 30 years.

On 11/19/2023 at 3:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

But I do NOT want to ever discuss this with you. I could NOT hide my contempt. Really. I find it to be grotesque. There'd be no point.

See what I mean? You can't reason logically when emotions rule the discussion. 

That's exactly why I'm out on debating with you. That's a checkmate. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 4:00 AM, VintageComics said:

See what I mean? You can't reason logically when emotions rule the discussion. 

It's not my emotions, it's my common sense. 

[Prince Namor]

Here some examples of major comic book companies... appealing to male readers. Something that... apparently people believe that they're being pressured NOT to do. So why ARE they still doing it but others aren't? 

WARNING: Only look if you're not easily offended...

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Prince Namor

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:12 PM, Prince Namor said:

Here some examples of major comic book companies... appealing to male readers. Something that... apparently people believe that they're being pressured NOT to do.

Porn is really bad for society and I've historically spoken out against using sexual exploitation in comics for as long as I've known about it. 

Especially the sexually charged variant covers, which are just another sugar addict's crack that is being served to keep the revenue stream of a dying industry alive on life support. 

[D2]

On 11/19/2023 at 3:57 PM, Prince Namor said:

Deepens? You're the one who goes off the rails if anyone vary's from what YOU are specifically trying to say.

And what you're saying isn't DEEP. Its standard tin foil hat misinformation that all kinds of people are spouting. 

For someone railing against social media - you sure use it 100% to verbally pollute discussions where you can. 

You are correct. It is most advantageous for you to discuss these things with others who've gulped down the same Kool-Aid.

No no no. I was being polite because, personally, I don't dislike you. Publicly I WANT to be able to say hello and share small talk. 

But I do NOT want to ever discuss this with you. I could NOT hide my contempt. Really. I find it to be grotesque. There'd be no point.

I’ve had enough arguments with my wife to know there are way too many YOU remarks in there to be at all constructive. Combative, to say the least. 
 

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 4:35 PM, D2 said:

I’ve had enough arguments with my wife to know there are way too many YOU remarks in there to be at all constructive. Combative, to say the least. 
 

Thanks. This is why I chose not to have a debate. It always ends this way (Marvels movie thread for lots more).

-----------------------------

On a positive note, if you all want to know why these companies are NOT successful, how about studying a model that IS successful at selling comics and related products? 

Why is Anime so appealing?

Why is it outgrowing the entire industry?

And why is nobody asking these questions and instead discussing numbering and other non-factors?

Why was the NYC Comic Con, arguably the largest show in the country AND THE FACE OF AMERICAN COMICS in the greatest economic city in the USA completely represented by Anime but underwhelmingly NOT supported by US publishers?

There's a message in there somewhere if you read between the lines. 

This was the MAIN ENTRANCE to the NY Comic Con. Anime took up the most important space in the room and about 1/4 -1/3 of the main showfloor. 

It's hard to describe how big and impressive these displays were unless you saw them in person.

This is what the public saw as they walked in the door. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

This was the Marvel display. It was LITERALLY tucked in the back half of the room, BEHIND the Anime stuff.

Underwhelming at best. 

Marvel. MARVEL. The literal Goliath of the last 60 years. 

They were using a power point display that my kids would have used in middle school.

It's like when you go to a bar and they start coming up with excuses on why they don't have your favorite tequila or scotch...and then they go out of business a month later. 

You realize they were on life support but didn't want anyone to know. 

This is what's happening out in the real world. Everyone is too busy pretending things are great while they get displaced by truly great business.

It's called DENIAL. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by VintageComics

[Off Panel]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:13 PM, VintageComics said:

On a positive note, if you all want to know why these companies are NOT successful, how about studying a model that IS successful at selling comics and related products? 

Asking to understand:

Are you saying that Anime (or I guess Manga in the context of comic books) is more successful because they are actually putting in the work to advertise their products? (Something that Marvel could and should do also.)

Or are you saying that Manga can advertise their products because they are having such success? (Something that Marvel may or may not be well-positioned to do right now, depending on who you listen to.)

Just want to make sure I'm taking away the message you intend.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:45 AM, Off Panel said:

Asking to understand:

Are you saying that Anime (or I guess Manga in the context of comic books) is more successful because they are actually putting in the work to advertise their products? (Something that Marvel could and should do also.)

Or are you saying that Manga can advertise their products because they are having such success? (Something that Marvel may or may not be well-positioned to do right now, depending on who you listen to.)

Just want to make sure I'm taking away the message you intend.

He's saying there's a big global conspiracy (a repeated theme in every topic he discusses) that in this instance only Marvel and DC seem to be targeted in. They've been told to 'gay' up their product and they've said, "Yes, sir!"

That's why Marvel and DC are dishonest publishers. That's why they fail.

The others are honest publishers. That's why they succeed.

(Even though, especially in Manga and Anime, there's more LGBT representation than all of the American publishers combined - there's no shortage of exploitation towards women (including straight up porn) as well as the opposite - women in positive, important roles - but also feature a pretty small representation of minority characters.)

 

This is the bizarre thinking of the conspiracy mind... take two topics with no connection - one being a subject you want to continually promote (global conspiracy - 'the man' brainwashing you) and apply it to whatever topic you think is bad. Sprinkle in some real world events and things that SOUND true, and suddenly, people with less Critical Reasoning skills (something we don't teach in American Schools) begin to think they see something...

"They're trying to make me say Xmas instead of Christmas!"

"It's corporations! They're trying make us all become Trans people!"

"What? That makes no sense..."

"Think about it. Isn't Christmas getting more expensive every year?"

"Well, yeah..."

"And who does that benefit?"

"Corporations?"

"Exactly! And aren't your kids, spending more time on social media?"

'Yeah! I hate that!"

"See!"

"Hmmm, maybe there is some truth..."

"It's all there and NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS!"

 

LOL. Sheer lunacy. 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Prince Namor

[comicginger1789]

On 11/18/2023 at 4:26 PM, Off Panel said:

I'm glad to have a relative youngster around, comicginger. (The 1789 at the end of your name led me to believe you were much, much, much older.)

Not only do I appreciate you as a thirty-something collector, I appreciate how active you are on the boards. I've read a ton of your posts over the years.

What's it going to take to bring your peers into this awesome hobby of ours?

Peers? Sadly, no peers I have are into comics. I have met others around my age or younger though but they seem stuck in the 1980-current zone, with a few venturing into the silver age and beyond for their collection.

All I know is I will try my best with my kids haha. And I love these boards. Tiktok and Instagram and other social media platforms are not my forte and I enjoy this mode of communication and learning and discussion above those. This consumes my time but not to the degree some of those other platforms can (and frustrating too to converse with people on there). I also try my hardest as a teacher to suggest comics to the youth. It seems many are Manga fans though (something that I just cannot get into as the art is not something I love) so I feel that is the way of the future for comic collecting youth.

Also for the record, 1789...17 my favourite number and 89 the year I was born

Edited November 20, 2023 by comicginger1789

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:00 PM, Prince Namor said:

He's saying there's a big global conspiracy (a repeated theme in every topic he discusses) that in this instance only Marvel and DC seem to be targeted in. They've been told to 'gay' up their product and they've said, "Yes, sir!"

That's why Marvel and DC are dishonest publishers. That's why they fail.

The others are honest publishers. That's why they succeed.

(Even though, especially in Manga and Anime, there's more LGBT representation than all of the American publishers combined - there's no shortage of exploitation towards women (including straight up porn) as well as the opposite - women in positive, important roles - but also feature a pretty small representation of minority characters.)

 

This is the bizarre thinking of the conspiracy mind... take two topics with no connection - one being a subject you want to continually promote (global conspiracy - 'the man' brainwashing you) and apply it to whatever topic you think is bad. Sprinkle in some real world events and things that SOUND true, and suddenly, people with less Critical Reasoning skills (something we don't teach in American Schools) begin to think they see something...

"They're trying to make me say Xmas instead of Christmas!"

"It's corporations! They're trying make us all become Trans people!"

"What? That makes no sense..."

"Think about it. Isn't Christmas getting more expensive every year?"

"Well, yeah..."

"And who does that benefit?"

"Corporations?"

"Exactly! And aren't your kids, spending more time on social media?"

'Yeah! I hate that!"

"See!"

"Hmmm, maybe there is some truth..."

"It's all there and NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS!"

 

LOL. Sheer lunacy. 

 

 

I said no such thing. 

This is why I don't debate you. You literally twist everything, conflate things nobody said and make things up while making it personal. 

Stop attacking me personally. I don't do the same to you. 

The only reason you'd associate me with conspiracy theory is to attempt to discredit me publicly while not addressing anything I've said. 

It's called cancel culture. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 11/19/2023 at 6:45 PM, Off Panel said:

Asking to understand:

Are you saying that Anime (or I guess Manga in the context of comic books) is more successful because they are actually putting in the work to advertise their products? (Something that Marvel could and should do also.)

Or are you saying that Manga can advertise their products because they are having such success? (Something that Marvel may or may not be well-positioned to do right now, depending on who you listen to.)

Just want to make sure I'm taking away the message you intend.

It was an amalgamation of the two. 

Marvel can advertise all they want but if the product isn't something the public wants, it's lipstick on a pig.

Manga appears to have captured the attention, most of the floor space at the NY Comic Con and apparently, from conversations we've had over the last few months, a significant portion of the market - and growing. 

Manga can afford to advertise because Manga is selling and growing, and Marvel can't because they're not growing. 

We discussed this in the Millar thread a few months ago and I made a lot of similar points (and posted the same pics, so sorry for the repeats but I felt it was necessary in this discussion).

Putting out a better product and raising better kids were my only two points. That's it. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:23 AM, VintageComics said:

I said no such thing. 

This is why I don't debate you. You literally twist everything, conflate things nobody said and make things up while making it personal. 

Unfortunately for you, people have learned to quote what you say, so that we can go back and SHOW you.

It started here:

THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023)

Posted Thursday at 11:38 PM

We WERE DISCUSSING why Marvels has done poorly. 

Many said it was "poor writing", "fatigue", "terrible villains" and whatever else.

I stood on the position that it was the ESG movement influencing corporate decisions from the outside and pressuring movie houses to add more inclusive content into films in the same way ALL CORPORATIONS are being influenced to hire more diverse staff. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming. You quite LITERALLY HAVE LAWS stating this (affirmative action) and those laws have extended into corporate ideologies forming their art and movies. 

————————————————————————————————————

Posted Friday at 12:26 AM (edited)

I've repeatedly stated that the ESG agenda is influencing corporate decision making. That's it.

The only point I've tried to discuss is how much the ESG agenda has influenced corporate decision making and by extension, the art form of making movies and film. 

————————————————————————————————————

Posted Friday at 04:23 AM (edited)

Blackrock "controls the world" the way the US "controls" the world. By imposing it's values on the rest of the world through economic might.

And very specifically you said:

 I don't know if there is an industry Blackrock doesn't have an influence in.

At this point it could construed as COMIC BOOKS as well. All you would need to do is make that connection, which you DID in this thread (as seen below)

————————————————————————————————————

FIRST though, you said: 

Posted Friday at 04:46 AM (edited)

It's a quote DIRECTLY FROM LARRY FINK THE CEO OF BLACKROCK.

BlackRock CEO: “At BlackRock we are forcing behaviors… you have to force behaviors.”

In the same sentence he says "If you don't achieve these levels of impact, your compensation can be impacted."

"If you don't force behaviors regarding gender, or race, or just any way you want to say the composition of your team you're going to be impacted."

————————————————————————————————————

Though jay buck caught you LEAVING out an important part of the quote:

On 11/17/2023 at 5:00 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Very interesting that you omit a VERY key word from your sentence of Larry's quote.

Here was the actual quote, the underlined part you LEFT out:

"What we're doing internally, If you don't achieve these levels of impact, your compensation can be impacted."

And you responded with:

Posted Friday at 05:33 AM (edited)

I didn't do that purposefully, I was trying to limit my words.

————————————————————————————————————

And THEN, very specifically you said, about COMIC BOOKS:

COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED'

Posted 11 hours ago (edited)

The world is very diverse and there are many successful (and unsuccessful businesses) but in order for a business to be successful for the long term, it needs to be honest with itself and allowed to operate freely to produce it's art form as it sees fit. This includes things you don't like. 

Businesses are being pressured and influenced by outside forces. It's happening in every area of life without exception. Every single person reading this feels it, sees it and knows it. 

They are not allowed to operate as they see fit and the internet that was supposed to connect everyone is the single most divisive tool in all of human history. You put out something someone doesn't like and they can destroy your life from their smelly sofa covered in popcorn and soda pop.

————————————————————————————————————

How any one could NOT see the connection you made is blind.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Prince Namor

[kimik]

My file store only does new single issues, trades and youth books. They do not do back issues. They have been growing sales significantly year over year since they opened. And, after looking at financials of the store the owner previously managed (it tanked after he left) when I was considering investing in that one, it is no fluke. If you know your market and have business savvy then you will succeed, just like in any other line of business.

[Prince Namor]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:47 PM, kimik said:

My file store only does new single issues, trades and youth books. They do not do back issues. They have been growing sales significantly year over year since they opened. And, after looking at financials of the store the owner previously managed (it tanked after he left) when I was considering investing in that one, it is no fluke. If you know your market and have business savvy then you will succeed, just like in any other line of business.

I have a friend who runs a shop in the same college town he's been in since 1986. 

He started out with just a part time store. He then became full time. He made it through the mess in the 90's. He made it through the lean years. He made it through the resurgence. And he's making it now. 

He never changed the way he did things. He never listened to hype.

His orders were always 75-80% subscription. Even when he could've upped his orders in the early 90's, he kept it at an even keel. And he outlasted every store within two hours of his, and even most as far north as St. Louis.

With back issues he built a following of people he dealt with and always knew what he could buy and what he could sell. He never over bought, and he almost always paid what he wanted to pay, or he'd let the collection walk.

He COULD have probably made more money... but he never really LOST money. Steady, steady, steady.

And he certainly never listened to Diamond, who for years preached to forget about back issues and just concentrate on new books. 

[lostboys]

Marvel will never die unless they "Men In Black / red light" the whole world into forgetting Spider man.

[VintageComics]

On 11/20/2023 at 1:41 AM, Prince Namor said:

Unfortunately for you, people have learned to quote what you say, so that we can go back and SHOW you.

It started here:

THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023)

Posted Thursday at 11:38 PM

We WERE DISCUSSING why Marvels has done poorly. 

Many said it was "poor writing", "fatigue", "terrible villains" and whatever else.

I stood on the position that it was the ESG movement influencing corporate decisions from the outside and pressuring movie houses to add more inclusive content into films in the same way ALL CORPORATIONS are being influenced to hire more diverse staff. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming. You quite LITERALLY HAVE LAWS stating this (affirmative action) and those laws have extended into corporate ideologies forming their art and movies. 

————————————————————————————————————

Posted Friday at 12:26 AM (edited)

I've repeatedly stated that the ESG agenda is influencing corporate decision making. That's it.

The only point I've tried to discuss is how much the ESG agenda has influenced corporate decision making and by extension, the art form of making movies and film. 

————————————————————————————————————

Posted Friday at 04:23 AM (edited)

Blackrock "controls the world" the way the US "controls" the world. By imposing it's values on the rest of the world through economic might.

And very specifically you said:

 I don't know if there is an industry Blackrock doesn't have an influence in.

At this point it could construed as COMIC BOOKS as well. All you would need to do is make that connection, which you DID in this thread (as seen below)

————————————————————————————————————

FIRST though, you said: 

Posted Friday at 04:46 AM (edited)

It's a quote DIRECTLY FROM LARRY FINK THE CEO OF BLACKROCK.

BlackRock CEO: “At BlackRock we are forcing behaviors… you have to force behaviors.”

In the same sentence he says "If you don't achieve these levels of impact, your compensation can be impacted."

"If you don't force behaviors regarding gender, or race, or just any way you want to say the composition of your team you're going to be impacted."

————————————————————————————————————

Though jay buck caught you LEAVING out an important part of the quote:

On 11/17/2023 at 5:00 AM, jaybuck43 said:

Very interesting that you omit a VERY key word from your sentence of Larry's quote.

Here was the actual quote, the underlined part you LEFT out:

"What we're doing internally, If you don't achieve these levels of impact, your compensation can be impacted."

And you responded with:

Posted Friday at 05:33 AM (edited)

I didn't do that purposefully, I was trying to limit my words.

————————————————————————————————————

And THEN, very specifically you said, about COMIC BOOKS:

COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED'

Posted 11 hours ago (edited)

The world is very diverse and there are many successful (and unsuccessful businesses) but in order for a business to be successful for the long term, it needs to be honest with itself and allowed to operate freely to produce it's art form as it sees fit. This includes things you don't like. 

Businesses are being pressured and influenced by outside forces. It's happening in every area of life without exception. Every single person reading this feels it, sees it and knows it. 

They are not allowed to operate as they see fit and the internet that was supposed to connect everyone is the single most divisive tool in all of human history. You put out something someone doesn't like and they can destroy your life from their smelly sofa covered in popcorn and soda pop.

————————————————————————————————————

How any one could NOT see the connection you made is blind.

I'm not here to discuss people. I'm here to discuss ideas.

Why moderation continues to allow attacks on PEOPLE I don't understand.

People can read the entire locked thread themselves. In fact I think everyone should read it and form their own ideas rather than just read soundbites from the discussion. It's one of the greatest discussions we've had in a long time with lots of nuance and facts that are relevant to this thread and I think they'd learn a lot. Thanks for bringing it up! 

I fully stand by the points I make. 

Carry on. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by VintageComics

[1Cool]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:54 AM, VintageComics said:

I'm not here to discuss people. I'm here to discuss ideas.

Why moderation continues to allow attacks on PEOPLE I don't understand.

People can read the entire locked thread themselves. In fact I think everyone should read it and form their own ideas rather than just read soundbites from the discussion. It's one of the greatest discussions we've had in a long time with lots of nuance and facts that are relevant to this thread and I think they'd learn a lot. Thanks for bringing it up! 

I fully stand by the points I make. 

Carry on. 

Part of saying you will not debate someone is to just not respond when they type things about you.  Even if it's an attack or false - just don't respond since you have made your points enough time that it's not like people are confused by your stance on the stuff he is "attacking" you on.  Report him if you think it's way over the top but just stay strong since he is obviously trying to pull you into a debate that wlll probably get you a strike.