COMIC STORES 2023: 'IT'S NEARLY 2024 AND I'M MORE THAN CONCERNED' 4 4

[Prince Namor]

The little engine that won't. 

[Prince Namor]

Yes, Comics will never die. The way we read them will and already has evolved. 

[Buzzetta]

On 11/14/2023 at 10:06 PM, Nick Furious said:

I get this for newspapers, but for comic books I wonder if the new sales volume decline might have more to do with the abundance of TBP's than with digital media.  When I was a kid, if I didn't buy a comic book off the shelf, there was a risk that I would never get to read it other than buying it as a more expensive back issue.  Now pretty much everything worth reading (and more) gets reprinted as a TPB.  I can be a free-rider of sorts...let other people spend the weekly money sorting out the drek, while I spend my money more strategically, choosing from the stories that made the cut by being reprinted as TBP's.  I suspect there are many middle-aged-to-elderly collectors who only read new comics this way now.   

You could very well be right.  For that I cannot say.  I think that music is more dependent and aligned with shifts in technology than comic books.  Shifts in how physical media is consumed like periodicals is not only dependent on the technology but on consumer trends. 

The TPB is a very good example of a shift in consumer trends where readers want a full story but that is definitely a shift from a monthly periodical. 

[mysterymachine]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:48 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Truth usually is somewhere in the middle right? So, I hear what you saying but I think there is some validity that what others saying is happening and you are saying doesn't happen.  Maybe not as extreme as people make out to be, but its is def there.

#1 culprit, I agree....bad storytelling, but some of those bad stories are a byproduct of trying to be extreme and pandering.  Where even one writer flat out said, "if you don't like my politics then don't buy my book."   Think we can agree that usually is not a great way to sell new comics.

There is an oversaturation of this type of material. New writers think they are breaking boundaries, but these boundaries were broken forty years ago with titles like Sandman and Preacher. And ten years before that, we had Camelot 3000. I wouldn't say that this is the main cause of the decline of comics, but it certainly isn't bringing in more readers. As others have already mentioned price is one of the biggest factors. If Spawn can sell for $1.99, then we are talking about a reachable goal. The whole process of comic publishing needs to be restructured, from the quality of the paper to distribution, to the artists and writers. The more I think about, it the more I realize how unlikely it is for the comic industry to survive.

[Nick Furious]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:28 PM, mysterymachine said:

And ten years before that, we had Camelot 3000.

I had forgotten about that.  

[Nick Furious]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

The TPB is a very good example of a shift in consumer trends where readers want a full story but that is definitely a shift from a monthly periodical. 

I think both a full story and a verification that the story had passed some kind of filter test by being deemed worthy of reprint in a TPB.  It minimizes the risk of disappointment and poorly spent money.  

[ttfitz]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:10 PM, Brock said:

On 11/14/2023 at 4:40 PM, ttfitz said:

So you are talking dollar volume? Yeah, I guess if you continually raise your prices, you can claim an "all time record" in sales. Not really sure that proves anything about the health of the industry, but maybe that's just me.

Although I will note that 10¢ in 1940 had the same buying power as $2.15 now, so if you adjusted for inflation it probably still wouldn't be a true statement.

Dav Pilkey's top 9 comics sold more than 3.3 million copies in 2022, and the "long tail" of his lesser selling books added another 400,000 copies. His top comic in 2021 sold 1.3 million copies. That's not far off the circulations of peak issues in the 1940s.

Is that 1.3 million copies a month, or 1.3 million copies total? Because those examples I gave were for each month - so over the course of the year, we're talking 8-12 million copies. And that was just those few titles - I wouldn't be surprised to find that every comic published today would have been canceled for poor sales back then.

And also note that I am not trying to say there aren't any comics that don't do well or make a profit for their publisher, just that any sort of definition of "all time high" for comic sales now is just ridiculous.

[Brock]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:30 AM, ttfitz said:

Is that 1.3 million copies a month, or 1.3 million copies total? Because those examples I gave were for each month - so over the course of the year, we're talking 8-12 million copies. And that was just those few titles - I wouldn't be surprised to find that every comic published today would have been canceled for poor sales back then.

And also note that I am not trying to say there aren't any comics that don't do well or make a profit for their publisher, just that any sort of definition of "all time high" for comic sales now is just ridiculous.

That’s 1.3 million for a single Pilkey comic. If he could produce them quickly enough, I’m sure they’d sell… and he’ll typically sell a few hundred thousand of it the following year.

Raina Telgemeier has what, 7 or 8 comics she made, and 18 million copies sold? That stacks up pretty well to 8 monthly issues selling 8-12 million copies a year. But my point is that the whole idea of monthly comics is an anachronism, and a failed business model - in the context of the massively successful American comics market, monthly floppies are virtually unknown, and their publishers - like DC and Marvel - are bit players in the industry.

of course, I’m part of the tribe here… I like my monthly superhero floppies. That’s why I’m here… But I’m not so enamoured of them that I believe my own little micro-niche of obscure and old-fashioned collectibles is indicative of where the industry is at as a whole.

[Math Teacher]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:57 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Whats "waken?"  I might also find the term utterly ridiculous if I know what is means.

I mis-typed that. It should have been "waken." I will fix it now.

[Math Teacher]

On 11/15/2023 at 7:18 AM, Math Teacher said:

I mis-typed that. It should have been "waken." I will fix it now.

Damn. It happened again.

[Dr. Balls]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:09 PM, Prince Namor said:

The little engine that won't. 

As a former record collector, I agree. As much as I reeeeeallllly wanted to like going back to vinyl - getting up every 15 minutes to flip the side was really disjointing to whatever I was doing. Not that it's a big deal, but I think society is so used to non-stop music listening that if you're working, or socializing or even relaxing - that moment where you have to get up to turn the record over is a foreign experience now.

It's such a minor thing to complain about, but it's a pretty common lament.

[Stefan_W]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:48 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

#1 culprit, I agree....bad storytelling, but some of those bad stories are a byproduct of trying to be extreme and pandering.  Where even one writer flat out said, "if you don't like my politics then don't buy my book."   Think we can agree that usually is not a great way to sell new comics.

I agree that it is not the best way to sell to the current comic crowd. But the current comic crowd skews older and male, and unless the audience broadens out comics are dead in the long term. You are definitely right that being viewed as pandering can be off-putting, but the "waken" label that is endlessly tossed around has become a meme of ridiculous proportions. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Stefan_W

[NewWorldOrder]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:23 AM, Math Teacher said:

Damn. It happened again.

Glad you are not teaching English then!

Waken Waken Waken

Edited November 15, 2023 by NewWorldOrder

[ttfitz]

On 11/14/2023 at 11:56 PM, Brock said:

Raina Telgemeier has what, 7 or 8 comics she made, and 18 million copies sold? That stacks up pretty well to 8 monthly issues selling 8-12 million copies a year. But my point is that the whole idea of monthly comics is an anachronism, and a failed business model - in the context of the massively successful American comics market, monthly floppies are virtually unknown, and their publishers - like DC and Marvel - are bit players in the industry.

of course, I’m part of the tribe here… I like my monthly superhero floppies. That’s why I’m here… But I’m not so enamoured of them that I believe my own little micro-niche of obscure and old-fashioned collectibles is indicative of where the industry is at as a whole.

Ah, I see where the problem is - you responded to my disputing that "comic sales are at an all time high" to say that "comics are selling well for some people" which I've never argued with.

[justadude]

On 11/15/2023 at 11:27 AM, ttfitz said:

Ah, I see where the problem is - you responded to my disputing that "comic sales are at an all time high" to say that "comics are selling well for some people" which I've never argued with.

It's not some people. Again, almost everyone on this board equates superhero comics with comics more broadly.

On 11/15/2023 at 8:58 AM, Stefan_W said:

I agree that it is not the best way to sell to the current comic crowd. But the current comic crowd skews older and male, and unless the audience broadens out comics are dead in the long term.

Absolutely not true. Kids are reading comics, a whole lot more than adults reading comics as 15 of the top 20 sellers in 2022 were childrens and middle aged titles. They just aren't reading superhero comics which weren't even in the TOP 250 titles sold. And who would blame them for not reading a genre where less than 5% of published stories EVER were any good?

The whole discussion just confirms again and again how narrow-sighted collectors on this board, and collectors in general, really are. They collect specific eras or artists or titles because they are so sure they're the "best" era in some way. It's an incredibly limited view and one that furthers their own egotism to think the only thing that matters is what they like.

Superhero comics =/= comics.

Thank _________ god.

Edited November 15, 2023 by justadude

[Math Teacher]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:30 PM, justadude said:

The whole discussion just confirms again and again how narrow-sighted collectors on this board, and collectors in general, really are.

As is often said here on this board, collect what you like. I am mainly interested in SA Marvel and DC books, with an occasional GA book. I have tried several non-superhero series (Fables, Saga, Y - The Last Man, Preacher, Sandman, just to name a few). I gave up on Fables around issue #150 and Saga around issue #50, but I read the other series beginning to end. I read all these series via TPB. So, I have sampled books that do not pertain to superheroes, as I am sure that many other people here have. I even read a manga TPB called One Piece that I student loaned to me. I finished it, but it was a struggle. I really have no interest in reading other manga books, regardless of how popular they are with other people. Yes, I am quite focused on what I like, but I don't feel that makes me narrow-sighted. I well aware that there are other genres besides super-heroes, as I have tried them, but they are just not my cup of tea.

Quite honestly, and I know this may sound harsh, but I really have no stake in whether more comic books stores go out of business. I am currently not their client, as I don't buy new comics anymore. I like to visit my local comic book store (Krypton Comics in Omaha) every once in a while, but they seldom have any books that I want. Currently, I am trying to finish JLA #1 - #10, Atom #1 - #10, and Hawkman #1 - #10 in slabs. As long as there are back issue dealers and Ebay available to me, I will be happy as a clam.

[Robot Man]

On 11/15/2023 at 8:02 AM, Dr. Balls said:

As a former record collector, I agree. As much as I reeeeeallllly wanted to like going back to vinyl - getting up every 15 minutes to flip the side was really disjointing to whatever I was doing. Not that it's a big deal, but I think society is so used to non-stop music listening that if you're working, or socializing or even relaxing - that moment where you have to get up to turn the record over is a foreign experience now.

It's such a minor thing to complain about, but it's a pretty common lament.

They are also used to carpy digital music on tiny earbuds. The quality of analog music played on tube equipment with modern efficient speakers is so much superior.

I did convert a lot of my vinyl to wave files on my 260 gig IPod. Kept all the bandwidth and warmth with having the modern convenience. 

[Robot Man]

Although, I don’t frequent comic shops on a regular basis, I would hate to see them go the way of the dinosaur.

In my lifetime, I have seen book stores both new and used, and record stores pretty much bite the dust. All places that were great places to hang out with like minded people.

[Book Guy]

As far as 'wakeness' being a problem if retailers say their customers are complaining then it is a problem, no matter whether it's important or unimportant to me or you. However, if 'Awakened' comics are drawing more new customers in that they are driving out then it might be a net plus. My guess is that quantifying the difference would be tough...At any rate it seems it is a problem of some sort.

I still buy floppies, but rarely Marvel or DC. I mostly buy indies, but mostly the more mainstream titles like Hellboy, Ed Brubaker titles etc. I did buy the 12 Issue Kamandi Jam Series a couple of years ago and enjoyed that. Also some Batman Books which came out about the same time. The Kamandi Series ended, but I stopped buying Batman because they cost too much, though I liked the stories and the art. With Marvel and DC there is simply too much product and I don't have an obvious entry point into the current happenings in either domain. Many of the Indie titles are limited series that have a planned story arc and I find that more satisfying than jumping into the middle of a neverending Serial which is what both the Marvel and DC Universes are.

I agree that the big 2 should move to a more graphic novel system of publishing. It opens the market when Comics are published in Book form. You get a complete story arc (sometimes) and often the Trade Paperbacks are reasonably priced. As an Ed Brubaker fan I like the way his Books are published now-as stand alone volumes.

A personal peeve on my part is that I don't like the slick paper most moderns are printed on and sometimes would prefer the old fashioned newsprint. On some titles the slick paper and very vivid colors work, so this technical change is a mixed blessing.

Even the majors began a mass distribution program aping what we remember from our youth (Comics in racks at 7-11s, Drug Stores etc) and published at a low price point on cheap paper etc I doubt they could bring back mass consumption of floppies.

[The humble Watcher lurking]

On 11/15/2023 at 9:07 PM, Book Guy said:

Even the majors began a mass distribution program aping what we remember from our youth (Comics in racks at 7-11s, Drug Stores etc) and published at a low price point on cheap paper etc I doubt they could bring back mass consumption of floppies.

Agreed, as a lot of people don`t even go to the stores anymore because they have their food or other products delivered to them by Walmart Plus, Door Dash, and Amazon Prime. Sadly, not many people are going to 7-11s anymore. The world is vastly different from when I bought comic books at the corner drugstore.