Why are cartoon comics not as popular with collectors as superhero comics are? 3 3

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:05 PM, sfcityduck said:

There was high quality DC material prior to Action 1.

If DC had ended as a business on Jan 1, 1937, they would be discussed as much as Centaur has been.  They were neither commercially nor artistically important.

On 11/22/2023 at 2:05 PM, sfcityduck said:

Looking just at DC, they went from 1 title in 1/35, to 4 titles (1 w/ superhero story) in 1/39, to 5 titles in 1/40 (all w/ a superhero story), to 10 titles in 1943 (all with superheroes). But in 1/44 DC again had a title with no superheroes, 2 non-superhero titles in 1/45, 5 non-superhero titles as of 1/46, and by 1/47 of 19 titles there were no superhero stories in 7. The thing is though, 1/47 was the highpoint of DC superhero titles for the 1935-1950 era with 12 titles with superhero stories. January 1948 held steady with 7 titles with non-superheroes but only 10 titles with superheroes. January 1949 featured 18 titles 9 without superhero stories and 9 with. January 1950 featured 20 titles with 12 non-superhero titles and 8 with superheroes.

In my longer post above on comic book ages (in green), I note that the edge of an age is never crisp and that there will be outliers.  My general description for the Atomic Age is that superheros declined and the rest of the market grew so that it became just one of many genres of the Atomic Age. 

DC is the outlier with respect to superheros, as they published the quintessential superhero trio of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman who have been in print continuously for over 80 years.  Superheros fell off a cliff at the other publishers, so that, by the time 1950 rolls around, DC is practically the only superhero game in town, but in a market that has exploded in a number of other directions leaving the supers with a 4% share (per Gerber).

I often present summaries on various topics as part of my day job.  I usually preface them with a qualification that, in doing so, I'm leaving out some exceptions and details that, while they may be interesting, do not contradict or discredit the larger narrative.   At work, and on the Boards, I'm always happy to dive into details should the audience have the time and interest.

[IngelsFan]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:24 AM, adamstrange said:

I personally think the Atomic Age is best described as starting with the dropping of the Atomic Bomb and ending with the advent of the Code.

This 100%!

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:42 AM, stormflora said:

For someone who is an amateur to the comic scene, what exactly is the Comics Code and how did it influence the entire scene?

 

In March and April of 1955 all comics except Dell subscribed to the Comics Code (a censorship entity) so that their books could appear on newsstands and be sold.  All subscribers had to put this ugly little Code Symbol on their books.  This lasted until about 2011. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Tri-ColorBrian

[sfcityduck]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:09 PM, adamstrange said:

If DC had ended as a business on Jan 1, 1937, they would be discussed as much as Centaur has been.  They were neither commercially nor artistically important.

In my longer post above on comic book ages (in green), I note that the edge of an age is never crisp and that there will be outliers.  My general description for the Atomic Age is that superheros declined and the rest of the market grew so that it became just one of many genres of the Atomic Age. 

DC is the outlier with respect to superheros, as they published the quintessential superhero trio of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman who have been in print continuously for over 80 years.  Superheros fell off a cliff at the other publishers, so that, by the time 1950 rolls around, DC is practically the only superhero game in town, but in a market that has exploded in a number of other directions leaving the supers with a 4% share (per Gerber).

I often present summaries on various topics as part of my day job.  I usually preface them with a qualification that, in doing so, I'm leaving out some exceptions and details that, while they may be interesting, do not contradict or discredit the larger narrative.   At work, and on the Boards, I'm always happy to dive into details should the audience have the time and interest.

I always have an interest.  We all have only limited time.

DC pioneered 100% original comics in 1934. By 1935, Siegel & Shuster were already doing Doctor Occult (pre-Superman) at DC and started Federal Men in 1936. Other artists working at DC prior to 1/37 included Creig Flessel and Leo O'Mealia. As of January 1936, 30% of the titles on the stands were published by DC (3 of 10 titles). It was a small industry and it was a significant player. But, then again, they all were at that time. DC was a quality participant.

DC wasn't the outlier on superheroes, it was the standard bearer and biggest publisher. Timely is out of superheros by January 1950 (except Venus which is really now a genre title), but Fawcett, Quality, and Harvey still are putting out superheroes. DC had, of course, started Superboy in 1949 and keeps the core titles. Timely is back in August 1950 with Marvel Boy who runs into 1951, and then back again in 1953 with Cap. America, Human Torch, and Subby, who run until Oct. 1955. DC adds Superman's Pal in 1954. Other companies are also testing out superheroes at various points prior to Showcase 4. But it is no longer the dominant genre. I agree the CCA contributes to the revival of superheroes as a major genre, but that really doesn't happen in any significant way until 1958-1959 when Lois Lane and Flash graduate to their own titles, so it was a very slow burn that cannot really be seen as entirely caused by the CCA given the delay from its 1954 implementation to Showcase 4 to Flash 105.

I love the terms "pre-Code", "post-Code", and "PCH" to explain the 1950s, but the "Atomic Age" concept does nothing for me. It doesn't explain anything important in the comic industry. A-Bomb covers and communist menace material survived after the CCA was implemented. If we're talking superheros, the original conceptions of GA and SA really make the most sense.  If we're talking the broader comic market with all of its genres, then the "ages" really don't help much. They end up becoming very very short and irrelevant. Your GA is only six to eight years long and ignores all other genres. Your atomic age is only eight years long and starts the SA on a date that has nothing to do with second age of superhero comics (its in the mid-point of the failed Atlas revival).

Edited November 22, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:09 PM, adamstrange said:

My general description for the Atomic Age is that superheros declined and the rest of the market grew so that it became just one of many genres of the Atomic Age. 

I say it starts with Atoman #1...cause, well, he was Atomic...and cool...

[MrBedrock]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:09 PM, adamstrange said:

If DC had ended as a business on Jan 1, 1937, they would be discussed as much as Centaur has been.  They were neither commercially nor artistically important.

Yep.

[MrBedrock]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:48 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

On 11/22/2023 at 2:09 PM, adamstrange said:

 

I say it starts with Atoman #1...cause, well, he was Atomic...and cool...

Let's start at the beginning of 1946...

 

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:53 PM, MrBedrock said:

Let's start at the beginning of 1946...

 

Well, that one just isn't as cool as Atoman...

[MrBedrock]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:55 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

Well, that one just isn't as cool as Atoman...

Can't say I disagree.

[sfcityduck]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:48 PM, Tri-ColorBrian said:

I say it starts with Atoman #1...cause, well, he was Atomic...and cool...

I love that book. Jerry Robinson cover shows that the post-war GA had attempts to create more superheroes.  At the other end, Powell's 1955 Avenger for ME has a similar but even more modern look.

Edited November 22, 2023 by sfcityduck

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:56 PM, sfcityduck said:

I love that book. Jerry Robinson cover shows that the post-war GA had attempts to create more superheroes.  At the other end, Powell's Avenger for ME has a similar but even more modern look.

 

I collect certain Powell books for the covers, and I was not aware of The Avenger.  Thanks for mentioning that...

[Kromak]

I would say Silver age starts for real in 58, for the reasons mentioned above of Flash and Lois Lane getting their own titles and also because silver age Superman starts for real with Action Comics 241.

 

To answer the original question, I would add that's mainly an US Cultural thing. Outside it and a few countries (mainly English speaker countries), cartoon books were and still are very popular. Mainly Disney comics that were as or more popular than super-heroes since the 50's

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:53 PM, MrBedrock said:

Let's start at the beginning of 1946...

 

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with TCB on this one:

[Tri-Color Brian]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:58 PM, adamstrange said:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with TCB on this one:

 

TCB for the WIN!

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

DC pioneered 100% original comics in 1934. By 1935, Siegel & Shuster were already doing Doctor Occult (pre-Superman) at DC and started Federal Men in 1936. Other artists working at DC prior to 1/37 included Creig Flessel and Leo O'Mealia. As of January 1936, 30% of the titles on the stands were published by DC (3 of 10 titles). It was a small industry and it was a significant player. But, then again, they all were at that time. DC was a quality participant.

I love some of the early DC covers and interiors, but they did not break any ground artistically as they were only sometimes up to the level of syndicated strips,and there were no new concepts until Superman. 

DC was not the first company producing original content as there were weekly freebies put out by a gasoline company and DC's start was preceded by one shots like Detective Dan.  Wheeler-Nicholson was not doing well financially, and the company might not have survived in any form save the takeover by Donenfeld.

Quote

As of January 1936, 30% of the titles on the stands were published by DC (3 of 10 titles).

This is like talking about the best bassoon player in Poughkeepsie. 

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 4:41 PM, sfcityduck said:

DC wasn't the outlier on superheroes, it was the standard bearer and biggest publisher. Timely is out of superheros by January 1950 (except Venus which is really now a genre title), but Fawcett, Quality, and Harvey still are putting out superheroes. DC had, of course, started Superboy in 1949 and keeps the core titles. Timely is back in August 1950 with Marvel Boy who runs into 1951, and then back again in 1953 with Cap. America, Human Torch, and Subby, who run until Oct. 1955. DC adds Superman's Pal in 1954. Other companies are also testing out superheroes at various points prior to Showcase 4. But it is no longer the dominant genre. I agree the CCA contributes to the revival of superheroes as a major genre, but that really doesn't happen in any significant way until 1958-1959 when Lois Lane and Flash graduate to their own titles, so it was a very slow burn that cannot really be seen as entirely caused by the CCA given the delay from its 1954 implementation to Showcase 4 to Flash 105.

I love the terms "pre-Code", "post-Code", and "PCH" to explain the 1950s, but the "Atomic Age" concept does nothing for me. It doesn't explain anything important in the comic industry. A-Bomb covers and communist menace material survived after the CCA was implemented. If we're talking superheros, the original conceptions of GA and SA really make the most sense.  If we're talking the broader comic market with all of its genres, then the "ages" really don't help much. They end up becoming very very short and irrelevant. Your GA is only six to eight years long and ignores all other genres. Your atomic age is only eight years long and starts the SA on a date that has nothing to do with second age of superhero comics (its in the mid-point of the failed Atlas revival).

My super-duper high level summary of comics.

Platinum Age (1900? - 1932) 

• comic books (not magazines) of syndicated strip reprints. 

Golden Age (1933 - 1945 Aug)

• Beginning of the newsstand comic with original material
• Creation of the superhero
• Widespread, commercially successful medium based on superhero genre, which were often very involved in WWII stories

Atomic Age (1945 Sep - 1955 Mar)

• Decline of the superhero
• Flowering of comics in every genre with stories/art targeting the same segments of the population as books/movies leading to comics greatest penetration
• Excess of gore/impropriety/immodesty leading to comics blamed for juvenile delinquency, leading to Comics Code, which, along with rise of TV, imploded the market

Silver Age

• That's a different forum... and they have their own arguments about when it started!

[sfcityduck]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:30 PM, adamstrange said:

My super-duper high level summary of comics.

Platinum Age (1900? - 1932) 

• comic books (not magazines) of syndicated strip reprints. 

Golden Age (1933 - 1945 Aug)

• Beginning of the newsstand comic with original material
• Creation of the superhero
• Widespread, commercially successful medium based on superhero genre, which were often very involved in WWII stories

Atomic Age (1945 Sep - 1955 Mar)

• Decline of the superhero
• Flowering of comics in every genre with stories/art targeting the same segments of the population as books/movies leading to comics greatest penetration
• Excess of gore/impropriety/immodesty leading to comics blamed for juvenile delinquency, leading to Comics Code, which, along with rise of TV, imploded the market

Silver Age

• That's a different forum... and they have their own arguments about when it started!

I like the GA being 1933 to Aug 1945 and Atomic Age Sept. 1945 to Mar. 1955 better than the timeline you were floating up thread.  But, why does the Atomic Age end March 1955?

 

 

[Namtak]

Old style cartoons are still quite apreciated today(in many format ).especially thanks to new stuff like the game cuphead we see new people interested in collecting old cartoon comics again!

[adamstrange]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:28 PM, sfcityduck said:

I like the GA being 1933 to Aug 1945 and Atomic Age Sept. 1945 to Mar. 1955 better than the timeline you were floating up thread.  But, why does the Atomic Age end March 1955?

 

 

Last of the pre-code books were cover dated March '55. 

Going strictly by date placed on the newsstand for the vast majority of books, Dec 1954 would be the better end date.

[davet75]

Thanks to @adamstrange and @sfcityduck for this thoughtful and insightful discussion!  Your comments have added significant depth and detail to my understanding of comic genres and ages that I collect.  Both of you have valid points and I will be mentally logging much of this information as I enjoy our hobby.  All this without even a single moderator warning.  Way to keep it classy!